How Come Robert Didn't cut Himself on the Iron Throne?

[Alester Florent]

Most cuts from the throne that we see seem to result largely from losing one's temper while sitting it.

Human skin is also surprisingly good at resisting blades pressed against it so long as there's no lateral movement. If you sit still and don't fidget or wave your arms about or grab hold of sharp bits, you can probably avoid getting cut, though it still won't be comfortable.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Most cuts from the throne that we see seem to result largely from losing one's temper while sitting it.

Human skin is also surprisingly good at resisting blades pressed against it so long as there's no lateral movement. If you sit still and don't fidget or wave your arms about or grab hold of sharp bits, you can probably avoid getting cut, though it still won't be comfortable.

Robert really isn’t the person to keep a temper though he would also move as a result of  all sorts of things from losing temper to bursting into a laughing fit.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[frenin]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Were there any audiences before the one we witness with Ned?

Yes. It's a weekly-monthly thing.

 

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The Small council and a Hand would attend these along with the King on the IT, right?

Why? We see lots of rulers having audience during Asoiaf and F&B.

Some, especially if they are minors do, most don't.

On top of my head, Jaeharys, Viserys, and Cersei gave held audience without the rest of the small council.

 

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet, nothing in Ned's story suggests they did this between arriving at KL and the council where Ned has to make decisions with regards to the Mountain attacking the RL. And even when notified, Robert isn't in a hurry to return

You're putting the cart before the horse imo. There's nothing to suggest because it's not a matter of Ned's concern, till Robert is gone that is.

 

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Robert would have sat on the IT once in a while, but all points to him finding excuses and excursions to not being at the Red Keep to do this regularly.

I think that his comment about doing it often and hating every second of it, while completely omitting the Small Council meetings, and whereas we're told Robert ditched the Small Council meetings, we're never told the same about the audiences.

Now, Robert obviously wasn't present every single time but enough to be his task not his Hands'.

 

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We witness him sit as a judge once, at Darry's interrogating a 9 year old and trying to settle it asap and have fun again, and judging Lady must be killed to settle Cersei's nagging.

And that matches his point of hating every second of doing it and being forced to sit there till "his ass is raw and his mind is numb".

[The Sleeper]

His skin was too thick

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, frenin said:

Yes. It's a weekly-monthly thing.

It's a regular thing, yes, but you have no quote that Robert did them regularly. In fact, we know that for 298 AC at least, Robert did not preside them from the IT for months, since he was on a procession to Winterfell and back overland, which basically amounted to at least half a year. We have no evidence that Robert presided over them in the few months between arriving back at KL and him dying on his hunt (which took several weeks). We only have the Darry scene and his attestation that he has presided over some and that he hates them.

9 hours ago, frenin said:

We see lots of rulers having audience during Asoiaf and F&B.

Some, especially if they are minors do, most don't.

On top of my head, Jaeharys, Viserys, and Cersei gave held audience without the rest of the small council.

You misinterpreted my mention of "attend". You seem to think I implied they'd be seated up front as with a minor. I used "attend" as in "be present", like Sansa was present during Ned's audience. Robert's audience at Darry's is attended by 3 members of his small council for example: Ned, Renly and Selmy.

Cersei does not sit on the Iron Throne, for she is neither queen regnant or hand of King Tommen. She is a member of Tommen's "small council" as his regent. One is attended by Rosby (also a member of the small council) with the emissary of the Iron Bank, and another by Pycelle (a reinstated member of the "small council") and Qyburn.

9 hours ago, frenin said:

You're putting the cart before the horse imo. There's nothing to suggest because it's not a matter of Ned's concern, till Robert is gone that is.

The Hand is not some symbolical status. The same scene where Robert complains about listening to people complaints all day includes his joke about the King and the Hand.

Audiences are a matter of concern for a King's Hand and small council. They have to execute a king's orders or inform him on the matter if their knowledge is relevant. Tyrion is Joff's temp Hand, and we have ample paragraphs of him either witnessing Joff's decisions during such audiences, or being told about it by Littlefinger, etc. And this is not because Joff is a minor. Tyrion explicitly allows Joff to handle the audiences for justice, so he would be distracted.

As Hand, Ned would either learn or witness of a decision Robert made in such an audience. And he recollects nothing like that.

13 hours ago, frenin said:

I think that his comment about doing it often and hating every second of it

His comment does not mention he "does it often".

This is the full quote

Quote

Robert scarcely seemed to hear him. "Those years we spent in the Eyrie … gods, those were good years. I want you at my side again, Ned. I want you down in King's Landing, not up here at the end of the world where you are no damned use to anybody." Robert looked off into the darkness, for a moment as melancholy as a Stark. "I swear to you, sitting a throne is a thousand times harder than winning one. Laws are a tedious business and counting coppers is worse. And the people … there is no end of them. I sit on that damnable iron chair and listen to them complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw. They all want something, money or land or justice. The lies they tell … and my lords and ladies are no better. I am surrounded by flatterers and fools. It can drive a man to madness, Ned. Half of them don't dare tell me the truth, and the other half can't find it. There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly, but …" (aGoT, Eddard 1)

If Robert sat through such an audience once in the period between Jon Arryn's death, waiting for Cersei and his children to return from their tour to the Westerlands and Casterly Rock, before setting out for Winterfell, that can already account for the above quote. It is not me putting the cart before the horse, but you making assumptions and believing Robert made statements, he did not make. It is just your interpretation that the above quote implies it's something he did often and regularly.

But when you take into the wider context of what Robert has been saying down in the crypts (mentioning his travels), how Jon Arryn handled the most stuff, how Robert wanted it so with Jon and then again with Ned, and his choosing to continue to hunt, despite learning that Ned sent men to arrest the Mountain after raids in the Riverlands, we have ample circumstantial evidence that Robert as a character would paint the audiances as tedious without doing them regularly himself.

Notice how he also mentions "counting coppers" in the same paragraph. And that is tied to how he rarely presides the small council meetings.

13 hours ago, frenin said:

And that matches his point of hating every second of doing it and being forced to sit there till "his ass is raw and his mind is numb".

His ass would be raw and his mind numb after a few hours of it. And supports my point that Robert would do stuff to avoid it. Do you think it was just chance that Robert chose to go hunting around a time where an audience was up? Just chance that Pycelle and Littlefinger knew how to guide the Hand through an audience and deal with petitioners?

[Alester Florent]

Thinking about it, how many times do we know of that a king has actually cut himself on the Throne?

Viserys I cut his hand badly after ordering the Velaryon tongues removed.
Aerys II, according to Jaime, cut himself repeatedly.
Joffrey cuts himself once.

And maybe:
According to Aegon II's propagandists, Rhaenyra cut herself the first time she sat it.
Maegor died on the Throne under mysterious circumstances.

 

That's it. So while the Throne has a reputation for being dangerous, the number of confirmed incidents of Throne-inflicted injuries may be in single figures across 300 years and have been suffered by at most five people out of the twenty-odd monarchs known to have sat it, not even counting their Hands, regents, etc.

So the danger the Throne presents may be rather overstated to the point where it's remarkable when it happens but even large and/or useless kings (Aegon IV!) can easily avoid injury. 

On the other hand, it is possible of course that in fact kings cut themselves on the Throne all the time and the historic incidents we know of are only the most egregious. But with that in mind, we don't actually know that Robert didn't at some point in his reign. It just means that none of the characters in ASoIaF have found it significant enough to comment on.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Mourning Star]

26 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Thinking about it, how many times do we know of that a king has actually cut himself on the Throne?

Viserys I cut his hand badly after ordering the Velaryon tongues removed.
Aerys II, according to Jaime, cut himself repeatedly.
Joffrey cuts himself once.

And maybe:
According to Aegon II's propagandists, Rhaenyra cut herself the first time she sat it.
Maegor died on the Throne under mysterious circumstances.

That's it. So while the Throne has a reputation for being dangerous, the number of confirmed incidents of Throne-inflicted injuries may be in single figures across 300 years and have been suffered by at most five people out of the twenty-odd monarchs known to have sat it, not even counting their Hands, regents, etc.

So the danger the Throne presents may be rather overstated to the point where it's remarkable when it happens but even large and/or useless kings (Aegon IV!) can easily avoid injury. 

Out of what 19? That's like a 1/4 of them!

26 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

On the other hand, it is possible of course that in fact kings cut themselves on the Throne all the time and the historic incidents we know of are only the most egregious. But with that in mind, we don't actually know that Robert didn't at some point in his reign. It just means that none of the characters in ASoIaF have found it significant enough to comment on.

We only know what we've been told, in my opinion that cuts both ways.

[Springwatch]

We can't impose our values on a spooky iron chair made out of swords and forged in dragonfire. Maybe it nibbles at people it really likes, tasting their blood like Maggy the Frog. Or maybe like Lady Forlorn (multiplied a lot).

Cersei's nightmare about the IT could show she is extremely tasty indeed and should avoid sitting on the throne at all costs (I think she never has at this stage.)

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

We can't impose our values on a spooky iron chair made out of swords and forged in dragonfire.

To a certain extent I agree, but there is a definite implication that 'unworthy' rulers are harmed by the Throne. Maegor was supposedly killed by it, Rhaenyra was cut by it a few times after she started to make bad decisions and alienated supporters, Aerys II frequently cut himself on it and was covered with scabs as a result, and of course we see Joffrey cut himself on it.

[Springwatch]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

To a certain extent I agree, but there is a definite implication that 'unworthy' rulers are harmed by the Throne. Maegor was supposedly killed by it, Rhaenyra was cut by it a few times after she started to make bad decisions and alienated supporters, Aerys II frequently cut himself on it and was covered with scabs as a result, and of course we see Joffrey cut himself on it.

Sounds reasonable, but I have to question what behaviour is considered 'worthy' by an artefact created from the bloodied weapons of war and dragonfire.

I don't have any alternative evidence, just a hunch it could be an omen of war or something.

[Evolett]

Ned gives us a description of the Iron Throne while he sits on it. Note the positioning of his fingers. It's remarkable he wasn't cut:

Quote

Ned could feel cold steel against his fingers as he leaned forward. Between each finger was a blade, the points of twisted swords fanning out like talons from arms of the throne. Even after three centuries, some were still sharp enough to cut. The Iron Throne was full of traps for the unwary. The songs said it had taken a thousand blades to make it, heated white-hot in the furnace breath of Balerion the Black Dread. The hammering had taken fifty-nine days. The end of it was this hunched black beast made of razor edges and barbs and ribbons of sharp metal; a chair that could kill a man, and had, if the stories could be believed.

What Eddard Stark was doing sitting there he would never comprehend, yet there he sat, and these people looked to him for justice.

Between each finger was a blade - almost an invitation to being cut. Ned isn't the king but is seated on the throne to deliver justice. It's interesting Viserys loses two fingers after being cut by the throne. 

According to the songs, the throne was heated in the fires of Balerion, rather like Valyrian steel swords and its blades still hold an edge after hundreds of years, again like Valyrian steel. The throne is a symbolic "black beast." Perhaps it needs a drop of blood every now and then. What is said of Maegor's death on the throne is reminiscent of a sacrifice. From the Wiki:

Quote

He was found dead the next morning by Queen Elinor, seated on the Iron Throne with his robes covered in blood and his wrists slashed. A spike from one of the swords on the throne behind him was impaled through the back of his neck. 

Maybe the throne will only draw blood from personalities with particular characteristics.

20 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Viserys I cut his hand badly after ordering the Velaryon tongues removed.
Aerys II, according to Jaime, cut himself repeatedly.
Joffrey cuts himself once.

And maybe:
According to Aegon II's propagandists, Rhaenyra cut herself the first time she sat it.
Maegor died on the Throne under mysterious circumstances

So perhaps rather than thinking in terms of "bad regents," maybe there are commonalities between these few examples that exclude regents like Robert. Aerys, Maegor and Joffery can be descirbed as "beasts" for instance. Since we see Ned with his fingers between sharp blades go unharmed, perhaps a criterium for escaping its fangs is justice. Perhaps those cut by it were simply not entitled to claim and sit on it. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

That saying about the blades cutting the unqualified is just myth.  More like it cuts the clumsy.  Robert was big like Belwas.  So even if he got cut here and there it wouldn't draw much notice.  He ain't the kind of man to complain about a little cut. 

[Springwatch]

Reminds me of the various takes of Baelor in the snakepit:

Sansa: The vipers refused to strike him because he was so pure and holy.

Oberyn: If you were a viper, my lady, would you want to bite a bloodless stick like Baelor the Blessed? I'd sooner save my fangs for someone juicier....

Ellaria: He was bitten half a hundred times and should have died from it.

Same question (the vipers/throne refused to bite), same answers as we gave above, don't you think?

 

[Lord Varys]

What kind of question is that? Do we also want to know why Robert never made a cruise to Qarth?

Also ... who says he never cut himself up there? In AGoT he never sits there, and whatever he did in the last 15 years the series effectively glosses over. But of course he would have sat up there a lot, for instance when rewarding friends and punishing enemies after both wars he fought, when granting lordships to his brothers and others, when declaring his firstborn son, Joffrey Baratheon, his Heir Apparent, etc.

People actually do have to care about the cutting thing and use it as a propaganda tool against a monarch. Aerys II cut himself a lot ... but that is just one element in the bundle of really good arguments why he was unhinged and not exactly a great king.

With Joff we just have one of Stannis foolish followers jump on the thing before the guy is crushed like a bug. This event is never again cited nor used as an argument why Joff sucks as a king (in fact, the public or Realm at large does not actually think Joff sucks as king).

The Iron Throne is a symbol of power and people tell stories about it. But those are all superstitious nonsense, told by people who think that this inanimate object does care who sits on it. The only reason why people cut themselves up there is because it is badly made and stupidly sharp as hell.

How much its design sucks you can draw from the fact that Aegon II never sat it again after his restoration. The guy could walk again eventually, though he needed a cane, but apparently the steps are so dangerous and narrow that he didn't dare to ascend it nor did his court have servants try to carry the crippled king up there - which is something they would have likely done if a couple of people could have gone up there together or next to each other.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Lord Varys

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/4/2023 at 4:48 PM, sweetsunray said:

He rarely seemed to actually sit on the IT. We never see him do so in aGoT, and I suspect that he had Jon Arryn listen to complaints while going hunting, just like he does with Ned.

Robert definitely sat on the Iron Throne. He didn't like it, but he did it.

 

Quote

"I swear to you, sitting a throne is a thousand times harder than winning one. Laws are a tedious business and counting coppers is worse. And the people ... there is no end of them. I sit on that damnable iron chair and listen to them complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw. They all want somenthing, money or land or justice. The lies they tell ... and my lords and ladies are no better. I am surrounded by flatterers and fools. It can drive a man to madness, Ned. Half of them don't dare to tell me the truth, and the other half can't find it. There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly, but..."

Ned only sits on it once in AGoT.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I think some made this point, but just to throw my opinion in here as well. Robert was probably cut by the Iron Throne, in fact I would hasten to guess every single leader to sit on the Iron Throne cut themselves on it sometimes. Probably some more than others. Whoever had the most ADHD + the least careful probably cut themselves the most. As to the idea that the "throne" doesn't accept unfit leaders, that is just something people made up. So particularly unpopular Kings are the ones said to be cut the most. Rhaenyra, Maegor, Aegon II, Joffrey, the mad King, these are all rulers who had signifigant detractors, who I believe are described as cutting themselves. They were unpopular monarchs most importantly (at least by some of their subjects). Honestly, Robert, during his actual reign didn't have that many significant detractors, particularly those that would be on hand to notice if he cut himself on the throne. Despite how he took office, the realm was actually relatively peaceful while he was in power. Maegor was King through...a lot of warring, Rhaenyra/Aegon II as well, and finally Joffrey was most recently. Aerys II did not sit in his early reign through warring, but I think Aerys II might be the most unfit King to ever sit the throne, and he was called the "Mad King", it is not shocking that many didn't like him. After all, 4 (and then eventually 5) of the "7" Kingdoms rose in bloody revolt of his rule. 

[Tradecraft]

He was such a bad ruler he rarely sat on the throne. 

A little loophole. 

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/18/2023 at 7:14 AM, Tradecraft said:

He was such a bad ruler he rarely sat on the throne. 

A little loophole. 

Nah. He sat on it all the time.

 

Quote

I swear to you, sitting a throne is a thousand times harder than winning one. Laws are a tedious business and counting coppers is worse. And the people … there is no end of them. I sit on that damnable iron chair and listen to them complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Alester Florent]

If I remember rightly, we have first-hand knowledge of two kings cutting themselves: Aerys (as Jaime mentions it), and Joffrey (which we see). Everything else is from the chronicles, and when we hear of reports of the throne cutting someone the chronicles are usually less clear-cut: Maegor is found dead on the throne, not seen cutting himself; Rhaenyra is said by Aegon's supporters to have cut herself; Viserys is, if I remember rightly, said by only one source to have cut himself, and then at a specific moment.

The reader is I think meant to buy in to some extent to the legend that the throne judges kings and cuts those it finds unworthy. If we're told that a given person cut themselves, then this is a signal they are unworthy in the eyes of those reporting it, or that in that specific moment they are unworthy (the implication in Viserys's case that despite his being a generally good and popular king, his ordering the mutilation of the Velaryons was unworthy). But I'm also not sure we're supposed to buy into it in total. Even at face value, the Throne only seems to act in the most egregious instances. Aenys was a pretty poor king, but we're not told that he cut himself. Ditto Aegon IV. So I certainly don't think we can reverse the presumption, i.e. that rulers the reader thinks are unworthy must therefore cut themselves.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

If I remember rightly, we have first-hand knowledge of two kings cutting themselves: Aerys (as Jaime mentions it), and Joffrey (which we see). Everything else is from the chronicles, and when we hear of reports of the throne cutting someone the chronicles are usually less clear-cut: Maegor is found dead on the throne, not seen cutting himself; Rhaenyra is said by Aegon's supporters to have cut herself; Viserys is, if I remember rightly, said by only one source to have cut himself, and then at a specific moment.

Viserys I's one prominent cut happened in front of court during the Velaryon sentence, so it would have been very well testified - even more so since the subsequent infected wound cost the king two fingers.

Rhaenyra's case is very funny, at least the claim that she cut herself when she first takes physical possession of the throne, as we learn that she ascended the throne fully clad in armor ... and Eustace claims that she cut herself also on her legs. First, her armor would have also covered her legs, so he wouldn't have seen any blood there nor could have have cut herself. More importantly, if she was bloody or visibly bleeding then her wearing armor all day or longer (she flew to KL on Syrax, took possession of the city, and then sat on the throne all through the night until all people in the castle had sworn fealty to her) likely would have to do more with her being sore than the throne. Rhaenyra was a plump and soft woman, not some trained female warrior. This day seems to have been the first and last occasion when she wore armor. So her body would have suffered a lot from her most usual wardrobe choice there.

But to be sure - first sitting on that silly chair and sitting there for 12 hours after you were up all night earlier (flight from Dragonstone to KL on dragonback takes more than a couple of hours, I think, and she was also coordinating a campaign) or so certainly would increase the likelihood you might cut yourself up there - perhaps even on your left hand which you might use to stabilize yourself to ensure you didn't fall asleep up there (which could also be a death sentence...).

But the crucial thing there is that Eustace deliberately decides to interpret and present real or invented cuttings as 'signs of doom' which is a deliberate choice of his, fitting the narrative that Rhaenyra was a pretender/false queen, etc. In context it is quite noteworthy that nobody ever interprets Viserys I cutting himself that one time as a sign he was a false king, pretender.