How will the Wall fall?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

The description of the first book, presumably approved by Mr. Martin himself, says this:

Long ago, in a time forgotten, a preternatural event threw the seasons out of balance.

There was also a direct indication that there is a magical explanation for the irregular seasons, and so presumably there was a time before seasons became irregular: SSM.

The likeliest explanation based on what details we have is that the Others were in some way involved in throwing the seasons out of balance.

Wow I had completely forgotten that blurb for AGoT! I did remember that SSM but I’m holding out on reaching a conclusion irt the Others until we have more info. Actually, I’d settle for some info, any actual info.

 

[Many-Faced Votary]

Another reason I think two books isn't enough.  The actual fantasy content needs its own time to develop and such.

[chrisdaw]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

As in, the massive ice cube the Wall is transforms into an ice dragon?

I don’t get it… Jon and Dany shagging against the Wall - and let me say, if I’m understanding this correctly, someone may suffer from frostbite on their bum - and this will trap Stannis’s soul in the Wall?

Which vow? 

How will Dany glamor herself? 

Yes the ice dragon will be formed from the wall's ice. It may just turn from wall to dragon or the dragon may rise from the ice rubble of the wall after it falls.

I don't think Jon and Dany will be involved in Stannis' or Shireen's soul entering or being stuck in the wall, that'll be all Mel and Stannis. We are first introduced to a magically warded wall with Davos, and the whole point is Shadow Stannis can't pass through the wall. Now Stannis and Mel have landed on top of another magically warded wall (same worded used at Storm's End as for the Wall), at a Shadow Tower, and the text keeps throwing out the imagery of their shadows upon the wall, and there's stories about ghosts/monsters roaming the wall at night and people having been trapped in the ice. I think the iron cage may act as something of an egg, maybe Shadow Stannis gets stuck/trapped in it.

Jon and Dany coupling will occur at the time of the fall of the wall or rise of the dragon. It doesn't have to play a role, it just has to be perceived by Jon to have played a role. But I do think it will play a role, probably I think Dany will bleed in the act of conception, some of her blood, doesn't have to be more than a drop really, will land/smudge on the wall, and that'll be enough to give it life, and Stannis/Shireen who are already trapped in the wall will awaken as the wall's (ice dragon's) master.

Like how Viserys went into the cream egg after he died, but it's not until Rhaego's sacrifice do the eggs, including Viserys/Viserion, awaken. The child is what animates it.

The NW vow, wall holds so long as the NW hold true - father no children specifically.

Melisandre will glamour Dany as Ygritte. Melisandre has already done it to herself, she knows what Ygritte is to Jon (what do you know of my heart priestess?). Melisandre believes in all magics and prophesies that Dany will believe she has to fulfill and so will want to help Dany. There is power in king's blood. It seems it has to happen where Ygritte died near or at the base of the LC's tower, as that seems to be the connection Mel relied on when she glamoured as Ygritte.

A great deal of the Ygritte text is centered around foreshadowing or playing to the themes of this event. The wildlings culture has been built up around it, how they steal wives and why wouldn't Ygritte want a man if he were so clever as to steal her? Dany is Bael, the great hero and raider, or robber and murderer, depending on where you stand. Ygritte insists to Jon that they both have Bael's blood. Bael is actually derived from Balerion, Jon is the blue winter rose of Winterfell she's coming to pluck - by deception.

And the event is foreshadowed around about the place. Danny Flint plays up the woman at the wall and disguise angle. Dancy is a whore who looks like Ygritte who must get her lord to choose her or she'll lose her black pearls. They're both named for Dany.

[sweetsunray]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The magic failing thus allowing the Others to pass is the explanation that makes the most sense to me. But that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make: wouldn’t that be hugely anticlimactic for all those who have been expecting and talking about the Wall literally falling, as in crumbling down? Also, not sure what you mean by the Wall being “vaporised”? Like, it’s there and then poof, it’s gone? Because that would also be anticlimactic for the reasons already stated. 
The main thing I’m thinking about here is how will Martin handle the event while managing expectations readers have and have had for a long time now of a spectacularly apocalyptic event, because it would be so easy for the whole thing to be a huge anticlimactic ‘meh’.

It is indeed not what readers have imagined: thinking about the physical wall falling, but what matters is the magical one. Just look at Bloodraven's cave. There's no wall in front of the entrance. Animals and people can go in and out. But not the wights or the Others. So, the whole physical wall can drop, and the Others and wights still could not pass. But the Wall still standing, and the Others being able to pass through is the real danger.

I think George set it up to be happening the moment Jon's blood hit the icy ground beneath his feet and that ice ground is connected to the Wall after that snowstorm blowing everything against the Wall. First, people at Castle Black will see wights being raised (Patrek and lichyard corpses) and as this mayhem happens, a few Others walk through, as if coming through a mist. I think Jon will come back to his own body and kill an Other with Longclaw (averting the immediate crisis). But that's when readers and people at the Wall will realize there is nothing truly standing in between them and the Others, even if the physical Wall still stands. That's when the dread can truly sink in.

I do not think that is anticlimatic, because it is already happening, before most readers expect it to happen. Horror, rather than blow-up disaster

 

[The Gizzard of Oz]

Grief will drive Bran to blow the magic horn and topple the wall to let the white walkers ruin Westeros. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

Just now, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Grief will drive Bran to blow the magic horn and topple the wall to let the white walkers ruin Westeros. 

At least grief is something new and different from evil and madness.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Methinks we need a musical thread, certain tunes for certain events, past and future. 

I'm actually a little surprised we don't see a few more musical threads. Not only the idea of setting some scenes to a soundtrack but also catching musical references or inspirations in the work.  THe story is a SONG of Ice and Fire after all and if the guy has room to nod at the 3 stooges, his favorite football teams, his most hated football coach, sci fi and horror and comic book classics from his youth, etcetera, etcetera I have troubles believing that a song or two that touched him over the years wouldn't have made an appearance. Course I haven't caught any, but that doesn't rule them out.

[kissdbyfire]

@Aejohn the Conqueroo, we do have the wonderful weirwoods for one.

 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 2/15/2023 at 7:18 PM, chrisdaw said:

I am sure that the wall forms the ice dragon and it is Stannis's second life.

I think Stannis and/or Shireen's soul gets stuck in the wall, maybe Stannis as his shadow self gets stuck in there, maybe his human self dies while he's in shadow mode. The wall will fall, maybe this brings it down or maybe the next event I describe below does, maybe it's all the one thing or the wall falls then the ice dragon comes into being as two separate events, I am not sure, but the soul(s) of Stannis/Shireen will animate the ice of the wall and form the ice dragon.

Jon will impregnate Dany at the wall, against it probably, and it will either play a role in the process of the wall falling (and/or ice dragon forming) or it will simply happen concurrently. Jon will view it as his fault, that the wall fell because the Night's Watch, him specifically, forsook the vow, and he will struggle under the weight of that shame.

That's what this passage below is about, Jon is the sun, and this is the shameful deed no-one will know about.

To get Jon to impregnate her Dany will be glamoured as Ygritte, so Ygritte will in a way have her victory, the pay off for this moderately forced scene and her feelings.

https://i.imgflip.com/2/1evx2r.jpg

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Aejohn the Conqueroo, we do have the wonderful weirwoods for one.

 

Yeah, I never thought of that.  Should have been clued in by the Touch of Grey on the Stark's banner lol

[Corvo the Crow]

On 2/15/2023 at 11:04 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Pretty straightforward: how do you think the Wall comes down? Full disclosure, I’m not convinced it will happen. But above all else, I don’t see how can it happen w/o killing everyone within a certain radius and also w/o its fall having far-reaching consequences. And I’m not talking about the magic or the Others coming south or whatever, but just that amount of ice/water + the physical force of it all. And it can’t just melt slowly or something b/c that would be a drag in terms of storytelling. I find it easier to depict a metaphorical fall, where the magic within it fails than a literal fall of a 700ft high 300mi long ice cube. 

Not by Horn of Joramun. Which indeed brought the wall down in a sense. Joramun was most likely a member of the Watch, the Horn of the vowmen, who "brought the wall down" with Brandon Stark's help. In fact, considering how the castles on the wall have destroyed, he really did bring the wall down. I was going to make a thread on him some weeks back but couldn't bring myself to do it as I just don't feel like quote searching.

 

vowmen:

 

Oh and check this thread I've made for you as well 

Really, I was going to post these as part of that other thread that I still haven't brought myself up to open but made this thread for you.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:18 PM, Curled Finger said:

I know you are not a Jon fan so that's not where I mean to go with the question.  Do you mean to take the position that the Wall and Watch are interchangeable entities?  I've been wondering this throughout the topic.  Both would be magical in their way dependent upon each other for protection in the end.  The Watch has failed its purpose thereby weakening the Wall?  

The crack is not literal. It’s a weakening of the Night’s Watch organization. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

25 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The crack is not literal. It’s a weakening of the Night’s Watch organization. 

Caused by Marsh and his bigoted sycophants 

[csuszka1948]

On 2/15/2023 at 8:30 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I suppose it could… but wouldn’t that be kind of anticlimactic? The Wall that everyone’s been waiting to see fall, the one many have been calling ‘Chekhov's Wall’ for decades, is just simply changed from this huge and powerful ice structure (w/ gravel, wood, and gods know what else mixed in) into a pile of powdery snow? 

The Wall doesn't need to come down, only the magic that keeps the dead from passing through it needs to fall. 

[csuszka1948]

I also believe that the Wall will come down - or more likely, the magic that keeps the wights and Others from passing through the Wall will fall - by blowing the Horn of Winter, which is currently in the possession of Samwell Tarly, in Oldtown.

This would explain why is the horn the (current) cover on the Winds of Winter book - because it will play a crucial role in the events to come.

How will this happen? I also believe that this will be the result of Euron at Oldtown, but I think narratively it would make more sense if SAM would blow the horn, choosing his love to Gilly over his duty. I will refer to the comment of YezenIRL:

Here is how I expect the confrontation between Sam and Euron to play out:

"And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where that shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top. Perhaps that was why Lord Leyton had not made the descent in more than a decade, preferring to rule his city from the clouds." - Prologue AFFC

Here the Hightower is connected to the Wall, and both are said to be magical constructions of Brandon the Builder, indicating that they are both connected to the magic of Sam's Horn of Joramun. /u/BryndenBFish gives a pretty good run down on Sam's horn being the true horn here.

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not." - Samwell V, AFFC

In TWOW, things will not go as planned and Gilly will not go to horn hill, instead opting to stay with Samwell. This is key, as Maester Aemon makes a big fuss about love beign the death of duty, and Sam and Gilly have only recently become lovers, and Sam has yet to be challenged to do his duty because of it. At some point, Samwell is going to meet Leyton Hightower and the Mad Maid, who have locked themselves up at the top of the Hightower to study magic and prophecy. The Mad Maid is likely prophetic herself, likely a modern analogue to Daenys the Dreamer. They will take an interest in Sam's cracked horn, and so Sam will be able to leave Gilly, Aemon, and the Horn of Winter.

Side note: At some point, Jaqen/NotPate/No One will try to kill Sam on the Isle of Ravens, but Sam will be warned by ravens (Bran and Bloodraven) and so Sam the Slayer will slay a Faceless Man.

In the climax of TWOW, the Ironborn will attack Oldtown (having defeated the Redwyne Fleet with krakens, sorry), and Sam will run to the Hightower to protect Gilly. The Mad Maid will tell Sam that Euron is coming for the horn, and that he must destroy it. Sam and Gilly w/ baby Aemon will run to the top of the Hightower so that Sam can burn the horn, but Euron will arrive on dragon back. Sam will be about to throw the horn in the fire, but Euron will threaten him. Blow the horn three times, or the girl and the baby die.

"for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty." . . . "What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." - Maester Aemon

Samwell will be forced to choose, blow the horn, or let Gilly die. And of course, Sam will do as Euron says. He will blow the horn, once, twice, and a third time. Three blows for Others. In exchange Euron will spare Sam and Gilly, sadistically letting Sam live with his decision. In the North, this will bring down the Wall, and serve as Sam's low point, giving way to his redemption in ADOS.

That is how Samwell Tarly of HORN HILL, Brother of the Night's Watch and HORN THAT WAKES THE SLEEPERS, analogue to Heimdallr the Norse watchmen god of wisdom, carrier of the Gjallarhorn, will sound the Horn of Winter, that WAKES giants from the earth and brings down the Wall... just as Heimdallr sounds the Gjallarhorn to signal the start of Ragnarok.

I mean... the horn is on the cover of TWOW...

[chrisdaw]

That the horn on the slated cover of TWOW is the horn of Winter is an assumption.

[LynnS]

On 2/17/2023 at 9:00 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Not by Horn of Joramun. Which indeed brought the wall down in a sense. Joramun was most likely a member of the Watch, the Horn of the vowmen, who "brought the wall down"

I think there is something to this.  When was the horn made?  Perhaps at the same time that the Wall was first made and given to the NW  for some reason.   Perhaps having something to do with waking the sleepers as stated in the oath of the NW.  I'm inclined to think that the horn is meant to marshal supernatural powers in aid of the Watch rather than destroying the wards at the Wall; but to strengthen them or give some power to the one blowing the horn.

[three-eyed monkey]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:23 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I’m holding out on reaching a conclusion irt the Others until we have more info. Actually, I’d settle for some info, any actual info.

I think Old Nan's tales give us much more about the Others than most people think.

With regard to the OP, I have a few thoughts on this. I believe there are two elements to the Wall, it's not just the physical structure but there's a magical ward too. I refer to Old Nan again.

Quote

but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true.

The men of the night's watch must be true. I think this is a reference to their oaths. As long as the Night's Watch keep true to their vow to protect the realm then the Others cannot pass. If they fail to do this, then the ward is broken and the Others can pass. I think the Watch has lost sight of its purpose and the ward was broken in Jon XIII, so all that remains to be overcome is the physical structure. It also ties in to Ned's saying, a wall is only as good as the men who guard it.

The horn is the obvious answer as to how it might fall, and I agree that Sam has the real horn and will blow it. I've often wondered about the rubble too, it would be hundreds of feet high. But if its a horn then we're talking sound frequency, and there is a frequency you can hit that will shatter a glass into a million pieces, so I wonder if that's what will happen if it does fall.

Old Nan also talks about snows a hundred feet deep in her Long Night story. If we have 100 foot snows, then I'm wondering how deep the snow drifts against the Wall could reach? Maybe the Wall doesn't fall as such, it's just that instead of the top falling to the ground the ground rises to the top? Then when the snow melts in spring the Wall still remains, waiting for the next Long Night. I like this idea, but it makes the whole horn thing redundant and I don't think it will be somehow.

 

[Evolett]

Who crafted  the horn and why? If its purpose is to bring down the Wall, it must have been crafted after the Wall was built. It seems to have survived beyond the Wall. 

The Watch should have no interest in bringing down the Wall if they have to stay true to ensure it stands to defend the realm.  There are two possibilities I can think of regarding the creation of the horn:

- it was crafted by a party sympathetic to the Others in order to bring the Wall down when the time comes.

- seeing as the wildlings were relegated to the lands beyond the Wall, and have always faced the immediate threat of being overwhelmed by the Others, the horn may have been crafted by wildlings / CotF to give them the option of fleeing south should the Others return. 

The one and only person said to have blown the horn was Joranum, a king beyond the Wall. He also joined the Stark in Winterfell to bring Night's King down, which is kind of remarkable since the NW and wildlings have supposedly been enemies for thousands of years. What was Joranum's motivation? One idea I've toyed with is that the Night's Queen may have been his daughter (or wife), stolen by NK, and that Joranum wanted her back. Alternatively, seeing as NK was later discovered  to have been sacrificing to the Others, it may be the folk beyond the Wall were already being harassed by the Others, that the latter were on the move once again and Joramun's intention was to lead the freefolk to safety, hence his blowing the horn to be able to pass the Wall. 

One could argue that Night's King's actions must have already broken the Wall's wards, but as readers have noticed, the section of the NW oath recited by Sam to open the Black Gate is shorter than the current oath, lacking in key details:

Quote

“I am the sword in the darkness,” Samwell Tarly said. “I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.” 

If it's true that the Wall will stand strong so long as the men of the NW are true, then NK may not have broken any of the specified vows in the former oath, meaning the Wall still stood strong and Joramun had good reason to blow the horn in order to pass and assist Brandon the Breaker. 

The full Oath contains one noteworthy line pertaining directly to desertion:

"I shall live and die at my post" means a brother remains a watchman as long as he lives. A brother who deserts the Watch breaks this part of the oath and possibly weakens the wards on the Wall in the process. This is why it's a capital offence, regardless of the reason for deserting. Thus, Mance Rayder and Gared, as well as the brothers who ambushed Bran contributed to weakening wards in recent times. Lord Ryswell  returning the deserters who became the 79 sentinels that continue their watch even in death may have been a counter measure to ensure the Wall stayed strong. 79 - that's a lot of brothers. 

 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The men of the night's watch must be true. I think this is a reference to their oaths. As long as the Night's Watch keep true to their vow to protect the realm then the Others cannot pass. If they fail to do this, then the ward is broken and the Others can pass. I think the Watch has lost sight of its purpose and the ward was broken in Jon XIII, so all that remains to be overcome is the physical structure. It also ties in to Ned's saying, a wall is only as good as the men who guard it.

I always felt Mance accepted Jon rather too readily. Having been a brother before, he must have known of the gravity of "I shall live and die at my post."  He was a deserter himself, had been looking for the horn of winter to bring down the Wall. He then welcomes another deserter. Could he have been motivated to accept Jon because he knew it meant a weakening of the Wall's defences? Encouraging Jon to take Ygritte as his wife would represent another attempt at eroding the Wall. Jon did not desert when he joined the wildlings though, and was prevented from doing so by his brothers earlier. The question is if Jon's murder can be seen as a breaking of the oath. There's nothing in the oath specifying that brothers cannot take arms against each other and from what the history books tell us, this has indeed happened a number of times in the past. It is in fact necessary to keeping renegade NWatchmen in line at times. 

 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

But if its a horn then we're talking sound frequency, and there is a frequency you can hit that will shatter a glass into a million pieces, so I wonder if that's what will happen if it does fall.

That's a great insight. Perhaps the prologue foreshadows such a senario. The Wall is a giant crystal that might respond like Ser Waymar's sword :

Quote

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. 

And then:

Quote

When the blades touched, the steel shattered. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. 

 

[Ring3r]

On 2/15/2023 at 2:04 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Pretty straightforward: how do you think the Wall comes down? Full disclosure, I’m not convinced it will happen. But above all else, I don’t see how can it happen w/o killing everyone within a certain radius and also w/o its fall having far-reaching consequences. And I’m not talking about the magic or the Others coming south or whatever, but just that amount of ice/water + the physical force of it all. And it can’t just melt slowly or something b/c that would be a drag in terms of storytelling. I find it easier to depict a metaphorical fall, where the magic within it fails than a literal fall of a 700ft high 300mi long ice cube. 

Well, I'm just one guy, but my vote is towards "down."  The wall will fall down.  It will not fall up.