Israel - Hamas War VI

[fionwe1987]

Kissedbyfire said "attacks on civilians should be condemned no matter who the attacker is".

To which, @Ran you replied "attacks on lawful military targets, OTOH". 

I'd like some clarification. There's a balancing act between the number of civilians estimated to be hurt, and the value of a target in military terms, that needs to be satisfied for something to be determined a "lawful military target".

The civilians remain civilians, even if this determination is made. A civilian death as part of a lawful military target is still to be condemned, no? Or are we saying that loss of life is of diminished importance because the person had the luck of being near a legitimate military target? 

You seem to have gone past a legal defense of Israeli action to saying we don't need to condemn civilian death if it is legal. 

Not sure if you meant to do that, but that's what you've said. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Okay, but Hamas isn't the Nazis. 

No, they think the Nazis didn't go far enough. 

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ETA: Also like, once the Nazis where beaten Billions of dollars were poured into rebuilding Germany and making sure it could become a successful independent state once again, which seems pretty peace and reconciliation to me, but idk.

Yeah, because the German people took ownership for what the Nazi party did. I doubt the Allies would have rebuilt Germany if they kept fighting. 

45 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Pretty laughable that the person who is defending ethnic cleansing is accusing others of being Nazis. The fascist, genocidal Israeli state has more in common with Nazi Germany than Hamas does. You're neck deep in Hasbara propaganda, and it's pretty fucking pathetic.

No, you are. Again, Hamas wants every Jew dead. Israel has never said they want to kill every Palestinian in anyway that's remotely comparable. But you still feel the need to say up is down and black is white. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Bael's Bastard]

39 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Pretty laughable that the person who is defending ethnic cleansing is accusing others of being Nazis. The fascist, genocidal Israeli state has more in common with Nazi Germany than Hamas does. You're neck deep in Hasbara propaganda, and it's pretty fucking pathetic.

Except for all the Nazis that were left in positions of power in West Germany. Of course, I guess if you consider the formation of West Germany a good thing, it kind of undermines the idea that there is no way to proceed with Hamas figures in a governing capacity as part of a peace process.

You are engaging in literal antisemitic Holocaust inversion.

[TrueMetis]

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, they think the Nazis didn't go far enough. 

Can you go farther than extermination?

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Yeah, because the German people took ownership for what the Nazi party did. I doubt the Allies would have rebuilt Germany if they kept fighting.

Since one of the biggest reasons Germany was rebuilt was to help fight the USSR, you're doubts are likely wrong. But like, yeah they did. At gunpoint. If you don't think the same couldn't be done in Gaza, then I don't know what to say because like, there's only a handful of reasons one could think that and none of them are good.

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No, you are. Again, Hamas wants every Jew dead. Israeli has never said they want to kill every Palestinian in anyway that's remotely comparable. But you still feel the need to say up is down and black is white. 

PM Netanyahu has invoked the Palestinians as being like the Amalekites, for those who don't know according to scripture god order the Amalekites wiped our, man, woman, and child.

17 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You are engaging in literal antisemitic Holocaust inversion.

What about the holocaust survivor's comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, are they engaging antisemitic Holocaust inversion?

Edited October 30, 2023 by TrueMetis

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Can you go farther than extermination?

Succeeding at it?
 

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Since one of the biggest reasons Germany was rebuilt was to help fight the USSR, you're doubts are likely wrong. But like, yeah they did. At gunpoint. If you don't think the same couldn't be done in Gaza, then I don't know what to say because like, there's only a handful of reasons one could think that and none of them are good.

The US absolutely would not have helped rebuild Germany if they didn't surrender and kept fighting. Idk what you're smoking, but pass it this way. 

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PM Netanyahu has invoked the Palestinians as being like the Amalekites, for those who don't know according to scripture god order the Amalekites wiped our, man, woman, and child.

I'm not defending anything he says, but to compare a recent comment to decades worth of calling for all Jews to die is not exactly the same. 

[Bael's Bastard]

14 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

What about the holocaust survivor's comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, are they engaging antisemitic Holocaust inversion?

Absolutely, and tokenizing a fringe of Holocaust survivors to justify comparing Jews to Nazis is fucking despicable.

[TrueMetis]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The US absolutely would not have helped rebuild Germany if they didn't surrender and kept fighting. Idk what you're smoking, but pass it this way.

Okay, to be clear I was focusing on your "took ownership of what Nazis party did" part, kind of mentally glossed over that the fighting meant literally, because of course you're not going to rebuild when someone is actively fighting. Regardless, and to make my point clear. Germany wasn't rebuilt because the German's owned up to what the Nazis party did, making the German's own up to what the Nazis party did was part of rebuilding. To variable success and distinct differences between East and West Germany.

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I'm not defending anything he says, but to compare a recent comment to decades worth of calling for all Jews to die is not exactly the same. 

You choose very odd areas to decide nuance is important. Though I guess you're consistent in not taking a given groups actually capability to carry out the threat into consideration. So Hamas and the Nazis are comparable because they have the same goal, even though Hamas has no actual hope of carrying that goal out and a fraction of a fraction of the powers, Israel however isn't like that because it's calls for genocide are "recent" (lolno) even though it absolutely has the power to carry out its threats (and has been, Israel has had a campaign of ethnic cleansing going on for decades, kind of irrelevant to me if they're not explicitly talking about the thing they're doing)

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

Absolutely, and tokenizing a fringe of Holocaust survivors to justify comparing Jews to Nazis is fucking despicable.

Right, so you're opinion is worthless, noted.

Edited October 30, 2023 by TrueMetis

[GrimTuesday]

52 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, you are. Again, Hamas wants every Jew dead. Israeli has never said they want to kill every Palestinian in anyway that's remotely comparable. But you still feel the need to say up is down and black is white. 

Israeli leaders have, since the beginning advocated for the forced removal of Palestinians, the entire nation was founded on it. in the 75 years since then, those polices have continued unabated. That is why Hamas says what it does. Palestinians aren't born hating Israel, it is the result of systemic violence that empowers the most extreme right wing  elements and has been supported and enabled by Israel to undermine the secular left wing Palestinians that were harder to demonize.

 

39 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You are engaging in literal antisemitic Holocaust inversion.

I don't give a shit if you or the ADL or some other Israeli propaganda cutout consider it antisemitic, Israel is committing if not genocide, then certainty ethnic cleansing and that is unacceptable. Keep defending your apartheid state though, I'm sure dismissing criticism of Israel as simply being antisemitic allows you to ignore the crimes being committed against a people that have been declared as subhuman by the state of Israel.

Edited October 30, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

Hamas cannot be defeated with bombs, the only option is peace and reconciliation.

How does Israel go about this exactly?  By agreeing to stop existing?

[fionwe1987]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

How does Israel go about this exactly?  By agreeing to stop existing?

What? No. How is the end of Israel and the displacement of its citizens "peace"? I don't even understand how anyone would think this. Any peace of course would recognize Israel. Anything else is a fantasy, especially given the geological realities.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said:

What? No. How is the end of Israel and the displacement of its citizens "peace"? I don't even understand how anyone would think this. Any peace of course would recognize Israel. Anything else is a fantasy, especially given the geological realities.

So you think Hamas is motivated to declare peace and recognize and respect Israel’s existence?  Because that’s currently the group that you would have to negotiate a peace with.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

39 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Okay, to be clear I was focusing on your "took ownership of what Nazis party did" part, kind of mentally glossed over that the fighting meant literally, because of course you're not going to rebuild when someone is actively fighting. Regardless, and to make my point clear. Germany wasn't rebuilt because the German's owned up to what the Nazis party did, making the German's own up to what the Nazis party did was part of rebuilding. To variable success and distinct differences between East and West Germany.

I was just making the point that no country would ever lend it's own resources to a group that actively said they want them dead. 

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You choose very odd areas to decide nuance is important. Though I guess you're consistent in not taking a given groups actually capability to carry out the threat into consideration. So Hamas and the Nazis are comparable because they have the same goal, even though Hamas has no actual hope of carrying that goal out and a fraction of a fraction of the powers, Israel however isn't like that because it's calls for genocide are "recent" (lolno) even though it absolutely has the power to carry out its threats (and has been, Israel has had a campaign of ethnic cleansing going on for decades, kind of irrelevant to me if they're not explicitly talking about the thing they're doing)

I care about a group's goals as much as their capabilities and that's been one of the truly strange things about these threads. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and kill every Jew, but they can't. Israel doesn't make the same claims about Palestinians, but could do it in a few hours. And yet somehow they're the ones that want to commit a genocide? That makes no sense.

38 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

That is why Hamas says what it does.

Are you just pro Hamas at this point? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

What? No. How is the end of Israel and the displacement of its citizens "peace"? I don't even understand how anyone would think this. Any peace of course would recognize Israel. Anything else is a fantasy, especially given the geological realities.

The end of Israel is the goal, have you not been paying attention? Or does "from the river to the sea" just go in one ear and out the other for you? That means the destruction of Israel as we know it today. 

[GrimTuesday]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Are you just pro Hamas at this point? 

The only way you could read everything I've said in the course of this discussion over the last three weeks and come to that conclusion is if you are either acting in bad faith, or you're just so indoctrinated by Israeli propaganda, you've completely lost the plot.

Explaining something is not the same as endorsing it. But by all means, keep defending your beloved apartheid state. History will remember people like you the same as those who supported South Africa.

[Bael's Bastard]

23 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

What? No. How is the end of Israel and the displacement of its citizens "peace"? I don't even understand how anyone would think this. Any peace of course would recognize Israel. Anything else is a fantasy, especially given the geological realities.

Israel has treaties with countries that have killed far more Jews than Hamas. There is no reason it could not make peace with a Palestinian government, even with someone like Abbas, whose Holocaust revisionism/denial continues to this day. But that government could never be Hamas so long as it is relentlessly dedicated to genocide of Jews and rejection of a Jewish state in any part of the lands it claims, which it has never ceased to be. As much of a selfish piece of shit as Netanyahu is, all accounts indicate he agreed that negotiations would be based on 67 borders with mutually agreed swaps (something he had opposed for decades) before delays in releasing Palestinians with life sentences for planning and committing terror attacks led to Abbas forming a unity government with Hamas in 2014.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

The only way you could read everything I've said in the course of this discussion over the last three weeks and come to that conclusion is if you are either acting in bad faith, or you're just so indoctrinated by Israeli propaganda, you've completely lost the plot.

Explaining something is not the same as endorsing it. But by all means, keep defending your beloved apartheid state. History will remember people like you the same as those who supported South Africa.

Idk if you're reading what you're writing then...

You said Israel needs to make peace with Hamas. Pretty weird to say a country should make peace with a group who openly says they want to destroy them.

You explained why a terrorist group felt it needed to slaughter and kidnap innocent civilians. Pretty weird.

You've been openly using their talking points. Pretty weird. 

And that's just in the last few hours. 

[TrueMetis]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I was just making the point that no country would ever lend it's own resources to a group that actively said they want them dead. 

I care about a group's goals as much as their capabilities and that's been one of the truly strange things about these threads. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and kill every Jew, but they can't. Israel doesn't make the same claims about Palestinians, but could do it in a few hours. And yet somehow they're the ones that want to commit a genocide? That makes no sense.

IDK man, maybe we could look at their actions instead of just what they're saying? Or do you think North Korea is democratic and a republic? Like yes, they are also trying to commit genocide, the speed at which they are doing so is irrelevant. I'm Canadian, you're American, we both know that a country can be slowly committing genocide all the while pretending they're not and indeed are claiming thy are trying to help the people they are slowly wiping out.

[Bael's Bastard]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk if you're reading what you're writing then...

You said Israel needs to make peace with Hamas. Pretty weird to say a country should make peace with a group who openly says they want to destroy them.

You explained why a terrorist group felt it needed to slaughter and kidnap innocent civilians. Pretty weird.

You've been openly using their talking points. Pretty weird. 

And that's just in the last few hours. 

I don't know about you, but I am and come from a family that pushed for a Palestinian state during a decade where family and friends were being blown to pieces on buses and in restaurants believing that Arafat would ultimately make peace. The Jews in this thread despise Netanyahu, reject the settlements amd violent Hilltop Youth, and push for a Palestinian state, only to be smeared as hawks who support apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide by people comparing Israel to the fucking Nazis. We and our families and friends have paid the price to support two states and continue to do so believing it is the only answer. More than can be said for people parroting Hamas and engaging in Holocaust inversion.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Rippounet]

I think something that everyone doesn't acknowledge is that the casualty rate is, in fact, genocidal. We're certainly over 2,000 deaths a week (possibly closer to 2,500), and while I don't think the IDF maintains 50/hour for very long, that would be enough to wipe our the entire population of Gaza in about 5 years.
And we are being told that this may indeed last years.
This raises the question of what is supposed to be an acceptable casualty rate for this operation, because it can't possibly be the one we are seeing so far. With several years at the current intensity, even allowing for regular pauses for humanitarian reasons, we're talking about killing and maiming a substantial proportion of the population.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Rippounet

[GrimTuesday]

27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk if you're reading what you're writing then...

Frankly I'm disinclined to accept your interpretation of my statements.

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You said Israel needs to make peace with Hamas. Pretty weird to say a country should make peace with a group who openly says they want to destroy them.

Iran regularly calls for death to America, do you think I give a shit about that? Power is what matters, it is the only thing that matters, and only one side of this actually has the power to achieve it's goals.

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You explained why a terrorist group felt it needed to slaughter and kidnap innocent civilians. Pretty weird.

Yes, I did explain that, I did not endorse them. Refusing to understand why things are happening is a key method of dehumanization of an enemy, you don't want to see them as humans because then you would have to acknowledge that what has happened to the Palestinians is criminal and unconscionable.

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You've been openly using their talking points. Pretty weird. 

Hamas uses the the language of liberation and use facts to justify their actions. Just because we use the same language and cite the same events, it does not mean that we agree upon what actions must be taken to address the situation in Israel.

9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't know about you, but I am and come from a family that pushed for a Palestinian state during a decade where family and friends were being blown to pieces on buses and in restaurants believing that Arafat would ultimately make peace. The Jews in this thread despise Netanyahu, reject the settlements amd violent Hilltop Youth, and push for a Palestinian state, only to be smeared as hawks who support apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide by people comparing Israel to the fucking Nazis. We and our families and friends have paid the price to support two states and continue to do so believing it is the only answer. More than can be said for people parroting Hamas and engaging in Holocaust inversion.

If you don't want people to accuse you of supporting ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide maybe don't do that. Defending the Zionist project is to defend those actions.

Also you're delusion if you think a two state solution is still possible. Israel has made sure that it is impossible to disentangle Israel from a theoretical Palestinian state, and have actively been undermining groups that are more amiable to peace, this has been state policy for decades. The only viable solution at this point is a single state where all people are afforded the same rights and given a right to return. Sorry if that doesn't allow for an ethnostate, but thems the breaks.