Why Pycelle is so ardently devoted to House Lannister?

[Dragonbane]

I think that all of you questioned on this, one time at least. GRRM in a SSM, I remember, said there is a long backstory on this, but which? First of all, I suppose peacefully that Pycelle was born in the Westerlands, for semplification sake. Pycelle was born in 216 AC (seventh-eight year of Bloodraven, ehm, Aerys I rule). We don't know if he was highborn or lowborn. There are clues for both hypotesis. Personally, I prefer think that Pycelle was lowborn. Pycelle have devoleped this devotion only when Tywin became Hand or before? What do you think on that?

[Alester Florent]

It's a good question. I suppose that Pycelle probably took up his position in KL while Tywin was Hand, and possibly after Aerys had started to decline. Seeing the contrast between Tywin, who at that point was a very capable, dedicated, much-put-upon servant, who probably had a much closer relationship with Pycelle than the king did.

Tywin may also have interceded with Ned and Robert to help Pycelle maintain his position after Tywin's sack. I can imagine Ned telling Robert he couldn't trust Pycelle after he betrayed Aerys to Tywin.

[direpupy]

42 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It's a good question. I suppose that Pycelle probably took up his position in KL while Tywin was Hand, and possibly after Aerys had started to decline.

Pycelle became Grand Maester under Aegon V, but he greatly admired Tywin according to tWoIaF and even wrote letters to citadel praising Tywin as a man born to rule.

[sifth]

Because despite his man, many, MANY flaws, Tywin is still probably the best Hand of the King, in his life time. I feel dirty for say that, because Tywin is a horrible human and one of the series best villains, but dam was the man good at his job.

[Tyrosh Lannister]

We need a pycelle origins story

[Craving Peaches]

Because he's one of those 'ends justify the means' lovers.

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

Pycelle became Grand Maester under Aegon V

He has no excuse then...

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

We need a pycelle origins story

Maybe in a Dunk and Egg?

I doubt we still have any witnesses left for Pycelle in aSoIaF: Walgrave senile, Marwyn off to Slaver's Bay, Aemon and Pycelle and Kevan dead. So, imo the best chance is him having a cameo in a D & E story.

The "planned" (or ideas) installments for follow up stories have these project names

• she wolves of WF: this would involve Lady Lorra Royce who's about to be widowed, because Beron Stark is on his deathbed. Definitely set in the North. We don't know exactly when Beron Stark died, but it would have been between 212 and 221 AC. Pycelle is born in 216, but I doubt very much that he was born in the North. The 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion was in 219. That year Bittersteel was sent to the Wall, but he escaped. Since Egg is still a squire with Dunk and Egg weds Betha Blackwood in 220, my best guess is tat the She Wolves of WF is set in 219, after the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion and Bittersteel's escape, which would provoke BR to search for leads in the North, so that Dunk, Egg and BR all end up at WF. Pycelle would be 3 years old then, but as said, I cannot see him as a northerner. So, no Pycelle origin story here imo.
• The village hero, set in the Riverlands: based on events, that likely is 220 AC when Egg weds Betha Blackwood. Pycelle would be 4. Rohanne Webber has her third son Tytos with Gerold Lannister. I don't see Pycelle being featured in this one either. He could be a Riverlander, but I don't see how either two 220 AC events and a village in the RL could make Pycelle a loyalist to the Lannisters.
• Others are The Sellsword, the Champion, the Kingsguard and the Lord Commander.
  • We don't know when Dunk became KG, but he was known to be with the KG by 236 AC. That's the year of the 4th rebellon and when he slew Daemon III Blackfyre. This seems to be the event most likely to be featured in that idea of George. So, that would be set in the Stormlands, because the Blackfyre landing was at Massey's Hook. Pycelle would be 20 years old then. We know Yandel was a maester by 20 and maester Aemon completed his chain at 19. While this age seems interesting, it might be too late to find out Pycell's backstory then.
  • This means Pycelle ought to be featured in a D& E story after the Village Hero and before the Kingsguard. Up until the village hero there would have been 2 stories set in the Reach, including one introducing Rohanne Webber, later grandmother of Tywin. Mystery Knight is in the Riverlands and so would be the village hero. And then the WF story. The KG story I would expect to be set in the Stormlands, as I said. So that leaves quite a good chance for a story in the Westerlands. These would either be the Sellsword or the Champion, and related for events between 220 AC and 236 AC.
  • Rohanne disappears when Pycelle is 14 in 230 AC. Egg is now wed to Betha Blackwood, so Dunk would be without a squire. We don't seem to have relevant events for Aegon here. All his sons are born already.
  • in 232 AC Aerion Brightflame drinks his wildfire cup. Pycelle is 16 then.
  • Aegon is chosen to be king in 233 AC, after the Peake Uprising in which Maekar I got killed, same year Bloodraven is sent to the Wall. Pycelle would be 17. Ellyn Reyne's betrothed Tywald Lannister and her father get killed in the same Peake Uprising, and she secudes Tion Lannister after.
  • Ellyn Reyne is sent away from CR and wed to Tarbeck when he's 23 in 239 AC, this seems too late for either the Sellsword or the Champion.

 

So, the year of Rohanne's disappearance might be very a good story for Dunk to be featured in a Westerlands story that introduces us to both Ellyn Reyne and Jeyne Marbrand at a tourney, where Dunk would be "the champion" and somehow involved with Rohanne's motivation to disappear. A tourney would be a proper setting for a married prince with children to attend, and act as "squire" just for the heck of it. I'd wager that the featuring of Ellyn would involve her betrothal arrangement to Tywald at such an event and bragging about, while Jeyne is featured as the shy girl, but being betrothed to Tytos, giving us a glimpse of the first sign of the later rivalry. It might not feature Pycelle in person, but he could be mentioned as some sibling of a house who's studying at Oldtown.

So, I wonder whether Pycelle might be a sibling to Jeyne Marbrand. This would make Tywin Lannister a nephew of his and also someone who'd admire him for setting the rival of his sister to rights. Despite her being Tywin's and Kevan's mother, we don't have much info on her family tree. His admiration then is not purely as a fan of Tywin's years as Hand, but quite personal.

Pure speculation of course

Edited August 22, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Loose Bolt]

It is also possible that without Lannister gold Pycelle would be nobody. Or Lannisters supported him against other candidates ( who might have had their own supporters) during election of Grand Maester. 

[Castellan]

He was personally loyal to Tywin, and only to Tywin's family because of that admiration, as far as I can see.

Tywin seems to have been extremely able and sensible in matters of state. In the world of ASOIF also indulging in things like slaughtering the Reynes seems fairly par for the course. Well, somewhat outstanding, I suppose. GRRM has studded this world with cruelty, someone once commented that events like Brienne getting her cheek bitten and Tyrion losing his nose seemed amost fetishistic in their regularity, so are historical backstory horrors. Can't see any point in looking for reasons for these apparent contradictions in Pycelle's attitudes. I don't think Tywin really is a villain in the story, either.

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

47 minutes ago, Castellan said:

He was personally loyal to Tywin, and only to Tywin's family because of that admiration, as far as I can see.

Tywin seems to have been extremely able and sensible in matters of state. In the world of ASOIF also indulging in things like slaughtering the Reynes seems fairly par for the course. Well, somewhat outstanding, I suppose. GRRM has studded this world with cruelty, someone once commented that events like Brienne getting her cheek bitten and Tyrion losing his nose seemed amost fetishistic in their regularity, so are historical backstory horrors. Can't see any point in looking for reasons for these apparent contradictions in Pycelle's attitudes. I don't think Tywin really is a villain in the story, either.

 

Yes, he is. Also, no, events like what happened to the Castamere’s are not common place. It was written to set up how brutal and violent/emotional of a man Tywin is despite acting like he is just being logical. You were meant to read what happens to the Castameres and Tarbecks as a horrible atrocity. If you read it another way, you misread it. 

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, he is. Also, no, events like what happened to the Castamere’s are not common place. It was written to set up how brutal and violent/emotional of a man Tywin is despite acting like he is just being logical. You were meant to read what happens to the Castameres and Tarbecks as a horrible atrocity. If you read it another way, you misread it. 

Agreed. That's why I think a personal motivation with Pycelle to regard the Castameres and Tarbecks and getting what he feels they deserve is a likely candidate. His age matches with the generation of Jeyne Marbrand, whose family tree is the absolute bare minimum, and Elyn Reyne. He'd have a reason to dislike the Castameres and Tarbecks, and have a warped view to regard Tywin as the man who stands up for the more deserving.

Pycelle knows about Cersei's children, and very likely that they are Jaime's. Though he seems to share the sentiments about Tyrion with Tywin. Nevertheless, even after Tyrion's treatment of him and Tywin's death he remains loyal, though he's also troubled by Cersei's self-destructive behavior. But if he regards Cersei and Jaime as his cousins, the grandchildren of his beloved sister that would explain a lot after Tywin's death. 

[Angel Eyes]

I think there's a theory out there somewhere that Pycelle is of Westerlands origin, and may hold some residual loyalty to House Lannister.

[Alester Florent]

The only thing that puts me off the "Pycelle is a close blood relative" hypothesis is that surely this would be known at some level. Would Aerys trust Pycelle's advice to let Tywin into KL over Varys's if Pycelle is Tywin's cousin? Would Ned not be more suspicious of Pycelle under the same circumstances? Sure, Ned might not know Pycelle's family history, but I'd expect Aerys would. 

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The only thing that puts me off the "Pycelle is a close blood relative" hypothesis is that surely this would be known at some level. Would Aerys trust Pycelle's advice to let Tywin into KL over Varys's if Pycelle is Tywin's cousin? Would Ned not be more suspicious of Pycelle under the same circumstances? Sure, Ned might not know Pycelle's family history, but I'd expect Aerys would. 

But would he? If Pycelle joined the Citadel as a teen or older kid (between 7-8 and 14). Lots of siblings are maesters and they don't have a particular loyalty or enmity towards other houses, and officially they abandon their house name. Pycelle has always been good at seeming loyal and helpful while hiding his true loyalties and his whoring. He'd be as adept in masking his personal ties to anyone who cannot suspect. The Marbrand family is not much of a huge powerhouse or illustrous. They're vassals of Lannisters, but come across as mostly a rather small, servile house. It's the house that great lords and kings would consider good proper vassals that know their place and aren't ambitious. A safe vassal. Addam Marbrand is very likeable and amiable too, someone you value, but would not suspect of putting a sword in your back.

By the time Aerys is born in 244. Pycelle is 28 by then, the same year that Tytos becomes lord of CR, and Jeyne becomes Lady of the Rock.Pycelle served as grand maester for over 40 years and during Aegon V's reign. So, he's a fixture at court aleady before Summerhal and Jaehaerys II's short reign, before Aerys II becomes king. By the time Aerys II becomes king in 262 AC, Pycelle is 46 and Aerys is just 18. The latter is not the age where you consider some "old man" in his 40s a threat, let alone bother to investigate. And Pycelle was never disloyal in any way for Aerys to suspect him.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:36 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

We need a pycelle origins story

If George could finish a book, I'm sure that we'd get more about him in the Dunk and Egg series. Just like Aemon and Walder Frey.