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Knowing It's Coming and Not Liking It

Curled Finger

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32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But the vinegar pissing is just his normal self 24/7, no? I doubt we’ll see his demise from his PoV, though I suppose Martin could change this pattern. 

Yeah, its pretty hard to relate one's own death. True, he's always pissing vinegar but I hope he's got something special for last words. 


34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t really care for Tyrion… never cared much but now he’s hands down my least favourite main PoV. I hope he comes back from the brink, but I’m not sure he will… Martin also called him a villain, so there’s that. I fear he may be a bad influence on Dany as well. 

I enjoyed him. The whole Shae betrayal colours his romanticism in Clash for me, but on a first read I was happy for the little guy. Someone's got to tell him where whores go so he can go there and get over it already. Since crossing the water he's been pretty pathetic. I don't personally think he's going to interact with Dany that much, maybe even at all but if he does I can't see him being a positive influence, that's for sure.

37 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Cersei’s definitely appalling, and so much more, none of it good. But I enjoy her chapters in a way I don’t Vic’s or the Damphair’s. Maybe b/c Vic is just stupid, whereas Cersei, despite a low cunning, is stupid and kind of crazy? 

I find they both blindly delight in their own self inflicted, self directed self destruction. I watch with glee and dread.


40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That would be awesome, but given the amount of ideas, theories and speculation that have been proposed since 2011, I find that possibility a very slim one. 

I hold out hope, but the math says it's not going to happen.

41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I like that, ‘the death of a theory’! I suppose many of us will be going through processing that grief. :D

A lot of possibilities are going to close off. There's a whole segment that will be disenfranchised when they are given indisputable proof that Tyrion isn't actually the time traveling womb hopping child of Dany. Maybe Benjen Stark and Daario will be seen in the same room at the same time closing a tonne of doors. Maybe a Faceless Man will say something like, 'there's only ever been like 5 or 6 of us at a time and that guy that ended up in Westeros was blown off course in the first place', the Maesters will be revealed to be incompetent and self serving and without the imagination to challenge the Targs let alone poison their dragons...  I suspect that TWOW will be bittersweet for many of us even if it exceeds our expectations.

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

  I love Vic for many reasons, mainly because he wants to outwit Euron, which is absurd, but I admire his wanting to. 

Vic really sums up Kissedbyfire's signature. I don't know what the people around him tell themselves (but I imagine they say it quietly)

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8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

For instance, I’m certain she knows Mel’s been banging Stannis, I’m certain Mel has her full support in everything she does. And I do think she might feel bad about it or sad or something, but if Mel tells her it’s necessary, that it is Red Rahloo’s wishes or command, she’ll go along w/ it. Just my 2p, I fully acknowledge I may be wrong and that my deep dislike for the character may be colouring my opinion. 

I'm honestly at a loss why Selyse allowing her husband to fuck Melisandre would be 'bad' on principle? Don't you approve of people deciding how their marriage is going to go? Also - Melisandre is the person Selyse worships. Not so much the phantom R'hllor. It's the same with all those 'Queen's Men' - they see and fear and worship the Red Woman because she is beauty and power incarnated. And she destroys people who try to mess with her. The religious fervor there is directed at Melisandre - her followers would quickly forget about R'hllor if Melisandre were to fail. In that sense, Selyse is not so much a religious nut but a woman using religious language to gain and retain the favor of her living goddess - Melisandre of Asshai. (Unlike the followers of Lady Stoneheart who have actual proof that the powers behind Thoros are real and do work. They would not turn back to the weakling gods of Westeros even if Thoros were to die.)

That said - while the shitshow went with Selyse knowing about this stuff (I think), in the books there is actually a sad little episode implying she doesn't know - remember that she tells people in Jon's presence that she repeatedly begged Stannis to renew their marriage vows the R'hllorian way because that would most definitely mean they would finally conceive a son? While she could also say that publicly while knowing her husband will never again touch her because Melisandre is oh so much sexier (and, one imagines, more capable in bed) ... it is actually not that likely that she would do this. It would publicly draw attention to something that must be a festering wound in her mind ... and thus she would not talk about the status of her marriage in public.

And in regards to her personality: If Shireen has a parent who cares about her it is Selyse, not her father. Stannis has yet to interact with his daughter in a chapter ... or talk about her in a way that indicates he has positive feelings for her. If Stannis is the guy doing it, then the shitshow likely did one thing right - that Selyse doesn't approve of it in the end, and tries to stop it.

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

If it gets really dark, then maybe it's Jon who sanctions the burning of Shireen, as the Others come swarming through the Wall, and Mel tells him its Shireen or the world.

I'd be surprised if the Shireen thing were to happen in TWoW. When should that be? Should Stannis eventually return to the Wall with his first act there being commanding some daughter-burning because that's how one celebrates a victory these days? Like Dany may not even decide to go to Westeros in TWoW, chances are actually pretty good that we will be 500+ pages into the novel before Stannis (if he is still alive) even learns about Jon's death. While this should certainly be a motivation for him to return to the Wall ... he would only do it if the Winterfell/North situation and the weather allows it.

If Stannis does it - and the only character that makes sense for this is Stannis since the whole thing seems to be the plot about a father sacrificing his daughter like Agamemnon, etc. - then something really important must be at stake. Something involving the Others and the fate of mankind. Stannis would not sacrifice the only heir he has left for a campaign for the Iron Throne.

Any other character possibly desiring Shireen's death - Val, the other wildlings, Bowen Marsh and his buddies - would just put her down. They would not burn her alive. And that is likely not what George has in mind. And in context of the current crisis Shireen will be a very important person, somebody 'the good guys at the Wall' would not want to lose. With Stannis allegedly dead and Jon Snow murdered Shireen will be the only element keeping Jon's and Stannis' guys united and operational. If Shireen were killed early on in TWoW then we would see a massive fracturing at the Wall and little to no chance for them actually working together again. Especially if the wildlings did it.

And considering the Iron Bank plot chances are pretty high that Selyse will actually leave the Wall for Braavos with Tycho Nestoris and Justin Massey to collect the monies the Iron Bank promised her husband, taking her daughter with her to actually have a pretender to the Iron Throne she could show bankers. If Stannis is presumed dead then Shireen might have to put her signature and seal beneath the final contract with the Iron Bank.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm honestly at a loss why Selyse allowing her husband to fuck Melisandre would be 'bad' on principle?

Are you talking about this:

And I do think she might feel bad about it or sad or something”

Because I was talking about Selyse feeling bad or sad about Shireen burning, not Mel shagging Stannis. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you talking about this:

And I do think she might feel bad about it or sad or something”

Because I was talking about Selyse feeling bad or sad about Shireen burning, not Mel shagging Stannis. 

Ah, okay, then I got confused there. Pretty sure she will be devastated by the notion to burn her only child. Unlike the shitshow, Selyse's only pregnancy led to Shireen. She is in favor of sacrificing Edric because his filthy mother fouled her and Stannis' wedding, leading to her present unfortune (in her mind). But she will never view her and Stannis' only child as equally at fault ... much less as equally expendable.

This is something Selyse is about as likely to consider seriously as Lysa would parting with little Robert. For Stannis it should be tough, too, considering that it is outright insanity for a king to kill his only heir. But he has no relationship to the girl that we know of, so it is most likely much easier for him to get rid of her.

But Selyse is the parent Shireen actually spends time with.

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I've got another worry, now that I remember.

Jeyne Poole is unmasked, and no one believes that she was coerced into pretending to be Arya.  So, Stannis burns her for treason.

I think Jeyne is safe for a while longer.  Chekhov's whip marks have to pay off.  All trails lead to Littlefinger so she has to get some ways along.  If GRRM wishes she could be an infodump on his activities.

Things I fear happening: 

Arya going bad and becoming a soulless killer.

Sansa becoming Littlefinger 2.0.

Dany not making it to or near Westeros.

Un-Jon becoming villainous.

Jon Arya ship.

Sailor's wife being Tysha (so cliche)

My biggest fear: Red Wedding 2.0.  More violence is the last thing Riverlands needs.

Edited by Nevets
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14 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Un-Jon becoming villainous.

Oh, I could see this, and why not?  Jon worked so hard with the NW and FF to get them both to understand the dangers and to work together.  What does he get for his pains?  A dim-bulb spoon counter puts a knife in his belly.  Seems like being murdered would be quite likely to create a villainous, vengeful undead ice wight.  He would not owe the NW or Westeros anything and I could see him being no more mister nice guy, very easily.  The old, be careful what you wish for trope, in spades. 

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I shall purchase my ticket to the toasty vacation spot as well, with something to contribute.

I fear for Missandei and the other children caught up in the civil war in Meereen, including the hostages whom the Shavepate might well murder without Dany there to prevent it. I'm holding out hope for Missandei at least, but unfortunately, the child hostages are likely doomed. :bawl:

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On 2/23/2023 at 9:23 PM, LongRider said:

I wouldn't wish being crushed by a horse on anyone, and while Harry is an entitled little prick, he is another one manipulated by Littlefinger. Here's what I don't want to see:

Clegane bowl, which I see as, well as Arya would put it "That's just stupid!"

Arya still in Braavos by the end of WOW-- come home girl!

More undead, no GRRM, what there is now is enough.

I don't want to see Jon dead or undead.  

Agree that burning Shireen would be terrible.   Perhaps if it actually occurs, the Freefolk will turn on Mel for such a horrid action.

Years ago, GRRM said there would be a few marriages in WOW, but right now, who that might be I couldn't guess.


Nice list! No stupid meme for Sandor. And get back, Arya! Get back! Get back to where you once belonged.

Also for me, don't want to see:

Sansa still in Alayne mode. Enough already. Be yourself, girl!

Dany being fooled by Tyrion. She's too damn smart for that!

Basically I'd like GRRM to allow these characters to express themselves and to put things they've learned to good use. It's time to lay some cards on the table.

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On 2/24/2023 at 9:59 AM, EggBlue said:

there are so many things I dread to read in tWoW and yet, I think are quite plausible...


4. Cersei surviving ... can't bare the woman ... hopefully the Valanquer will take her down in the winds

I like the way you put that. I dread Cersei surviving. If she died in Winds it would offer readers a bright spot in a dark book. And hopefully it's Jaime who kills her, and she never sees it coming until it happens.

A nice Cersei death would offset the torture of Tommen's kittens, so we'd have something to hold onto.

Also ditto for Littlefinger. I don't want to see him survive Winds, either. Hopefully Sweetrobin takes him down.

Edited by Le Cygne
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