Corvo the Crow Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) Ned finds Lyanna in a bed of blood, which is interpreted as a bed of labour but unless it is the fighting that broke that caused her to give birth early what are the odds that Ned would find her just about the right time? The apparent inspiration for Lyanna, a noblewoman of Rome, Lucretia, was raped by the son of the last Tarquinian(TargAryan, anyone) king Sextus Tarquinius and she goes to her father and husband and to explain herself and also calls people to witness them, discloses the rape and asks for vengeance and while men debated, she stabs herself in the heart and dies in her father's arms. Lucretia - Wikipedia Is it possible Lyanna was indeed kidnapped and raped and have committed suicide with the chance that arose with Ned drawing out her guardians? Edited July 23, 2023 by Corvo the Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 Possibly, especially if she blames herself for the deaths of her father and brother and the whole war starting. However the idea that Rhaegar's treatment contributed to it would appear to conflict with the accounts she went willingly, unless Rhaegar started off acting nice but then grew increasingly tyrannical/unhinged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: was raped by the last Tarquinian(TargAryan, anyone) king Sextus Tarquinius It was the King's son according to the Wiki article, not the King himself (which actually works better for the parallel), but regardless, does this mean there will be no more Targaryen monarchs? Corvo the Crow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted July 23, 2023 Author Share Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Possibly, especially if she blames herself for the deaths of her father and brother and the whole war starting. However the idea that Rhaegar's treatment contributed to it would appear to conflict with the accounts she went willingly, unless Rhaegar started off acting nice but then grew increasingly tyrannical/unhinged. I can't recall the account of her going willingly. Quote As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here. Was there any other account of how it took place? Being the daughter of a lord and a paramount lord at that, she would have an escort around her at all times, especially since she is not even around Winterfell or even North but in another region. I really doubt that they would willingly let the beloved Lady Lyanna, daughter of their Lord Rickard be taken by Rhaegar, there must've been a fight. That is unless GRRM forgot all about these kind of stuff just as he forgot about giving ladies in waiting to people until much much later. Quote It was the King's son according to the Wiki article, not the King himself (which actually works better for the parallel), but regardless, does this mean there will be no more Targaryen monarchs? Yes I noticed it soon after posting and corrected it, but thanks. Edited July 23, 2023 by Corvo the Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted July 23, 2023 Author Share Posted July 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: does this mean there will be no more Targaryen monarchs? HOPEFULY, yes. I think I saw something on a Tarquinian restoration plot but can't find it now. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 Just now, Corvo the Crow said: I can't recall the account of her going willingly. I thought characters apart from Robert thought that? Admittedly I am just basing this off what someone else on the Forum said so I could be wrong. I think that she could have initially been willing (wilful young teenage girl after all) but I can't see her wanting to stay once she realises her father and brother were so cruelly killed. And if Rhaegar started trying to hide what was going on I don't think she would want to stay either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted July 23, 2023 Author Share Posted July 23, 2023 9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I think that she could have initially been willing (wilful young teenage girl after all) but I can't see her wanting to stay once she realises her father and brother were so cruelly killed. And if Rhaegar started trying to hide what was going on I don't think she would want to stay either. Perhaps, but even if she was willing herself, how could she go off with Rhaegar that easily when she should have an escort with her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: HOPEFULY, yes. I think I saw something on a Tarquinian restoration plot but can't find it now. Tarquinian conspiracy - Wikipedia Quote The Tarquinian conspiracy was a conspiracy amongst a number of senators and leading men of ancient Rome in 509 BC to reinstate the monarchy, and to put Lucius Tarquinius Superbus back on the throne. The conspirators were discovered and executed. The story is part of Rome's early semi-legendary history. No more Targ monarchs Edited July 23, 2023 by Craving Peaches Corvo the Crow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 Nobody commits suicide in ASOIAF. Let alone a character who parallels Lyanna. There's no precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: I can't recall the account of her going willingly. Was there any other account of how it took place? Being the daughter of a lord and a paramount lord at that, she would have an escort around her at all times, especially since she is not even around Winterfell or even North but in another region. I really doubt that they would willingly let the beloved Lady Lyanna, daughter of their Lord Rickard be taken by Rhaegar, there must've been a fight. That is unless GRRM forgot all about these kind of stuff just as he forgot about giving ladies in waiting to people until much much later. Yes I noticed it soon after posting and corrected it, but thanks. She would have had an escort, but probably not a big one. If she was riding around maybe a couple of guardsmen, and if traveling a bit more, maybe 6-8. Enough to keep the locals in check but not deal with serious trouble. An armed party led by the crown prince is serious trouble. Most likely, Lyanna told them not to fight, she'd try and sort it out. This is the sort of thing you sort out with ravens and envoys, not force of arms. 15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I thought characters apart from Robert thought that? Admittedly I am just basing this off what someone else on the Forum said so I could be wrong. I think that she could have initially been willing (wilful young teenage girl after all) but I can't see her wanting to stay once she realises her father and brother were so cruelly killed. And if Rhaegar started trying to hide what was going on I don't think she would want to stay either. No character has thought she went willingly, though plenty of readers do. Ned doesn't think harshly of Rhaegar which is a bit surprising, and tells Arya that Lyanna's wolf blood had helped get her killed, suggesting she acted rashly, but that's all I remember. I think pretty much everyone believes it was a kidnapping. As for suicide I doubt it. We don't see anything suggestive of it in the death scene, and no character has definitely killed themselves, at least absent a greater purpose. Edited July 24, 2023 by Nevets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, Tradecraft said: Nobody commits suicide in ASOIAF. Ashara Dayne would like a word. Actually, she wouldn't, she's too busy being dead after throwing herself off a gods-damn tower. Edited July 24, 2023 by Canon Claude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 1 minute ago, Canon Claude said: Ashara Dayne would like a word. Actually, she wouldn't, she's too busy being dead after throwing herself off a gods-damn tower. Arya questions this suicide in her chapters. And suicide is rare in ASOIAF. You're more likely to be pushed out a window. Like Bran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 Well, Daenerys seems to believe she was taken "at sword point", so it must be openly acknowledged that there was a fight. It seems to fit the wildling "stealing" custom by the way. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted July 25, 2023 Author Share Posted July 25, 2023 8 hours ago, Kal-L said: Well, Daenerys seems to believe she was taken "at sword point", so it must be openly acknowledged that there was a fight. It seems to fit the wildling "stealing" custom by the way. Rhaegar is Mance confirmed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roswell Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 Is it Possible That Lyanna Committed Suicide? It's not only possible but very likely. She preferred death over marrying Robert Baratheon. Eddard kept this truth from Robert to protect his feelings. Rhaegar and Arthur found a Lyanna who was already in the early stages of pregnancy. Lyanna was running to protect her baby. Like Gilly would do years later. The father, or the circumstances of the conception, one of the two, was not good for Rickard Stark. So the father was either Brandon or a wildling like Mance. The north would not accept and it will ruin his plans to bind his family to the Baratheons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 1 hour ago, Roswell said: Is it Possible That Lyanna Committed Suicide? It's not only possible but very likely. She preferred death over marrying Robert Baratheon. Eddard kept this truth from Robert to protect his feelings. Rhaegar and Arthur found a Lyanna who was already in the early stages of pregnancy. Lyanna was running to protect her baby. Like Gilly would do years later. The father, or the circumstances of the conception, one of the two, was not good for Rickard Stark. So the father was either Brandon or a wildling like Mance. The north would not accept and it will ruin his plans to bind his family to the Baratheons. Impressively wild and nonsensical guesswork. the trees have eyes and Lord of Raventree Hall 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 With her baby just born and in great danger, she would not go to suicide. No more than Arya would chose such way for any reason. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 No! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 Probably not, since her final words were "promise me Ned". To me this seems like a woman who's more concerned with the well being of her child, in her final moments of life, which doesn't seem like something a person who was just about to kill themself would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) On 7/23/2023 at 8:17 PM, Nevets said: She would have had an escort, but probably not a big one. If she was riding around maybe a couple of guardsmen, and if traveling a bit more, maybe 6-8. Enough to keep the locals in check but not deal with serious trouble. An armed party led by the crown prince is serious trouble. Most likely, Lyanna told them not to fight, she'd try and sort it out. This is the sort of thing you sort out with ravens and envoys, not force of arms. No character has thought she went willingly, though plenty of readers do. Ned doesn't think harshly of Rhaegar which is a bit surprising, and tells Arya that Lyanna's wolf blood had helped get her killed, suggesting she acted rashly, but that's all I remember. I think pretty much everyone believes it was a kidnapping. As for suicide I doubt it. We don't see anything suggestive of it in the death scene, and no character has definitely killed themselves, at least absent a greater purpose. Does Ned not think harshly of Rhaegar? He compares him to the Lannisters at least twice. All I remember him thinking was that Rhaegar probably didn't go to brothels, but that doesn't mean much. Roose Bolton probably doesn't go to brothels and Edmure Tully probably does. I doubt that she killed herself though. She probably just died in childbirth. Edited August 27, 2023 by Lee-Sensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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