Israel - Hamas War 2

[Tywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Crixus said:

If you’re trying to imply one side is inherently worse or more evil than the other, that’s naive at best and utterly disingenuous at worst.

One side does explicitly say they want to kill everyone on the other. In response the other side says come fuck around and find out. Do they overreact? All the time, but what's naive is to defend or equivocate for the side that's charter is murder everyone they hate. That's the root problem. 

[Jace, Extat]

Sometimes you just gotta bomb the violence out of some folks... 

It's been the cornerstone of American foreign policy since 1945. 

 

Meanwhile, regarding Israel trumpeting its superior values towards gays and women... 

This truly befuddles me, as a classical liberal intent on the equality and advancement of persons everywhere. I simply, categorically, am unable to side with women stoners and gay killers against a progressive society - can't do it. I served alongside women, identify as one myself, and take seriously the forward march of liberal equality. 

Aligning oneself to people who would never do the same: would probably kill you for the trouble: is probably the most emotionally luxurious passtime I can imagine.

What's happening in Gaza is a horror. What's happening in this thread, spite for a natural ally, is a farce.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[KingAerys_II]

The invasion of Gaza is totally useless, it's only retaliation against a population that has nothing to do with the attacks. 

Hamas is a terrorist organization, it's not Palestine, France suffered same terrorist attacks, French air force never bombed the banlieus to solve the problem. 

The international community and the press are totally biased, Israel committed war crimes, is committing war crimes and the invasion of Gaza is illegal, it's a manifestation of power and they hope to avoid terrorist attacks using fear and raids as punishment 

Edited October 14, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Hamas is a terrorist organization

Hamas administers and controls Gaza since 2007. It is the de facto government of Gaza.

[Bael's Bastard]

52 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

Please continue reading the thread. Daeron admitted he had misread and thought people were talking about Netanyahu.

I see now. Netanyahu is definitely twisting things. The Nazis didn't need Husseini for the idea to wipe out Jews, Hitler was alluding to it pretty much as early as the Nazis began breaking treaties and invading countries, and the Nazis had already murdered masses of Jews before the Wannsee Conference put a number on those that remained.

Having said that, Husseini and his family were highly influential in inciting murder against Jews in Palestine before, during, and after the Holocaust, and even had a role recruiting for a Muslim Waffen SS division. He was absolutely seeking help and alliance with mass murdering Nazis. But yeah, he wasn't the man behind the Nazi murder of masses of Jews.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Varysblackfyre321]

24 minutes ago, Ran said:

The U.S.-Japan Alliance treaty was signed in 1951. Hardly decades.

Ah the occupation didn’t end until 1952 though and I was thinking more cordial, positive relationship, positive view of the populace towards America rather than the formal the dictates of some papers signed at gunpoint.

[Relic]

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

History shows that you can in fact bomb an enemy one day and have them as an ally down the road.

Sure, it happens but history has also shown that this particular conflict will not be solved by bombs. It has existed before Hamas, it alienates Israel from the Middle East, and ALWAYS leads to violence. 

So whatever fantasy some people might hold about "bombing the violence out of people" (yuck by the way, really), they are just strong-man fantasies. The way Israel is responding to the horrors it suffered last weekend is not only going to bite it on the ass, but it will drag its allies into bloodshed as well. The world is watching Gaza right now, and billions of Muslims are taking keen note. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Japan is a very unique country for several reasons. I see no reason to bring them into the mix for this conversation. 

It was just to elucidate the truth that states can become allies even after bombing each other other.

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This needs to be hammered into people's heads. Israel cannot not have peace with Hamas, but peace with Palestinians is a reasonable objective once Hamas is rejected by them.

Can we not pretend the sole reason for hostilities between Palestinians and Israel is Hamas and that Israel’s current ambitions don’t include displacing more diplomatic and peaceful powers of Palestinian.

[Bael's Bastard]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

Sure, it happens but history has also shown that this particular conflict will not be solved by bombs. It has existed before Hamas, it alienates Israel from the Middle East, and ALWAYS leads to violence. 

So whatever fantasy some people might hold about "bombing the violence out of people" (yuck by the way, really), they are just strong-man fantasies. The way Israel is responding to the horrors it suffered last weekend is not only going to bite it on the ass, but it will drag its allies into bloodshed as well. The world is watching Gaza right now, and billions of Muslims are taking keen note. 

It is disingenuous to claim this conflict alienates Israel from the ME when hatred of Jews among Arab and Muslims preceded the modern conflict and Palestinian identity by centuries and over a millennium. The modern Arab and Muslim states in MENA literally attempted to prevent and then destroy Israel's existence, not to mention the ethnic cleansing of the entire millennia old exile communities of Jews in MENA. The central issue of this conflict is and has always been the refusal to accept a sliver of Jewish self-determination in their indigenous homeland and a "the South Will Rise Again" mentality among Palestinians that the West has funded and enabled, including through the UNRWA.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

Sure, it happens but history has also shown that this particular conflict will not be solved by bombs. It has existed before Hamas, it alienates Israel from the Middle East, and ALWAYS leads to violence. 

So whatever fantasy some people might hold about "bombing the violence out of people" (yuck by the way, really), they are just strong-man fantasies. The way Israel is responding to the horrors it suffered last weekend is not only going to bite it on the ass, but it will drag its allies into bloodshed as well. The world is watching Gaza right now, and billions of Muslims are taking keen note. 

Very much agree.
The other thing that I fear will become [even more] problematic in the coming days and weeks is how things are reported, the role media, especially MSM, will play and how much it can have a very negative impact for all those involved. 
For instance:

https://nationalpost.com/news/israel-hamas-day-of-jihad

https://www.wired.com/story/day-of-jihad-disinformation-israel-palestine/

 

[Relic]

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

It is disingenuous to claim this conflict alienates Israel from the ME when hatred of Jews among Arab and Muslim states literally attempted to prevent and then destroy Israel's existence, not to mention the ethnic cleansing of the entire millennia old exile communities of Jews in MENA. The central issue of this conflict is and has always been the refusal to accept a sliver of Jewish self-determination in their indigenous homeland and a "the South Will Rise Again" mentality among Palestinians that the West has funded and enabled, including through the UNRWA.

ok, "further alienates". However, there was some progress made between Israel and some of neighbors in the Middle East, progress that is now being undone 

[Craving Peaches]

Al Jazeera reports aid flights are continuing to arrive in Egypt with nowhere to go because the border is still shut by Israel. And that Lebanese civilians are now being killed by Israeli shelling.

[Varysblackfyre321]

31 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Meanwhile, regarding Israel trumpeting its superior values towards gays and women... 

absolutely no one should care.

31 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

This truly befuddles me, as a classical liberal intent on the equality and advancement of persons everywhere. I simply, categorically, am unable to side with women stoners and gay killers against a progressive society - can't do it.

Yeah I’m not going to support England  if it subjugates Kenya as a colony again because at the moment England is less atrocious on gay and women’s rights

Pink and Rainbow colored colonialism is still colonialism and not functionally different from the good ole civilize the savages with Christianity. Apologies, I beg your forgiveness, truly honestly But it feels like if the whites in Apartheid South Africa became a bit more feminist and pro-lgbt you’d readily side with them.

Edit. Like I feel I should note the materialistically worse off In a society, in a community, tends to be the most regressive in their social dictates and this attitude of “they’re not liberal enough so subjugation and/expulsion of them is more okay” can excuse a lot of ugly shit domestically too.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Jace, Extat]

Just for the record: "Bomb the violence out of them" was a joke, the target being abysmal U.S. policy. 

Germany and Japan were very special cases, that's why the practice has worked like exactly twice in a hundred years.

[kissdbyfire]

41 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This needs to be hammered into people's heads. Israel cannot not have peace with Hamas, but peace with Palestinians is a reasonable objective once Hamas is rejected by them.

I agree. But first we have to find these people who are saying Israel should make peace w/ Hamas, right? 

[Bael's Bastard]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. But first we have to find these people who are saying Israel should make peace w/ Hamas, right? 

You are missing the point that Hamas rules Gaza and uses it to commit terror attacks against Israel, thus making it impossible for Israel to make peace with Gaza while that remains the case. Forget an agreement, Israel can't even consistently have calm with Gaza when Hamas is still in power and constantly firing rockets and building up for attacks.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Zorral]

17 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It is disingenuous to claim this conflict alienates Israel from the ME when hatred of Jews among Arab and Muslims preceded the modern conflict and Palestinian identity by centuries and over a millennium.

That claim reveals an appalling ignorance of history.

[Corvinus85]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very much agree.
The other thing that I fear will become [even more] problematic in the coming days and weeks is how things are reported, the role media, especially MSM, will play and how much it can have a very negative impact for all those involved. 
For instance:

https://nationalpost.com/news/israel-hamas-day-of-jihad

https://www.wired.com/story/day-of-jihad-disinformation-israel-palestine/

 

 

This reminds me that Dune Part 2 should have been released around now but it got delayed months ago because of various reasons. I think that proved a good a decision considering its story and what's going on now. 

[Bael's Bastard]

5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

That claim reveals an appalling ignorance of history.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You are missing the point that Hamas rules Gaza and uses it to commit terror attacks against Israel, thus making it impossible for Israel to make peace with Gaza while that remains the case. Forget an agreement, Israel can't even consistently have calm with Gaza when Hamas is still in power and constantly firing rockets and building up for attacks.

I don’t think I’m missing the point. I wholeheartedly agree that Israel can never make peace or accept Hamas. Hamas must be dealt with, obliterated, wiped out for good. But the post I replied to gave the impression that there were people suggesting some time of peace deal between Hamas and Israel which, again, is a ludicrous and outrageous notion.
If what was meant was that Israel can’t make a peace deal w/ Gaza while Hamas is in control there, then maybe it should have been phrased like that. IMO.
I’m not nitpicking here. But I do think we should try to be careful with how we phrase things, especially in fraught times. We do have people w/ different opinions on some things here, and that’s fine; so far the discussion has been kept civil if a bit heated at times. And although I may have missed a post here and there, the one thing everyone seems to agree on is that Hamas is a nasty terrorist organisation and it has to go.