Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Per the title says, what is your opinion on the Kingsguard that protected and served Aerys II and Rhaegar Targaryen, before and during Robert's Rebellion, composed of Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne "the Sword of the Morning", Barristan Selmy, Lewyn Martell, Oswell Whent, Jonothor Darry and the others ? What do you think about their loyalty and obedience toward Aerys and Rhaegar, their attitude toward their knights and kingsguards' vows, toward Jaime before and after he killed Aerys, and their actions before and during the rebellion caused by their masters ? Do you see them as exemplary knights and kingsguards, or as self-righteous or blind hypocrites, or as something between the two ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthurs Dawn Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) It would be a difficult position to be in. Given the history of some Targaryen kings, I would think that every man who swore the KG oaths would consider the possibility that they may eventually be protecting a tyrant. And that doesn't just go for Targaryens, but any man or woman who demands you swear unwavering loyalty to them. Of course, in most cases you can hardly make such predictions. I already have a habit of considering negative scenarios to every minor decision I make. But vowing to defend and support a king for life, no questions asked? I don't know. I think I would walk away knowing that eventually I would most likely be forced to sacrifice either my vows or morality. However, I can never get behind defending a king like Aerys after he inflicts harm on innocent people. My own conscience tells me I should have low opinions of all of them for standing by while Aerys harmed his wife. Siding with Rhaegar to remove Aerys from power? I can get behind that. But when Rhaegar stalls his plans and instead spirits away a young girl and now you're guarding a tower to make sure no one gets in or out? Can't get behind that. Darry and Selmy: defended their inaction and hid behind their oaths Dayne, Whent, and Hightower: defected to Rhaegar, only to blindly follow him as well Martell: not enough information, and I have to wonder what his stance was on Rhaegar after certain events took place Jaime: stood by, but initially spoke up, and in the end chose his knightly vows over his KG Whatever choices they made, they all paid dearly for it. Whatever vows they took, they all had a choice. Challenging a system like that would definitely be hard, and we see through Jaime that his choice is unacceptable in their eyes. These men were exemplary warriors, and even good men at heart. But they failed as knights and were doomed to fail as members of the kingsguard. Edited August 30, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn Kal-L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Good Kingsguards, bad knights. Lilac & Gooseberries 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odej Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 This debate always reminds me of this passage from ACOK “How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?” Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.” Craving Peaches, Willam Stark, Ser Arthurs Dawn and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 They don't deserve to be called "knights" except Teen Jaime. They are just...well kingsguards. Lilac & Gooseberries 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 5 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said: I would think that every man who swore the KG oaths would consider the possibility that they may eventually be protecting a tyrant. I mean, aren’t all monarchs basically tyrants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, James Steller said: I mean, aren’t all monarchs basically tyrants? No, just Maegor, Aegon IV and Aerys II. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted August 30, 2023 Author Share Posted August 30, 2023 5 hours ago, Odej said: This debate always reminds me of this passage from ACOK “How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?” Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.” Well they certainely didn't forsake the vows that weren't worth staying true to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 Aerys would have had the best but the inclusion of the nasty Jaime Lannister brought down the institution of the KG. Quality and honor went downhill just like the welfare of the kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, The Commentator said: Aerys would have had the best but the inclusion of the nasty Jaime Lannister brought down the institution of the KG. Quality and honor went downhill just like the welfare of the kingdom. At least Jaime didn't want to stand by while an innocent woman was raped and assaulted, unlike the 'best' who stood by and did f*** all. They were so great they were proud to be propping up a sadistic tyrant who wanted to slaughter half a million people. Good riddance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odej Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) When you think about it, the dramas of a Kingsguard are common to any knight or soldier who serves a Lord. It is absurd to think that all Stark kings and lords were as honorable as Ned and never ordered controversial actions or omissions from their servants. This goes for any other noble house. In the end, Westeros is a feudal society. Obedience to one's masters is not only a matter of honoring an oath, but also driven by the risk of one's own neck. Aerys and Rhaegar's actions crossed the line so much that they ended up triggering a rebellion that removed the Targaryens from power, but in general people just turn a blind eye. Just see how even though he was considered the worst king of Westeros, Aegon IV ruled until his death. It's great to think that if it were me I'd never submit, but there's no sword pointed at my throat as I type. Edited September 1, 2023 by Odej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 On 8/30/2023 at 2:32 PM, Willam Stark said: They don't deserve to be called "knights" except Teen Jaime. They are just...well kingsguards. That’s a stretch. Jaime joined the Kingsguard with the intention of screwing his sister and possible future queen. He also lied to Tyrion about his wife. Jaime was shit even as a teen. Arthur Peres 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 15 hours ago, The Wolves said: Jaime joined the Kingsguard with the intention of screwing his sister and possible future queen. He also lied to Tyrion about his wife. Screwing his sister was part of it, but he joined the Kingsguard because it was a honor for him and wanted fame like all young knights. Besides, he cared about the smallfolk and killed not only Aerys but also the other pyromancers after the Sack to protect them, that's what makes him a true knight. He wasn't a teen when the Tysha incident occured, since he was 20 years old and became a shithead in adulthood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) A lot of them seemed like kind and honorable people, who sadly swore themselves to a mad king. I mean we've literally been inside Barristan's head, the guy is probably the second most honorable person in the series. Jamie just joined, to sleep with his sister. Edited September 2, 2023 by sifth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Willam Stark said: Screwing his sister was part of it, but he joined the Kingsguard because it was a honor for him and wanted fame like all young knights. Besides, he cared about the smallfolk and killed not only Aerys but also the other pyromancers after the Sack to protect them, that's what makes him a true knight. He wasn't a teen when the Tysha incident occured, since he was 20 years old and became a shithead in adulthood. No. He joined without any intention of staying true to his vows. He joined to run away from a match with Lysa Tully, and to screw his sister. Jaime never cared about smallfolk, he let his sister in law be raped, lied to his brother about it and screwed his sister. Jaime killed the king he sworn to serve not to save anybody but because he wanted and kept the wildfire plot that still can kill everyone a secret because of his sulk pride after losing in a staring contest against Ned. Later on the man tried to kill 2 inocent kids and had the gal to brag about it to their mother. Jaime uses his vows to run away from the responsability of his actions. Barristan has more time as KG, also served Aerys and nobody can deny the honor of the man. Barristan also had a crush, but never acted on it, he defended the king even when the man was worthless, he protected the inocent when he convicend Aerys to spare a young Dontos, he joined Ned in going against the murder of Daenerys and the list of noble actions keep growing. Edited September 2, 2023 by Arthur Peres Kal-L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 To respond to the topic. Everybody that joined the KG before Aerys being King is noble and is also a victim of a eternal vow when they cannot forsee the future and the type of king they would come to serve. Everybody that swore the oath after Aerys being cleary mad are human trash. (It was not clear that he was insane and cruel at the start) Kal-L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted September 3, 2023 Share Posted September 3, 2023 16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Jaime never cared about smallfolk He did when he was a teen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted September 3, 2023 Share Posted September 3, 2023 3 hours ago, Willam Stark said: He did when he was a teen. No he didn’t!! He sure didn’t care when Tywin and his men terrorized Kings Landing. He never cared about them ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 3, 2023 Share Posted September 3, 2023 On 9/2/2023 at 3:51 PM, Arthur Peres said: No. He joined without any intention of staying true to his vows. He joined to run away from a match with Lysa Tully, and to screw his sister. Jaime never cared about smallfolk, he let his sister in law be raped, lied to his brother about it and screwed his sister. Jaime killed the king he sworn to serve not to save anybody but because he wanted and kept the wildfire plot that still can kill everyone a secret because of his sulk pride after losing in a staring contest against Ned. Later on the man tried to kill 2 inocent kids and had the gal to brag about it to their mother. Jaime uses his vows to run away from the responsability of his actions. Barristan has more time as KG, also served Aerys and nobody can deny the honor of the man. Barristan also had a crush, but never acted on it, he defended the king even when the man was worthless, he protected the inocent when he convicend Aerys to spare a young Dontos, he joined Ned in going against the murder of Daenerys and the list of noble actions keep growing. To be fair, most of those things happened after the Rebellion. Willam Stark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanBeanedMeUp Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 From what I've read about them, they were the best knights of their time and thus the Kingsguard they were in was possibly the best skilled during the group's history. And yet as luck would have it they had to serve a king who, to put it mildly, absolutely didn't deserve them. Really a tragicomic twist of fate that the greatest Kingsguard of all time existed only to protect the maddest Targaryen king. I saw people reminiscing about Aerys II's Kingsguard as GRRM writing about the theme of nostalgia, and the desire to return to simpler, more innocent times. But also how said nostalgia can be marred by the fact that sometimes those times were pretty shit, since Aerys II was king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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