Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned not telling his son "you can have sex with a girl without being forced to marry her" seems a glaring failure as a parent that caused his son everything.

Basic things like how Robb and Sansa aren't in an incestous relationship, Ned not randomly hating one of his children for something outside of his control, not being mistrustful of basic human emotions like amusement, not treating his children like pawns to the extent Tywin does, the way he speaks to them and treats them etc. all show Ned was a better parent. Also, where do you get the idea Ned explicitly told Robb that? Ned himself has a bastard and Theon is sleeping around, 

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

The show.

Same as with the Stark children turning shit around.

I'm not basing my opinion of the Stark children on the show but on the original title for the last book though. I haven't seen after season 3 of the show.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

The House is yet to be ruined by his children

Cersei walked through the street naked, Joffrey is dead, Cersei has done things like default on the Iron Bank and bring back the Faith Militant, people were mocking at Tywin's funeral, the reputation of the House is steadily going down the drain...

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

At this point, you're repeating a wish. Tywin's branch is still ruling and there's little that leads us to believe they are all going to die except that it'd be poetic justice. But let's recapitulate, Robb dead, Sansa trapped by a pedo, Arya assasin at the other side of the world, Rickon 6 yo, Jon dead, Bran tree beyond the wall.  Yeah...

Tywin's branch consists of Cersei, Tyrion and Jaime. Cersei is making idiot decision after idiot decision, it is a wonder she isn't dead already and there is a prophecy saying she will die, Tyrion is in a warzone and if he ends up with Daenerys he will be exposed to yet more war, to be honest Tyrion should be dead already, Jaime is walking into a hanging and if he somehow survives that he is still going to be in danger, there is also that thing about how he is supposed to die with Cersei, all three are going to face the Others if they aren't dead before then. If you include Tommen and Myrcella, as per the prophecy it doesn't look good for them, the despicable Sand Snakes are coming for Tommen and Myrcella was nearly killed already and is now basically a hostage in Dorne.

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't think the books are making any parallel at all between Ned and Tywin but fans are. 

I think we are supposed to compare what they've left behind in terms of how people think of them.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ned not telling his son "you can have sex with a girl without being forced to marry her" seems a glaring failure as a parent that caused his son everything.

It seems to me that you're deciding what's luck and what's bad parenting rahter arbitrarily.

 

No it doesn't.

 

All of that is true, it's not a competition tho, Robb could have tried and make an offer to the Tyrells, and so could have Stannis, they were up to their own asses and the Lannisters stole their thunder, shit happens.

The rest is not luck, it's flaw of characters.

 

Now, still they are alive in the show, i have little reason to doubt it'd be different in the books as well. 

 

Not to that neurotic point like in the show or what you allude, i don't really remember him making a mention about what the legacy of House Lannister w ould be in the books at all.

 

And if Jaime hadn't confessed the truth about Tysha, Tywin would not have been killed.

So many ifs.

 

 

1. The House is yet to be ruined by his children even tho they are making an spectacular effort to do so.
2. At this point, you're repeating a wish. Tywin's branch is still ruling and there's little that leads us to believe they are all going to die except that it'd be poetic justice. But let's recapitulate, Robb dead, Sansa trapped by a pedo, Arya assasin at the other side of the world, Rickon 6 yo, Jon dead, Bran tree beyond the wall.  Yeah...

 

The show.

Same as with the Stark children turning shit around.

 

Well, yes, you kinda are.

You can be a terrible parent and your still turn around to be decent people and rulers, kinda like Aegon IV and his son, you can be a good or decent parent and your children turning out to be shit, kinda like Aegon and Aenys.

I don't think the books are making any parallel at all between Ned and Tywin but fans are. 

Whatever Ned's sins, his children have turned out pretty good.  All are basically solid citizens; even Arya's not that bad.  They don't plot against each other, they don't even think about doing each other harm (not even Arya and Sansa fantasize about hurting the other), and they genuinely care about each other, and other people in general.  I don't see infighting as likely being a serious problem.  None of this is true with the Lannisters.  They are constantly plotting against each other, even planning harm, and infighting has been a problem.

It is true that the Starks are in a bad place.  Bran, Sansa, and Arya all have guardians and mentors that are untrustworthy or even malign.  But they are all learning skills that will prove useful.  Bran is learning magic.  Sansa is learning politics, rulership, and organizing and planning, not to mention spotting sneaks.  Arya is learning how to find out stuff, divine the truth, and how to be sneaky.  (What, you though she was learning to be an assassin?  Silly you).  And when they do show up in the North, there will be a reservoir of good will and support to draw on.

The Lannisters aren't going away, but they do seem to be losing their luster.  Enemies and potential enemies are starting to gather, and the Lannisters have few true friends to call on, unlike the Starks.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Nevets

[Nevets]

Jaime is on a redemption arc; he's a noticeably better person than he was before.  Whether he will complete it is another matter.

The Faceless Men have no intention of making Arya an assassin and never did.  They want her as an agent in Westeros to help them as needed.

Until the Others are dealt with, Jon will not leave the Nights Watch nor will he become King in the North.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

@freninI don’t think good necessarily triumphs.  I do think that evil is frequently self-defeating, and Tywin will ultimately only be known as the Hand Who Died on the Toilet.

To be fair he had decades of excellent work as a hand keeping aerys from fucking westeros right up !

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Didn't he have designs for some ornithopter stuff as well?

On second check, yes he does, thank you for reminding me about that very inflammable design.

[The Wolves]

16 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

How so? Robert for all his faults brought decades of peace and prosperity, jon arryn couldnt have predicted the twincest or roberts seemingly mad spending(and he even brought in lf who for all his faults was able to keep finding rhe cash they needed from their increasingly smaller income streams)

 

Besides who else was there young enough to produce heirs and thus stabilise a new line...jamie? Ned already rejected the job, stannis ahead of robert? 

No one should have been proclaimed king except Aegon. 
 

The rebellion was never about the throne. There was NOTHING in Robert’s background that screamed “I would make a great or even good king” Robert was an idiot who slept with multiple women, fought and liked to drink he had no business running a country. 
 

Arryn was an idiot and so was everyone else on the Trident for naming him king. 
 

Also Robert aligned with the Lannisters, Jaime stabbed the man he was sworn to protect in the back and Tywin feigned loyalty to gain entry into a city that he raped, murdered and terrorized. What would anyone expect but disloyalty, and chaos with the Lannisters? Robert was a stupid and neglectful king who never should have been king in the first place. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

No one should have been proclaimed king except Jon Stannis Stannis STANNIS! 
 

The Invasion is all about the throne. There is NOTHING in Daenerys' background that screamed “I would make a great or even good queen” Daenerys is an idiot who slept with multiple men, fought and liked to burn people she had no business running a country. 

Illyrio was an idiot and so was everyone else in Essos for naming her queen.

 

Also Daenerys aligned with the Dothraki, Drogo melted the brains of the man he was sworn to make king and gained entry into a city that he raped, murdered, terrorized and enslaved. What would anyone expect but disloyalty, and chaos with the Dothraki? Daenerys was a stupid and neglectful queen who never should have been king in the first place. 

 

How funny that you can change just a few words and it suddenly becomes true.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[The Sleeper]

Tywin and Cersei essentially are doing the same shit. They antagonize and try to undermine everyone else and think they are being subtle about it. The outcome would have been the same had Twin survived in the long run. The reason Tywin got away with it for as long as he did was because of hype and various other reasons that ultimately come down to him being a man.

Tywin is the only character that Martin broke the fourth wall for to tell that he is full of shit and rotten to the core.

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by The Sleeper

[The Sleeper]

There is no such thing as a good king.

For one, no single person can govern, they are at the head of a hierarchy and often stand as no more than a figurehead. in fact in many cases that would be for the best. The less they do the less mess they will make. Tommen is an excellent prospect in that regard.

For another that whole system is founded on coercion and exploitation top to bottom, as well as the belief that some people are better than others.

[SaffronLady]

12 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

For another that whole system is founded on coercion and exploitation top to bottom, as well as the belief that some people are better than others.

So basically a society with a king is a human society. Ok.

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here’s another one: book fans overemphasize Tyrion’s evil. He’s definitely a dark character, and I realize that it’s based in opposition to his TV portrayal as St. Tyrion, but people blame him for a lot of things that were genuinely out of his hands. By adding the valonqar prophecy, GRRM essentially absolved Tyrion of any wrongdoing regarding Cersei—no matter how kind he was to her, she would have still wanted him dead. The same goes for Pycelle, Boros Blount, etc. They would have testified against Tyrion no matter how well he treated them in the past, because they would never cross Tywin and Cersei. 

And no, he isn’t actually planning on assaulting Cersei. People say things in anger that they don’t act on. Same with his threats against Tommen, which he even admitted were empty later on.

St. Tyrion could have worked - as an Albert Speer figure - who first persuaded himself, and then other, that he’s a good person at heart, while blaming others for his own crimes.

[The Sleeper]

15 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

So basically a society with a king is a human society. Ok.

It is too generalized, fair enough.

The point is though that some things are inherent in the hierarchy and don't depend on the character of the person occupying the position or their intentions. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by The Sleeper

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The rebellion was never about the throne

What do you mean, not about the Throne? It was about removing the Throne's current occupant. No Throne = No Rebellion.

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Arryn was an idiot and so was everyone else on the Trident for naming him king. 

Who would you name then? Naming any Targaryens is silly when you are fighting a war to depose one because as soon as they are king/come of age they might take offence and you end up like Roger Mortimer with Edward III. The King also needs to follow the Faith, and cannot be from the Reach, Dorne or Narrow Sea Houses. Ideally they should not be a child. Some previous link to royalty may be desirable. And it is good if the king is someone well-liked and personable.

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Basic things like how Robb and Sansa aren't in an incestous relationship, 

A vast number of fanfic writers think Sansa and Jon have incestuous romantic feelings for each other.

[astarkchoice]

8 hours ago, The Wolves said:

No one should have been proclaimed king except Aegon. 
 

The rebellion was never about the throne. There was NOTHING in Robert’s background that screamed “I would make a great or even good king” Robert was an idiot who slept with multiple women, fought and liked to drink he had no business running a country. 
 

Arryn was an idiot and so was everyone else on the Trident for naming him king. 
 

Also Robert aligned with the Lannisters, Jaime stabbed the man he was sworn to protect in the back and Tywin feigned loyalty to gain entry into a city that he raped, murdered and terrorized. What would anyone expect but disloyalty, and chaos with the Lannisters? Robert was a stupid and neglectful king who never should have been king in the first place. 

Yes because theres never been an unsuitable targ ruler? Its a feudal monarchy not a democracy  there were no suitable candidates from the tiny pool  such a limited backward  system produces.

Yes he aligned with the lannisters man  as they had already aligned with him AND far more importanly they are far far too powerful to be left and possibly align with the reach and dorne! Marrying cersi tied the rebel block into one stable dynasty....the twincest could not have been predicted

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes because theres never been an unsuitable targ ruler? Its a feudal monarchy not a democracy  there were no suitable candidates from the tiny pool  such a limited backward  system produces.

Yeah, Robert was one of the better picks from a bad/mediocre bunch. Got to remember we can't have Ned on the Throne for religious reasons, can't have a king from any of the regions that were pro-Targ, Jon Arryn is arguably too old and has no children at that point, maybe could have picked Hoster but then the Lord of the Riverlands would be a boy/someone who is determined not to marry and Robert arguably has better pedigree due to Storm King/Targ links. Robert also got along with everyone while Hoster (at least to me) seemed a bit grouchy.

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes he aligned with the lannisters man  as they had already aligned with him AND far more importanly they are far far too powerful to be left and possibly align with the reach and dorne!

Personally I would have married into the Reach (think Mace Tyrell has a sister or cousin 'Janna Tyrell') due to Tywin's known inclination to treachery but at the same time stuff like the incest could not have been predicted, plus Robert may have thought Tywin wouldn't try that much as it was the Crown protecting the Lannisters from people like in Dorne who want to see them pay for their crimes.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[astarkchoice]

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah, Robert was one of the better picks from a bad/mediocre bunch. Got to remember we can't have Ned on the Throne for religious reasons, can't have a king from any of the regions that were pro-Targ, Jon Arryn is arguably too old and has no children at that point, maybe could have picked Hoster but then the Lord of the Riverlands would be a boy/someone who is determined not to marry and Robert arguably has better pedigree due to Storm King/Targ links. Robert also got along with everyone while Hoster (at least to me) seemed a bit grouchy.

Personally I would have married into the Reach (think Mace Tyrell has a sister or cousin 'Janna Tyrell') due to Tywin's known inclination to treachery but at the same time stuff like the incest could not have been predicted, plus Robert may have thought Tywin wouldn't try that much as it was the Crown protecting the Lannisters from people like in Dorne who want to see them pay for their crimes.

Yeah ned rejected the job and hoster and jon arry  where too old to realisticly  father kids (yeah jon did beat the odds with lil robert)  and thus stabilize the regieme!

 

Mace has 2 sisters but dont know when they married , but probably  married young by the  political grasping queen to thorns to stablize the tyrell hold of the reach (one married a redwyne and the other to a fossaway..so impeccable choices within the reach) so both probably out.

Overall id say given the reachs  and esp tyrell loyalist targ sympathies they needed a counter weight to stabilize the realm, the lannisters where rich and powerful and tywin feared (an additional bonus in case bannermen thought they could rebel and roberts standard forgiving nature took over)plus cersei young and beautiful (maybe jon thought a pretty enough face would keep him to one woman?)

Iv always thought stannis marriage to the florents was  a veiled  threat agaisnt the tyrells which showed how much the rebels thought they could trust them, i mean the tyrell positon existef due to targs and there were still 2 out there so that wss probably very awkward and unsettling forr the new crown at 1st!

Add in dorne was still livid and raising its spears and the ironborn were off to have kingsmoot right after the rebellion! Dragonstone still had a significant fleet and strong fort and of course those meddling essosi could tip the balance at any time!!!!!

Of course in hindsight we know right after  the rebellion  the targ fleet is smashed in a storm, jon arryn risks his life to travel to sunspear to calm the dornish down , the ironborns new leader does shit  right away (as hes got a bigger supider plan ) and of course  shortly after the rebllion willas is injured  in one of the new regimes 1st tourneys by oberyn ..... which the 2 men hold no grudges about but the old reach vs dorne enmity bubbles up making alliances less likely.......somewhere in that timeline too oberyn annoys one of the most critical dorish pass families by killing one of theirs in a duel thus  the dornish passes arent secure for dorne to go to war with!!....the viper really fucks up dornes pre roberts  rebellion plans for vengance on reflection!!!!!!!

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

It is too generalized, fair enough.

The point is though that some things are inherent in the hierarchy and don't depend on the character of the person occupying the position or their intentions. 

And your edit still doesn't solve the problem of differenciating monarchies and other human societies. In fact, you stressed the similarities: that people in power tend to rot away no matter they got up there by blood relations or ... any method, really.

[SeanF]

The main problem with Robert as King, for me, was his rejoicing over the deaths of a young woman and her two infants, and then rewarding the perpetrator of the deed.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

rejoicing over the deaths of a young woman and her two infants

He didn't really 'rejoice' though, there is no indication he was happy about it. I think if he had been happy about it Ned would have a worse opinion of him, Ned says he 'called it war' which to be suggestions a begrudging acceptance rather than happiness. Yes Robert should have punished Tywin, and maybe he thought the deaths were 'for the best' in terms of future stability of the realm, but I doubt he was particularly happy about it, certainly no displays of glee as 'rejoice' would imply. Robert isn't a psycho, when Joffrey acts like one he doesn't like it at all.