Quaithe's motives

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

What do you think are the enigmatic Quaithe's true nature and motives ? 

Why does she appears to Daenerys and talks in particular, and no one else ? 

What was she doing in Qarth, and why was she a représentative of this city, despite being from Asshai ? Was she waiting for Daenerys to come here as part of a prophecy ? 

Also what are her motives into making predictions to Dany, telling her to pass beneath the Shadow, likely meaning to go to Asshai, and warning her about potential traitors and enemies ? Is she truthful in a cryptic way, or is she manipulating Dany ?

Does she have her own motives or is she a messenger for a god, religion or organisation of Asshai ?

[oldbus]

To be honest I'd answer, "No f***ing idea," to all of your questions (though I think they're reasonable questions to ask).

Quaithe, unlike most of GRRM's characters, is someone who has got less impressive the more re-reads I've done.  At first she seems suitably mysterious and offers intriguing hints to Dany.  On re-read I tried to find out more about what her hints might mean and I keep coming away baffled.

On my latest re-read (in company with Stephen Attewell's and Not A Cast Podcast's chapter-by-chapter analyses) it seems I wasn't missing anything.  Rather than focussing on what Quaithe says, this time I am trying to focus on the impact that her statements have on Dany.  However, I've only got as far as the early chapters of SoS so I've plenty to read yet.  From memory, the hints seem only to make Dany a little confused, but don't really help her or especially hinder hew either, which makes the whole thing meh.  Unless there's some kind of revelation from GRRM in Winds (and it is quite possible), I'm tempted to put Quaithe alongside Joffrey's catspaw as some of the less successful writing in ASoIaF.

If you want a crackpot theory (no, I don't believe it), maybve Quaithe is from the House of Urrathon Nightwalker (she appears to be able to use a glass candle and we hear that glass candles burn in that house).  This could make her bride fo Euron ;-)

[Roswell]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:07 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What do you think are the enigmatic Quaithe's true nature and motives ? 

Why does she appears to Daenerys and talks in particular, and no one else ? 

What was she doing in Qarth, and why was she a représentative of this city, despite being from Asshai ? Was she waiting for Daenerys to come here as part of a prophecy ? 

Also what are her motives into making predictions to Dany, telling her to pass beneath the Shadow, likely meaning to go to Asshai, and warning her about potential traitors and enemies ? Is she truthful in a cryptic way, or is she manipulating Dany ?

Does she have her own motives or is she a messenger for a god, religion or organisation of Asshai ?

Quaithe is one of two women.  Shiera Seastar or Elisa Farman.  Pass beneath the shadow does not make sense for Asshai.  If anything, Dany will pass over Asshai.  She can fly on Drogon over the shadow.  Quaithe is suggesting to her to go to Asshai to learn the truth of the past.  There are other ways of learning about that past without physically going to Asshai.  Pass beneath the Shadow is referring to the Long Night.  Dany will have to wait long before she can see the Light again.  She will live beneath the cover of winter like everybody else who survive the battle with the Others and wait for summer to come back. 

[Roswell]

1 minute ago, Roswell said:

Quaithe is one of two women.  Shiera Seastar or Elisa Farman.  Whoever she is she is protecting Dany.  Pass beneath the shadow does not make sense for Asshai.  If anything, Dany will pass over Asshai.  She can fly on Drogon over the shadow.  Quaithe is suggesting to her to go to Asshai to learn the truth of the past.  There are other ways of learning about that past without physically going to Asshai.  Pass beneath the Shadow is referring to the Long Night.  Dany will have to wait long before she can see the Light again.  She will live beneath the cover of winter like everybody else who survive the battle with the Others and wait for summer to come back. 

 

[Tyrosh Lannister]

Urrathon Nightwalker could be Euron. Urrathon is an ironborn name. 

 

As for Quaithes motives, she seems to want Dany to remember that she is the blood of the dragon - a targaryen. She wants Dany to use fire and blood instead of planting olive trees. Why does she want this ? Not sure. 

[Aebram]

That's a lot of questions, about one of the most mysterious characters in the entire story. I have a few thoughts about these two:

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What was she doing in Qarth, and why was she a representative of this city, despite being from Asshai ?

She doesn't seem to be a representative of the city. Qarth is governed by the Pureborn, and neither she nor her two companions identified themselves as representing them.

Quote

The pale man with the blue lips replied in guttural Dothraki, “I am Pyat Pree, the great warlock.” The bald man with the jewels in his nose answered in the Valyrian of the Free Cities, “I am Xaro Xhoan Daxos of the Thirteen, a merchant prince of Qarth.” The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, “I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons.” (Clash 12)

The way they introduce themselves suggests that they are representing other groups: Pyat for the warlocks, Xaro for the traders, and Quaithe for the shadowbinders. As the story unfolds, we find that the first two are motivated by self-interest. The warlocks tried to kill Daenerys, and Xaro tried to persuade or deceive her into giving up one of her dragons.

But Quaithe's motives are more mysterious. She appears to Daenerys several times, to give instructions and advice; but her words are so cryptic, neither Daenerys nor we know exactly what they mean.  Quaithe is aware of the rising "tide" of magic in the world, so it seems likely that she wants Daenerys to play some important part in what's happening.  But she hasn't asked Daenerys to do anything specific, except to "remember who you are."

On the question of why she is in Qarth: she clearly has some ability to communicate telepathically with Daenerys. Perhaps she is in contact with other shadowbinders the same way. There may be a network of shadowbinders that are working behind the scenes to influence world events.

[BalerionTheCat]

Quaithe seems to be a Blood Mage from Asshai. But are the Bloof Mages all on the same side, like the Red Priests? Or are they each on their own agenda? My guess is, she is on her own, like Melisandre and Euron. But is she for our own good (or Dany)? I don't know. Maybe. But not very likely.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

I believe the theory Quaithe is Shiera who’s there to make sure that House Targaryen finally gets its place restored in Westeros and that she’s trying to goad her to get back the Iron Throne.

[Tyrosh Lannister]

On 8/26/2023 at 5:39 PM, Aebram said:

That

Why does Quaithe speak in riddles to Dany????

[Loose Bolt]

9 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Why does Quaithe speak in riddles to Dany????

I suspect that Q is not real person. So she is either dream or hallucination of Dany. Or someone has created an illusion about Q to manipulate Dany.

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:59 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Quaithe seems to be a Blood Mage from Asshai. But are the Bloof Mages all on the same side, like the Red Priests? Or are they each on their own agenda? My guess is, she is on her own, like Melisandre and Euron. But is she for our own good (or Dany)? I don't know. Maybe. But not very likely.

She’s a shadowbinder, her mask is the giveaway.

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Most sinister of all the sorcerers of Asshai are the shadowbinders, whose lacquered masks hide their faces from the eyes of gods and men. They alone dare to go upriver past the walls of Asshai, into the heart of darkness.

And we know what her agenda is (at least partly) she wants Dany to go to Asshai:

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“Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you have me go?” she asked.
            “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”
            Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for 
me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?”
            “Truth,” said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.”

Dany guesses Asshai and Quaithe confirms it by her answer as to Dany’s follow up question.  The only question is why.  What truth awaits Dany in Asshai?

Xaro tells Dany she won’t like the answer to that question:

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Xaro Xhoan Daxos had watched the whole exchange from his cushions. When Dany climbed back into the palanquin beside him, he said, “Your savages are wiser than they know. Such truths as the Asshai’i hoard are not like to make you smile.”

I think it has to do with Quaithe’s constant refrain when she “visits” Dany:

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“Remember who you are.”

And this in turn, I think, has to do with the first question Quaithe asked Dany when she met her in the streets of Qarth.

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The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are 
the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

I think she’s trying to remind Dany about Dany’s most important role.  Now, why would a shadow binder from Asshai be interested in having the Mother of Dragons go to Asshai.  Remember what makes Dany so special.  Dany is the only one who has ever (to our knowledge) hatched dragons from fossilized eggs.

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“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

It’s an Asshai prophecy, so if nothing else, Dany woke dragons out of stone.  So why is this so important to the Asshai?

Perhaps, it’s because fossilized dragon eggs, may be something that Asshai has plenty of.

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In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us.

So, if dragons first came from the shadow by Asshai, why aren’t there any dragons or dragon riders in Asshai?  My guess is, they stopped hatching, and the eggs turned to stone, as they are wont to do after a certain time has passed.  Which is allegedly where Illyrio got Dany’s eggs.

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“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”

 Which may explain this part of Bran’s vision:

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothraki under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Interestingly enough, Bran’s vision doesn’t show the dragons in the Dothraki Sea where Dany hatched her dragons.  It shows them stirring in Asshai.  My guess is that’s why Quaithe wants Dany to go to Asshai.  To wake the thousands of dragons that are trapped in stone in the Shadow lands of Asshai.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

12 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Why does Quaithe speak in riddles to Dany????

I suspect the visions she sees aren’t exactly helping her either, like she’s only seeing what the visions are showing her and she needs to find the words to help understand wtf she say.

[sweetsunray]

Quaithe's cryptic role and motivation issue:

I agree with @Frey family reunion 's proposal for the Quaithe of aCoK and aSoS. But then in aDwD she gets the role of someone who's warning Dany from people who are after her dragons. There's a shift in roles.

And I think the reason is George and him dropping the 5 year gap.

• In aGoT he had Dany journey from Pentos to Vaes Dothrak in 3 chapters: meeting Drogo in Pentos, her wedding in Pentos, arrival at the grasslands with a few paragraphs on the journey, and then her arrival at Vaes Dothrak. In the same book, she then journeys from Vaes Dothrak to the Red Waste in 2. In the last chapters of the Red Waste, Jorah urges Dany to go to Asshai twice: before MMD's ritual as Drogo is near death, before Dany stepts into the pyre and hatches dragons. Asshai is mentioned 16 times in aGoT.
• In aCoK Dany journeys the red waste in 1 chapter and arrives at Qarth by the second (mostly on foot). Jorah is still for Asshai. Then Quaithe adds her voice for Asshai. And by the time they leave Jorah changes his mind - not Asshai but Slaver's Bay. Asshai is discussed or in Dany's mind in a total of 6 times in aCoK.
• In aSoS, Quaithe repeats her exact same advice on "beneath the shadow". Nobody else mentions or thinks of it anymore.
• In aDwD, Dany herself repeats Quaithe's sentence about "beneath the shadow" in a yeah-yeah-yeah tone. And Xaro mentions Asshai once in a non-relevant way.

I think that originally (when he wrote aGoT) George had some vague intent or idea to let her go to Asshai. And seemed entirely possible given the distance that Dany did in little over a year. In aCoK George has the baton to advocate for Asshai handed over to Quaithe, while Jorah isn't enamoured with it anymore. He worked and spied for Illyrio up until Qarth, but when the cheesemonger sends Selmy and Belwas he moves away from advizing stuff that Illyrio may wish. And he needs to pace Dany in Essos for the other POVs in Westeros. But equally he sends Jorah away from Dany, so that he can't harp about distrusting Quaithe or argue not to go to Asshai when the time comes.

According to George a lot of stuff happened in aSoS in a short amount of time that he intended to require a lot more time (like a year) in-world: that one book would have covered a bigger time span with all that happened, but it's not even a year. He inserts Quaithe once so we wouldn't forget about her still being in the picture as is a journey to Asshai eventually.

Then comes his attempt at writing aDwD with a 5 year gap. But he has issues with the story for the older POVs not waiting around for the younger POVs to grow up another 5 years, needs to write too many flashbacks, which is a writing tool he just doesn't like to use much. So, he drops the year gap, starts anew and announces aFfC.

Once he dropped the 5 year gap, and struggled with the Meereenese knot, I believe he threw any plans for Dany to journey Beyond the Bones to Asshai into the bin, in relation to the events in Westeros. Suddenly he's facing a scenario where Dany gets a lot on her plate to even make it to Westeros at the time he wants her to get there. But he already wrote-in Quaithe and he cannot leave that hanging. He has to give her a new story purpose in relation to Dany's story. He's going to use her as her special guide who warns against people who are after her dragons and to remember who she is (Jorah's initial role too). Now he needs to work out some type of magic with which he can have Quaithe do that, without having to feature her as a person in the story (because that means background, etc). Yes, glass candles were mentioned in Qarth in aCoK, and Quaithe already contacted Dany using those in aSoS. So, it wasn't invented as a thing after aSoS, but it would serve a bigger role than he may have anticipated. So, now it becomes important to him to feature glass candles in aFfC, and since his decision to split aFfC and aDwD geographically, he gets to introduce glass candle magic entirely seperate from Dany in aDwD: in the prologue and Sam's last chapter at the Citadal. And we know that George wrote several drafts for different POVs for aFfC where his main concern were the "glass candles".

Quaithe's cryptic messages and her role becoming "meh" is imo related to a dropped voyage to Asshai. First he had to pace Dany and have her stay put, but then that becomes so huge and it deserves a proper narrative to wrap up, and a journey to Asshai where she learns about Azor Ahai, and Yi Ti, and Great Empire of the Dawn, yadayadayada taking her further away from Westeros for legends has no place anymore.

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree with @Frey family reunion 's proposal for the Quaithe of aCoK and aSoS. But then in aDwD she gets the role of someone who's warning Dany from people who are after her dragons. There's a shift in roles.

And I think the reason is George and him dropping the 5 year gap.

• In aGoT he had Dany journey from Pentos to Vaes Dothrak in 3 chapters: meeting Drogo in Pentos, her wedding in Pentos, arrival at the grasslands with a few paragraphs on the journey, and then her arrival at Vaes Dothrak. In the same book, she then journeys from Vaes Dothrak to the Red Waste in 2. In the last chapters of the Red Waste, Jorah urges Dany to go to Asshai twice: before MMD's ritual as Drogo is near death, before Dany stepts into the pyre and hatches dragons. Asshai is mentioned 16 times in aGoT.
• In aCoK Dany journeys the red waste in 1 chapter and arrives at Qarth by the second (mostly on foot). Jorah is still for Asshai. Then Quaithe adds her voice for Asshai. And by the time they leave Jorah changes his mind - not Asshai but Slaver's Bay. Asshai is discussed or in Dany's mind in a total of 6 times in aCoK.
• In aSoS, Quaithe repeats her exact same advice on "beneath the shadow". Nobody else mentions or thinks of it anymore.
• In aDwD, Dany herself repeats Quaithe's sentence about "beneath the shadow" in a yeah-yeah-yeah tone. And Xaro mentions Asshai once in a non-relevant way.

I don't think George ever meant for us to travel to Asshai with Dany.  It's either Dany's absolute end game, of which the readers won't be taken along, or the mere threat of Dany going to Asshai, that's important.

It basically is the reason why Dany would be an apocalyptic threat of the fire variety.  Her three dragons, are all well and good but they don't nearly have the firepower to create an apocalyptic scenario in Westeros.  Aegon and his sisters' three dragons weren't even enough to conquer Dorne and they were far larger and more powerful than Dany's dragons.  The Dance with Dragons had a lot more dragons most of which were also much bigger and more powerful than Dany's dragons and their open warfare wasn't enough to create an apocalyptic scenario.

So presumably, George wants to keep uping the stakes, not lowering them.  So what sets Dany apart, and what makes her extremely dangerous, is her ability to wake dragons from stone.  As far as we know, she's been the only one who has ever been able to do this.  And if it turns out that the Shadowbinders of Asshai have thousands of dragon eggs they want hatched, than that's the apoclypic scenario.  Dany ultimately travelling to Asshai and hatching their eggs.  

And I think that's why we see this vision through Bran.  Bran is being directed to the end games of both fire and ice.  The dragons stirring beneath the sunrise in Asshai is the end game of the fire variety.

If Dany is killed because of the threat she poses, than this may be the reason why.

Quaith isn't vague on where she wants Dany to go, she's vague on why she wants Dany to go there.  Quaithe understanding that Dany is hell bent on going to Westeros, gives Dany a warning about trusting the people that will claim to befriend her along the way.  So when Dany is ultimately betrayed by them and her Westeros plans turn to shambles, which they most probably will, she'll remember who she truly is.  The Mother of Dragons.  And that's what will ultimately make her turn back to Asshai, where Quaith wanted her to go in the first place.  And why Dany shouldn't be allowed to get there.

 

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think George ever meant for us to travel to Asshai with Dany.  It's either Dany's absolute end game, of which the readers won't be taken along, or the mere threat of Dany going to Asshai, that's important.

Asshai may be related to Dany's end game or ending. But the path to it was always adaptable to George except for some crucial events joining up again. So, going to Asshai before the endgame or thinking of going there to birth an army of dragons at the end would work for George either way. So, I don't disagree with your proposal that it is tied to her endgame since the very beginning. I'm just saying we do have some writing background to argue that the geographical way he wanted Dany to get there may have changed, and it affected how he uses Quaithe and the glass candles since dropping the 5 year gap. And there's no denying that George has struggled with Dany's story in Essos in alignment with Westeros more and more.

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Asshai may be related to Dany's end game or ending. But the path to it was always adaptable to George except for some crucial events joining up again. So, going to Asshai before the endgame or thinking of going there to birth an army of dragons at the end would work for George either way. So, I don't disagree with your proposal that it is tied to her endgame since the very beginning. I'm just saying we do have some writing background to argue that the geographical way he wanted Dany to get there may have changed, and it affected how he uses Quaithe and the glass candles since dropping the 5 year gap. And there's no denying that George has struggled with Dany's story in Essos in alignment with Westeros more and more.

I just don't think Dany was ever meant to go to Asshai before she went to Westeros.  It's why George via Quaithe is so cryptic with her "advice" to Dany.  The resolution to her riddle is something to be solved at the end, not the middle of the story.  

I don't think the five year gap had Dany going to Asshai off screen.  I think the purpose of the five year gap, was to let Dany rule Mereen and Jon serve as Lord Commander, while he gave time for some of his other characters to age up (namely Sansa and Arya).  My guess is the plan was scrapped because he had no idea what to do with Bran for the five years between ASOS and ADWD.

Quaithe is trying to tempt Dany to go to Asshai with the vague promise that she'll need to find the truth there before she'll be ready to go conquer Westeros.  And note that her advice isn't as simple as a geographic reroute:

 

Quote

To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east.  To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.

"To go forward you must go back", doesn't relate to Dany's geographic travels.   Remember she's given this advice in Qarth the furthest south and east Dany's ever been.  Instead, it relates to going back in time, far back in time I think to when Asshai had dragons.  "Eons" ago as Illyrio stated.  She wants Dany to return the dragons to Asshai, by waking their eggs which lay in the Shadow Lands.  

For Quaithe, Dany's trip to Westeros is a wrong turn, because it distracts her from her most important role, the Mother of Dragons.  And Quaithe's belief is probably that for Dany to fulfill that role she has to go to Asshai to give "birth" to many, many dragons.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think the five year gap had Dany going to Asshai off screen.  I think the purpose of the five year gap, was to let Dany rule Mereen and Jon serve as Lord Commander, while he gave time for some of his other characters to age up (namely Sansa and Arya).  My guess is the plan was scrapped because he had no idea what to do with Bran for the five years between ASOS and ADWD.

I didn't propose an offscreen journey to Asshai. The 5 year gap was imo having Dany journey to Asshai after having ruled Meereen for 5 years and in Asshai she would encounter glass candles and learn of the many eggs, the legends etc. At this point she wouldn't do much with it except seeing the beginning disaster unfold at Westeros to come to the rescue.

But he had too much flashbacks of Dany ruling Meereen in there that he scrapped the whole thing. He's on record of saying that there were more flahsbacks than present story for some of the adult POVs and it being a huge part of his motivation of scrapping the 5 year gap. I can only conclude this was mostly Dany's story, because apparently Jon's story ruling the NW for 5 years was quiet and peaceful with not much happening.

Once he scrapped it, he ended up believing he just needed to write the large flashback as a current story in Meereen. During aFfC he still juggled a lot with that and was heavily focused on glass candle magic another way: via the Citadel...

But the issues were not over with, so he rearranged aFfC and aDwD to have POVs according to geography.

Once he began to write aDwD, he still ran into the Meereenese knot. Even the huge flashback story he had for Dany that he had started to rework for a prior non-geographical aFfC needed a lot of rewriting and rearranging. So, yeah, Dany's story was a big reason why he ended up dropping the 5 year gap, especially in contrast to Jon's lightweight ruling years.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My guess is the plan was scrapped because he had no idea what to do with Bran for the five years between ASOS and ADWD.

Martin has said in interviews that while he wanted the gap primarily to age up the younger characters, he ultimately scrapped it because it would require too many flashbacks and silly things like Jon writing stuff along the lines of, “Well, I’ve been LC for 5 years and not much has happened yadda yadda yadda”. 

[sweetsunray]

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin has said in interviews that while he wanted the gap primarily to age up the younger characters, he ultimately scrapped it because it would require too many flashbacks and silly things like Jon writing stuff along the lines of, “Well, I’ve been LC for 5 years and not much has happened yadda yadda yadda”. 

Yup, he had nothing for Jon for those 5 years, and too much flashbacks for Cersei (KL) and Dany (Meereen) that outweighed their story in the 5 year gap present. Given that there never was much of KL-knot but there was a Meereenese knot (incuding getting everyone in Meereen around the same time) even after dropping the 5 year gap makes Dany's story very suspect of having been altered a lot in comparison to what he had in mind when he started writing after aSoS.  

ETA: link to post about this subject on the pinned thread in general:

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I didn't propose an offscreen journey to Asshai. The 5 year gap was imo having Dany journey to Asshai after having ruled Meereen for 5 years and in Asshai she would encounter glass candles and learn of the many eggs, the legends etc. At this point she wouldn't do much with it except seeing the beginning disaster unfold at Westeros to come to the rescue.

Ok, I understand your point now.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  You may very well be right, I just don't think that's where George is going with this, but I could very well be wrong.