kissdbyfire Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) Netanyahu is so full of shit. He is doing fuck all to save the hostages. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-airstrikes-gaza-ground-operation-rcna122596 Netanyahu warns of a long and difficult fight Natalie Kainz Updating Israelis on the expanded ground invasion phase of the conflict with Hamas, Netanyahu warned that a long and difficult war awaits. “It will be long and difficult,” he said. “We are ready.” The goal of the conflict is straightforward — to bring home hostages and defeat Hamas, but "this mission is not a simple or easy one," he said, adding that he had met with loved ones' relatives earlier in the day. Edited October 29, 2023 by kissdbyfire Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) Yeah, freeing a bunch of violent criminals and jihadists immediately into the West Bank and Gaza to satisfy the demands of terrorists is very much the pro-life, non-ridiculous choice. 46 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: He is doing fuck all to save the hostages. So the leaflets offering rewards for information, the ground raids to try to find them, the death of an IDF soldier on one of those said ground raids -- all "nothing". Israel is, in fact, capable of doing all sorts of things at the same time, like prosecuting a war following the worst terrorist attack since 9/11, and negotiating for the return of the hostages, and using intelligence services and military raids to try and get them. Edited October 29, 2023 by Ran Relic and Bael's Bastard 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 46 minutes ago, Rippounet said: Nah. Choosing whether your priority is life(trying to rescue hostages) or death (killing others in retaliation) is easy. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous. If the one and only thing on the other side was retaliation, then yes, the choice would be easy. However, in reality, this is a variant of the trolley problem: one can let the trolley roll (leave the hostages where they are) or one can redirect it onto another set of people (release thousands of terrorists who will then almost surely go on to kill more people and take more hostages). There is no answer that everyone agrees to even to the original trolley problem, never mind the variant where you don't know how much harm acting causes. JoannaL, Jace, Extat, Fragile Bird and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 53 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: He is doing fuck all to save the hostages. There are hostage negotiations going on in Qatar. They're not very public so it's not clear how they're going, but they exist. 55 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Netanyahu warned that a long and difficult war awaits. That's probably what he is hoping for since regardless of how the war goes, the time that it lasts is also the time that he stays in power. Even if Israel succeeds in all of its objectives from this point on, Netanyahu's political career is finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 In other news, a nascent pogrom brewing in the Russian republic of Dagestan, of all places, as a mob of what looks like hundreds of young men storms the airport to check the passports of people arriving on a flight from Tel Aviv to identify any Israelis or Jews, and then they end up going room by room at at least one hotel for the same reason. Police apparently just stood by. Jeebus. Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 10 minutes ago, Ran said: So the leaflets offering rewards for information, the ground raids to try to find them, the death of an IDF soldier on one of those said ground raids -- all "nothing". "Leaflets offering rewards for information" being passed around in a war zone w/ non-stop bombings, by the government who are doing the bombing that don't trust you at all and that you don't trust at all, those leaflets? It is nothing but window dressing. "Look, see, we are trying so hard to get your loved ones back!". You say the ground raids are happening to try to find them. Really? Again, in a nasty war zone, etc etc. I say the main objective of these raids is to find and kill terrorists. Maybe they can save some (being optimistic here) if they happen to find a hostage - who will be guarded and isn't killed as soon as the terrorists guarding them see the ground forces. And that's not only a huge maybe but, again, not the main objective of the ground invasion IMO. I am sorry for the IDF soldier who died. I am sorry for all the lives lost b/c we are such a stupid and destructive species. 10 minutes ago, Ran said: Israel is, in fact, capable of doing all sorts of things at the same time, like prosecuting a war following the worst terrorist attack since 9/11, and negotiating for the return of the hostages, and using intelligence services and military raids to try and get them. They certainly are extremely capable of doing many things. Still, it doesn't seem like saying the hostages is the Israeli government's priority, and imo it should be. Not only my opinion btw, but that of the families of the hostages as well. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/28/is-there-a-plan-families-of-israeli-hostages-demand-answers-from-netanyahu Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Just now, kissdbyfire said: It is nothing but window dressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Insane stuff. Craving Peaches, Luzifer's right hand, kissdbyfire and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 13 minutes ago, Altherion said: There are hostage negotiations going on in Qatar. They're not very public so it's not clear how they're going, but they exist. I know. Still. The offer of an all for all swap is on the table. And it's not like they have to agree to end the war after the swap. So go ahead, save the hostages and resume your war. 13 minutes ago, Altherion said: That's probably what he is hoping for since regardless of how the war goes, the time that it lasts is also the time that he stays in power. Even if Israel succeeds in all of its objectives from this point on, Netanyahu's political career is finished. The one silver lining in this horrible mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: The one silver lining in this horrible mess. My fear is he’ll just be replaced with someone as genocidal but more savvy and less corrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 7 minutes ago, Ran said: Do you think Netanyahu would be so distraught at an Israeli soldier dying or two? Why do you think he’s been reluctant to meeting and communicating with the families of the hostages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) Quote “If we don’t treat Gaza as an enemy, we will never get out of the rounds and each time it is going to get worse to the point that we reached the acute situation of [October 7] morning. The state of Israel needs to understand and accept that there are no innocents in Gaza.” https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/28/israel-hamas-war-live-invasion-under-way-as-gaza-cut-off-from-the-world Just in case people think it is Al Jazeera bias: https://www.maariv.co.il/news/military/Article-1048360 (is in Hebrew). Edited October 29, 2023 by Craving Peaches kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 29 minutes ago, Ran said: In other news, a nascent pogrom brewing in the Russian republic of Dagestan, of all places, as a mob of what looks like hundreds of young men storms the airport to check the passports of people arriving on a flight from Tel Aviv to identify any Israelis or Jews, and then they end up going room by room at at least one hotel for the same reason. Police apparently just stood by. Jeebus. Right? That's another hideous human being that has to go. Wasn't one of his bollocks reasons to invade Ukraine that he wanted to de-nazify it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Russian Aviation authorities say the mob was removed, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 43 minutes ago, Altherion said: If the one and only thing on the other side was retaliation, then yes, the choice would be easy. However, in reality, this is a variant of the trolley problem: one can let the trolley roll (leave the hostages where they are) or one can redirect it onto another set of people (release thousands of terrorists who will then almost surely go on to kill more people and take more hostages). The fallacy of the hawks in these threads is always the same: presenting the current military operation as necessary. Except that's not truly in dispute. Almost everyone has aknowledged that some kind of military operation is probably necessary. What is in dispute are the methods and timing. Following October 7th, Gaza is in lockdown. Neutralizing rocket launches is the only urgent military matter. Apart from that, Hamas fighters in Gaza aren't going anywhere. It is, and always was, possible to explore ways to get the hostages back. Israel could have have chosen a restrained response, taken some time to mourn the victims, and taken the time to come up with an actual strategy. Why the urgency? Because the specific methods curently used could only be accepted by the international community in the immediate wake of the attacks. Or, to put it in other words, if Israel had taken its time to tackle Hamas, it wouldn't have had as much liberty to commit war crimes. Whereas by responding immediately, it gets a pass for retaliating strongly. Lots of people are willing to offer tons of excuses for Israeli actions. So it's not a trolley problem. That's the fallacy. The reality is that there always was, and still is, plenty of alternatives to what Israel is doing right now - i.e. deliberately killing thousands of Palestinian civilians. This is the only solution if you don't know how to look beyond the primitive urge to fight back after an attack. JGP, TrueMetis and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 If this were a real trolley problem, you would not always land on the same solution. Yet the hawks always do, regardless of the specific terrorist attack, or the country so attacked. Something must be done. It must be done to prove that you're not a pushover. That such past actions have proved no such thing, and haven't acted as any kind of deterrent, is to be ignored. Perpetuate the cycle of violence. Maintain the image of toughness. Solve nothing. Rinse. Repeat. That's the realpolitik of today. Bunch of cowards. JGP, Craving Peaches, Rippounet and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Rippounet said: So it's not a trolley problem. That's the fallacy. It’s more like a person moving a trolley he knows will squish hundreds of children , but does so because a murderer is also on the track and he’s trying to get re elected by people who want to squish the murderer. Edited October 29, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) Even Biden is moderating from his initial reaction speeches, as the world expresses its disgust at the appalling, useless actions of inhumanity to civilians of bibi etc. A war crime is never redeemed or wiped out by another war crime, something men never seem to learn. I sure am seeing women in multiples of other nations saying this, as well as Israeli women, US women and Arabic women. More and more women wonder why the hell men are allowed to run shit. I've neve quite seen this expressed (at least so much in public) before, in previous international catastrophes. Again, this evening, its been every evening, a great big protest against what bibi&etc. are doing in Gaza and demanding a cease fire. Edited October 29, 2023 by Zorral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Zorral said: Again, this evening, its been every evening, a great big protest against what bibi&etc. are doing in Gaza and demanding a cease fire. And in Gaza there's a man giving out candy to celebrate the "martyrdom" of his wife and all but one of their children, and promising that he and the people of Gaza are all ready to die in the holy fight to wipe the Jews from Palestine. I really don't see the point of wringing our hands over the opinions of random groups of individuals, in other words. Hard enough to take some of the opinions on this forum seriously. High Sparrow Howland Reed? Meh. 1 hour ago, Rippounet said: It is, and always was, possible to explore ways to get the hostages back. They are exploring them. But they're not going to wait a decade. There are people in Hamas hands who have been there for about that long, even now. You know, I have no clear idea of what your view of the future of Hamas as ruler of Gaza is, in your mind. What is your suggestion for how they should be dealt with, and what sort of timeline do you think is appropriate? Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding your perspective. Edited October 29, 2023 by Ran Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 14 minutes ago, Ran said: You know, I have no clear idea of what your view of the future of Hamas as ruler of Gaza is, in your mind. Does removing Hamas justify any and all military expenditures by Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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