Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Robert decided Rhaegar stealing his fiancee was enough of a crime to condemn all the Targs to death, so he saw the deaths of Rhaegar's kids as 'well it has to be this way'. End of story, really. Sometimes it is enough to know a character's actions have a reason, rather than asking them to be reasonable.

Rhaegar stole his prized "possession."

Edited July 5, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

34 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Well, Robert seems to be happy with that outcome:

He can certainly be pleased that at least his reign is more secure but I don't think that is the same as being happy over dead children. Daenerys expresses satisfaction that the War of the Five Kings started because the outcome is she has an easier time invading, doesn't mean she's happy about all the people who died to make it happen or are dying/suffering because of it.

[astarkchoice]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Rhaegar stole his prized "possession."

The funny part is if that hadnt happened (ice demons aside)

Robert and lyanna would have been terrible together, his cheating and her willfullness (probably taken a lover herself) 

The 1st time they clash too hard and drunken robert puts his hands on her ned will get to watch big brother brandon and his best pal fight to the death!!

[The Wolves]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What do you mean, not about the Throne? It was about removing the Throne's current occupant. No Throne = No Rebellion.

Who would you name then? Naming any Targaryens is silly when you are fighting a war to depose one because as soon as they are king/come of age they might take offence and you end up like Roger Mortimer with Edward III. The King also needs to follow the Faith, and cannot be from the Reach, Dorne or Narrow Sea Houses. Ideally they should not be a child. Some previous link to royalty may be desirable. And it is good if the king is someone well-liked and personable.

The rebellion was about defending themselves, remember Robert was proclaimed King after killing Rhaegar on the Trident. 
 

And I will say this forever but “Aegon should have been named king” He was the best option than anyone fighting in that rebellion. 
 

The rebels bowing to another Targaryen king is no different than a Reed having to bow to a Stark after they defeated them in battle. Or any other great lord or family that has stripped titles, raped, murdered, wronged, etc…  another house and that house has had to bow, follow and serve. 
 

A baby like Aegon would have been perfect. He wouldn’t have remembered the rebellion to have any hostile feelings and could have been shaped. Also Dorne would have been appeased with Elia and her children alive and having the throne. 

[The Wolves]

7 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes because theres never been an unsuitable targ ruler? Its a feudal monarchy not a democracy  there were no suitable candidates from the tiny pool  such a limited backward  system produces.

Yes he aligned with the lannisters man  as they had already aligned with him AND far more importanly they are far far too powerful to be left and possibly align with the reach and dorne! Marrying cersi tied the rebel block into one stable dynasty....the twincest could not have been predicted

No one was aligning with the Lannisters. They have no allies. What would the Lannisters have offered the Reach to align themselves with them? Gold? Power? Status? The Reach had all that and more. The Reach needed the crown and the Lannisters can’t give them that. 
 

Also Dorne is not ever aligning with the Lannisters. They raped and murdered Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. 
 

The Lannisters don’t have any allies. Any relationships they have with other houses is based on coercion, fear, and hatred. 
 

The child that is not corrupted from war and any negative feelings should have been king. With Dorne and others to guide him, Aegon could have been a good king(the sad thing is that we could never know). 

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

The rebellion was about defending themselves, remember Robert was proclaimed King after killing Rhaegar on the Trident. 
 

And I will say this forever but “Aegon should have been named king” He was the best option than anyone fighting in that rebellion. 
 

The rebels bowing to another Targaryen king is no different than a Reed having to bow to a Stark after they defeated them in battle. Or any other great lord or family that has stripped titles, raped, murdered, wronged, etc…  another house and that house has had to bow, follow and serve. 
 

A baby like Aegon would have been perfect. He wouldn’t have remembered the rebellion to have any hostile feelings and could have been shaped. Also Dorne would have been appeased with Elia and her children alive and having the throne. 

It started as self-defence.  At some point, it switched to wiping out the royal family, and installing a new one.

[astarkchoice]

38 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

No one was aligning with the Lannisters. They have no allies. What would the Lannisters have offered the Reach to align themselves with them? Gold? Power? Status? The Reach had all that and more. The Reach needed the crown and the Lannisters can’t give them that. 
 

Also Dorne is not ever aligning with the Lannisters. They raped and murdered Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. 
 

The Lannisters don’t have any allies. Any relationships they have with other houses is based on coercion, fear, and hatred. 
 

The child that is not corrupted from war and any negative feelings should have been king. With Dorne and others to guide him, Aegon could have been a good king(the sad thing is that we could never know). 

Yeah dorne and the reach combined cannot put someone on the throne..but add in the westerlands manpower and wealth  and you have a block that can match the rebels and reclaim the throne...THAT is the danger! Marrying cersei killed that possibility and secured roberts reign (even though he was still wary of the reach and viserys)

Or he could have  been  another inbred monster! 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

A baby like Aegon would have been perfect

Not from their perspective because he could be susceptible to the Madness.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

He can certainly be pleased that at least his reign is more secure but I don't think that is the same as being happy over dead children. Daenerys expresses satisfaction that the War of the Five Kings started because the outcome is she has an easier time invading, doesn't mean she's happy about all the people who died to make it happen or are dying/suffering because of it.

If one of Daenerys’ allies presented her with  the battered corpses of Tommen and Myrcella or Shireen, and she responded similarly to Robert, she’d be harshly, and rightly, criticised by the fandom.

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If one of Daenerys’ allies presented her with  the battered corpses of Tommen and Myrcella or Shireen, and she responded similarly to Robert, she’d be harshly, and rightly, criticised by the fandom.

Obviously. I feel like you've missed the point of my post a bit. Robert being happy with his reign being more secure is not the same as him being happy over murdered children, just as Daenerys being happy with the disunity caused by the War of the Five Kings is not the same as her being happy that Ned, Robert's bastards, etc. were killed.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Obviously. I feel like you've missed the point of my post a bit. Robert being happy with his reign being more secure is not the same as him being happy over murdered children, just as Daenerys being happy with the disunity caused by the War of the Five Kings is not the same as her being happy that Ned, Robert's bastards, etc. were killed.

 

He explicitly states his goal was wiping out the Targaryens.

Dany's hatred tends to focus on Robert, Tywin and Ned, who actively participated in the Rebellion, not their children.

[Groo]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:55 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Nothing about Dorne makes sense. It’s basically just a fantasy land of hot babes. 

You say that like it's a bad thing. 

Actually, I find Dorne and its storylines to be the least interesting parts of the books and that includes the Sand Snakes. I think part of the problem is that the other Dornish houses play almost no role in the story. We've got Umbers, Freys, Blackwoods and Brackens, Florents, Boltons, and on and on. Yet in Dorne the other lords are barely mentioned. All the power plays so far involve either the Sand Snakes or some young clueless noble kids. None of them have lands, titles, armies, or experience. Sure, Dorne is more tolerant of bastards but that doesn't make the Sand Snakes some kind of royal court that controls Dorne.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

He explicitly states his goal was wiping out the Targaryens.

Yes and no. The war began because Jon Arryn wouldn't hand over Ned's and Robert's heads.

It's clear Robert hated the "dragonspawn," but it's less clear if he'd have killed children himself. I actually really like this ambiguity from a story telling perspective. It doesn't seem like Robert's normal nature to take vengeance on children, he notoriously forgave lords who warred against him, but when it came to the Targaryens, particularly Rhaegar, he saw red. 

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

I feel like Robert mostly looks the other way here, calls it war not murder, even if he should know it was wrong, and probably does deep down. I doubt he smiled.

"Prince Rhaegar had two children," Ser Barristan told him. "Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King's Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king." And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin's gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar's children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. "I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I'll have no part of this."

For years Robert listened to Jon Arryn and sent no Usurper's Knives after Viserys and Dany, and in the end he admits to it being wrong to send the wine merchant after Dany.

"The girl. Daenerys. Only a child, you were right … that's why, the girl … the gods sent the boar … sent to punish me …" The king coughed, bringing up blood. "Wrong, it was wrong, I … only a girl … Varys, Littlefinger, even my brother … worthless … no one to tell me no but you, Ned … only you …"

Edited July 5, 2023 by Mourning Star

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not from their perspective because he could be susceptible to the Madness.

That would be a BS excuse. Robert was the only one who hated the Targs like that. Plus Aegon would have been part Martell not all Targaryen. 
 

I still don’t understand the logic or reasoning behind installing Robert as King. The short sightedness is the reason TWOT5KS happened. 

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

I still don’t understand the logic or reasoning behind installing Robert as King.

He was well liked by lots of people, an effective figurehead, not a follower of a minority religion, known to be fertile, not a child but relatively young, blood link to the previous dynasty, charismatic...

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

That would be a BS excuse. Robert was the only one who hated the Targs like that. Plus Aegon would have been part Martell not all Targaryen. 
 

I still don’t understand the logic or reasoning behind installing Robert as King. The short sightedness is the reason TWOT5KS happened. 

If you put Aegon in, you're going to need a regent, and I seriously doubt Elia was up to it.  So you've got political infighting on that issue, with no idea what's at the end. 

And things went fine for 15 years, and without the incest, might have gone on longer.  That plus Littlefinger and Varys is what caused the War of the 5 Kings.

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The short sightedness is the reason TWOT5KS happened. 

Who could have guessed a medieval empire the size of South America needed flying nukes to hold together. I wonder who, or which select people, caused the death of all the dragons ...

[Alester Florent]

8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

He explicitly states his goal was wiping out the Targaryens.

Dany's hatred tends to focus on Robert, Tywin and Ned, who actively participated in the Rebellion, not their children.

Bob says that years later, though, when he's trying to retrospectively justify the murder of Elia's kids and his current worries about Dany and Viserys. Ned disagrees about what they had been fighting for. I think we are meant to believe that Ned's recollection of their original cause is accurate and that Robert has become embittered with time, especially after Lyanna's death.

[Craving Peaches]

There is no grand anti-Targaryen conspiracy. The dragons died because the Targaryens spent ages killing each other and magic faded. The Targaryens suffered illnesses and stillbirths due to inbreeding. The Targaryens were overthrown because Aerys was a psycho.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

There is no grand anti-Targaryen conspiracy. The dragons died because the Targaryens spent ages killing each other and magic faded. The Targaryens suffered illnesses and stillbirths due to inbreeding. The Targaryens were overthrown because Aerys was a psycho.

An admirably materialistic take on a world of magic.