Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[SpaceChampion]

28 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 suspect the band will break up in Falme, and Nynaeve and Elayne will travel directly to Tanchico by a Sea Folk ship, which geographically makes sense. With Moghedien in Falme, maybe she'll do something that causes Moiraine to want to investigate Tanchico, but she can't go herself.

I agree.  The likely scenario is the ter'angreal cache is in Falme, and a bunch of Black Ajah + Moggy abscond with what they can grab, leading to Nynaeve and Elayne going there.

It might be Egwene also goes through the red doorframe ter'angreal and decides she has to go to the Aiel Waste too.

I would think that leads them to going east by ship too, and end up in Ebou Dar in season 4 to meet the Kin, do the thing with Bowl, etc.   Perhaps also trying to warning Tylin about the likelihood of a Seanchan invasion.

I wonder if Moiraine will get her battle with Lanfear on the docks after all, but in Falme instead -- and they do disappear into the doorframe as prisoners, but Mat eventually rescues her going through the other doorframe in Rhuidean. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Corvinus85]

35 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I wonder if Moiraine will get her battle with Lanfear on the docks after all, but in Falme instead -- and they do disappear into the doorframe as prisoners, but Mat eventually rescues her going through the other doorframe in Rhuidean. 

I doubt it because it won't help Rand's character descent into darkness much. Right now Rand doesn't care quite as much for Moiraine, they hanged out in Cairhien a bit, but that's it. And the question is should Moiraine be aware of her fate or not? She faced Lanfear knowing what would happen. Now the show has established that she would absolutely do this yet at the same time we saw her persona falter somewhat because of the false knowledge that she had been stilled. Because if the answer is yes, then Moiraine needs to go to Rhuidean first.

[Wouter]

15 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Didn't Ishy tell Fain that the Dark One had given Lanfear the gift of immortal life? That indicated to me that she might be special in that way (which honestly, I kinda don't like, but considering her fate with the doors and Sandersons' reveal about her, it kinda fits. maybe).

It's quite possible, even likely given the books, that all the forsaken/chosen have the gift of immortal life. Lanfear being one of the chosen, then would also have that (which Fain may not have known). It doesn't have to mean that only Lanfear has that, given that Ishy is more or less her superior and the DO's favorite, as his only true supporter. Sure, Lanfear also did him a great service, but would he give her such a great gift for that and deny the same to his most trused lieutenant?

Lanfear wouldn't need to die if they follow the books, just trap her for a while and have her come back.

[karaddin]

I missed this exchange a few days ago, soft confirmation that the dagger on a stick isn't the end game weapon

 

So I guess we won't be joining hands to mock it after all.

[SpaceChampion]

That's an unexpected plot twist:  Brandon Sanderson is an unreliable narrator!

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

It's quite possible, even likely given the books, that all the forsaken/chosen have the gift of immortal life. Lanfear being one of the chosen, then would also have that (which Fain may not have known). It doesn't have to mean that only Lanfear has that, given that Ishy is more or less her superior and the DO's favorite, as his only true supporter. Sure, Lanfear also did him a great service, but would he give her such a great gift for that and deny the same to his most trused lieutenant?

Lanfear wouldn't need to die if they follow the books, just trap her for a while and have her come back.

The reason I singled out that Lanfear was specifically mentioned is that Ishy's death didn't follow the same pattern. If Ishy also has immortal life in the same vein as Lanfear, then I'd expect his body to regenerate, not disintegrate. That's the specific gift I was talking about. The fact that any of them can be brought back by the Dark One is immortal life is some ways, but separate in my mind from how they are presenting Lanfear. 

Vain Lanfear would want to have an immortal life in this fabulous body, but if Ishy was offered that, do we really think he would accept? :p

[Gertrude]

3 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

That's an unexpected plot twist:  Brandon Sanderson is an unreliable narrator!

Well, yeah. Sanderson also said he fought to get the Horn in, and Sarah said it was always part of the plan. I know Sanderson has a shit ton more insight into the world that we do, but he's just a guy who's a peripheral part of the process. and has his own views.

[Arakasi]

It’s because Lanfear didn’t die. What about that scene indicated that she died? It certainly wasn’t shown as such when Moiraine two secs after shanking her pulled Rand and said they had to run. It was always presented to the audience that what Moiraine did was insufficient to kill a forsaken more just an inconvenience.

And since it was pointed out that Ishamaels death was exactly the same as presented in TDR it seems likely we’ll get him back later in the series. But yes his will be a resurrection.

[karaddin]

A sword heated up to the point it melts the blade isn't going to ash the whole corpse like that, but it is going to make an absolute mess of the heart and surrounding areas of the chest even before you take into account a bunch of molten steel left in the wound. That does pass a higher mortality bar than a shank and a bloody smile.

It does make me wonder if decapitation or massive brain trauma would have done the job, was the issue just that Moiraine doesn't have enough physical strength to inflict the necessary wounds?

[fionwe1987]

I think him turning to ash, and saying that he sees "nothing" is the Dark One using his link to Ishy's soul to capture it. This is the process Balefire interferes with. 

I think Ishy hopes he'll only have to deal with Rand and Co in his next birth, but instead he's going to find the Dark One has decided he needs to recycle, since he has so few top level Forsaken left, and he needs the one guy who has philosophical reasons to want his victory. 

That can even give his return a somewhat tragic twist, and his urgency to turn Rand and end it all would then make for some interesting character work. 

 

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, Arakasi said:

It’s because Lanfear didn’t die. What about that scene indicated that she died? It certainly wasn’t shown as such when Moiraine two secs after shanking her pulled Rand and said they had to run. It was always presented to the audience that what Moiraine did was insufficient to kill a forsaken more just an inconvenience.

And since it was pointed out that Ishamaels death was exactly the same as presented in TDR it seems likely we’ll get him back later in the series. But yes his will be a resurrection.

I know Lanfear didn't die. However, the visual storytelling between the two is very different. Lanfear takes a (usually) mortal wound, then fuckery and the True Power coalesces into her to heal her. With Ishy, he's dust without even an attempt to save him. If it was that Moiraine didn't do enough damage, but Rand did, I might have expected to see a failed attempt to hold Ishy together. Those two deaths were just so different, it seems to me that they have different rules.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

To me it’s not really important what healed Lanfear. (Like say if it was the OP instead of the TP) The important part is that Moiraine who didn’t even stick around knew that it was not a killing blow and she was not capable without the power of killing Lanfear. The scene would have been very different if she had stood over Lanfear and gone “phew I got here in time, thankfully Lanfear let her guard down and I was able to kill her” and then Lanfear heals herself and gets up. That would make it look like she came back from death but since Moiraine said flat out this isn’t going to work we get to skip past any thought of death. Wot geeks just get to go gaga over the Saa.

Anyway I think there is enough difference between incinerating your enemy with a power imbued sword and stabbing someone and cutting their throat. They do seem to be giving the forsaken a bit more sturdiness than in the books. How this will carry over to Demandred who was killed in a mundane way I’m not sure but that’s a long time away. Maybe Lan is better at knowing how to finish someone off.

[karaddin]

If you do Taimandred then that whole ending is changed up anyway. Egwene and Gawyn fighting him as a pair with Egwene spontaneously doing her burn out immediately after Gawyn dies could work. Of course that means Lan doesn't take him out which would outrage some, but you're going to need to move things around if there isn't a separate M'Hael.

[fionwe1987]

Lanfear, as Cyndane, also dies by mundane means, in the end. So yeah, this enhanced toughness thing is going to mean changes to all kinds of scenes. 

[Myrddin]

18 hours ago, Arakasi said:

There was a wotup vid today and there was a script leak with Coulladin that looks straight from the books. 

So he dies off screen?

[Arakasi]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Lanfear, as Cyndane, also dies by mundane means, in the end. So yeah, this enhanced toughness thing is going to mean changes to all kinds of scenes. 

No she doesn’t. Lanfear lives. (As confirmed by Sanderson) She is the only forsaken to be free after the series. Moghedien gets taken prisoner by Seanchan and Grandaels brain gets fried. Basically Lanfear staged her death with Perrin there. Which makes sense since that scene as I originally read it made zero sense.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Arakasi

[Arakasi]

3 hours ago, Myrddin said:

So he dies off screen?

Well the season only goes up to end of book four so WAFO I suppose. But yeah I hope they fix that and show the fight.

[Spockydog]

Three episodes in and I have to say, this is some good shit. The Arches storyline was just heartbreaking. 

[Rippounet]

I thought it was a pretty good season overall. Fewer weak moments, and a number of genuinely good ones.
As I hoped at the end of season 1, the quality improved significantly.

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Lanfear, as Cyndane, also dies by mundane means, in the end. So yeah, this enhanced toughness thing is going to mean changes to all kinds of scenes. 

Maybe the Power-wrought hammer can still do the job.

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

No she doesn’t. Lanfear lives. (As confirmed by Sanderson) She is the only forsaken to be free after the series. Moghedien gets taken prisoner by Seanchan and Grandaels brain gets fried. Basically Lanfear staged her death with Perrin there. Which makes sense since that scene as I originally read it made zero sense.

 

So Perrin doesn't kill her? That's news to me.