What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?

[the trees have eyes]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So I do think child Tywin would have behaved similarly, perhaps worse and maybe less sniffling but Joff seems to have held himself together in typical Lannister fashion.

A Lannister always pays his debts, sure.  But would he have got himself in that position?  I sincerely doubt young Tywin would have got sloppy drunk while on a ride with his fiancee or that, if Arya had struck him with a stick, he would completely have lost his sh*t and started swinging a sword at her. 

Acts of enormity tend to come from difficult situations springing from earlier terrible decision-making.  So if you don't bang your sister in a Lord Paramount's castle and get caught committing high treason by their seven year old son you don't need to throw him out the window and if you don't get drunk and pick on someone you don't have to demand the murder or maiming of two children when your showboating goes wrong.  Tywin is ruthless but not reckless, calculating not impulsive.  In other words I can't see young Tywin pushing Melara Hetherspoon down a well either.

Joffrey has an extra level of entitlement as royalty, a level of irresponsibility and insulation from accountability due to maternal indulgence and his own personality issues (a certain kitchen cat comes to mind).

I'm close to it being a consequence of inbreeding (after all Tywin married his cousin and their union produced the twincest) with Joffrey getting Jaime and Cersei's self-centredness and recklessness but then Tommen and Myrcella seem pretty normal kids. Maybe GRRM wants us to see that all genetics (and personalities) are coin flips.

Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey all seem to have a reckless arrogance that Tywin, Kevan, Genna and Tyrion don't.  The older Lannisters had to endure a time when their house was weak and Tyrion has always been an outsider so they seem to have less arrogance and entitlement than Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey who have always believed that the world would bend to their wishes.

 

 

[Dofs]

By the way, I'll do the original purpose of the thread and rank the characters, starting from the worst:

1) Cersei

2) Joffrey

3) Tywin

4) Tyrion

5) Jaime

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dofs

[Hugorfonics]

59 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin is obsessed with looking strong and is extremely afraid of being laughed at and belittled. You can call it almost a phobia on the point of paranoia, he literally never smiles because of that.

These personal fears affect a lot what he does and how he does it. It essentially shapes his own personal rules. Joffrey is simply not that kind of a person.

Not sure there even is any Lannister like that at all, to be honest. Tywin is a very special case.

I disagree, I think thats a strong Lannister trait. 

Quote

Why couldn't you just come joust with us, the way the king wanted? You wouldn't have gotten hurt. What would that have cost m'lord, to climb up on our dog and ride a tilt to please the boy? It was just a bit of fun. They would have laughed at you, that's all."

"They would have laughed at me," said Tyrion.

Joff is a great example too, 

Quote

"Joffrey," she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair. His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt.

"Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

The twins a little less so, and Tyrion has his reasons, I suppose Joff did as well but I dont think Tywin was special in that regard, even if he went into overderive with his permanent frown.

 

 

33 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

A Lannister always pays his debts, sure.  But would he have got himself in that position?  I sincerely doubt young Tywin would have got sloppy drunk while on a ride with his fiancee or that, if Arya had struck him with a stick, he would completely have lost his sh*t and started swinging a sword at her. 

Yea, why not? He is a 13 year old drunk, that invites sloppy. Tywin I think would have taken offense from Arya and Mycha and would also have antagonized the situation/ threaten to murder Mycha, where he might not have tried to start swinging his sword at Arya he certanily would remember that she frustrated and embarrassed him.
Tywin isnt Jaime like, true. But I think hes still impulsive and such.

37 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tywin is ruthless but not reckless, calculating not impulsive.

He immediately goes to war following Tyrion's arrest which is nothing but reckless and impulsive. He attacks Roose allowing Robb to breeze right past him to RR, and is quick to accept Frey help despite the stigma it will inevitably bring. 
There are times like when he doesnt answer Baolns call or Aemons but that I think was still a decision he made, impulsively not moving, if that makes sense?

41 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Joffrey has an extra level of entitlement as royalty, a level of irresponsibility and insulation from accountability due to maternal indulgence and his own personality issues (a certain kitchen cat comes to mind).

I'm close to it being a consequence of inbreeding (after all Tywin married his cousin and their union produced the twincest) with Joffrey getting Jaime and Cersei's self-centredness and recklessness but then Tommen and Myrcella seem pretty normal kids. Maybe GRRM wants us to see that all genetics (and personalities) are coin flips.

I think the first part is correct, not sure about the second. After all, that's like half the characters.

 

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey all seem to have a reckless arrogance that Tywin, Kevan, Genna and Tyrion don't.  The older Lannisters had to endure a time when their house was weak and Tyrion has always been an outsider so they seem to have less arrogance and entitlement than Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey who have always believed that the world would bend to their wishes.

Genna is extremely paranoid (because she can see) and wrote down all her complaints anxious to complain to the first person whos not her husband, while Keavan from his 5 minutes of rule used it to send men to die by Griff by sending such a small force. Im not sure either of these guys are the best examples.
Tyrion absolutely cant keep his mouth shut and is one of the most impulsive characters I think in the series. Usually for jokes or silly escapades like pissing off the "edge of the world" but its also often quick decisions like to bring Tyrell into an alliance or send Young Griff across the map

[Dofs]

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The twins a little less so, and Tyrion has his reasons, I suppose Joff did as well but I dont think Tywin was special in that regard, even if he went into overderive with his permanent frown.

I mean, being laughed at and humiliated is not fun for anyone, that's normal, but only Tywin flat out adjusts his behaviour constantly to make sure no one could laugh at him. No other Lannister does this. That's what I meant.

[Hugorfonics]

26 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I mean, being laughed at and humiliated is not fun for anyone, that's normal, but only Tywin flat out adjusts his behaviour constantly to make sure no one could laugh at him. No other Lannister does this. That's what I meant.

Very Victarion/Stannis like behavior, but while they remain hysterical Tywin is too afraid to make a joke to save his life

[Dofs]

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Very Victarion/Stannis like behavior, but while they remain hysterical Tywin is too afraid to make a joke to save his life

Victarion is not hysterical on purpose though, and his distrust of laughter is, honestly, pretty legitimate, unlike with Tywin, heh.

Tywin being afraid to make a joke especially shows how much of an atypical Lannister he is. Lannisters are literally the biggest jokesters of the series, they in general can't help themselves but crack a joke or be snarky in general. Tywin is literally the opposite of his House's main trait.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dofs

[Hugorfonics]

40 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Victarion is not hysterical on purpose though, and his distrust of laughter is, honestly, pretty legitimate, unlike with Tywin, heh.

Is Stannis'? Jon wonders about that too. (I say yes)
Vics got some great lines tho. This one being a particular favorite interaction

Quote

Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

"There is the window. Leap." Victarion had no patience for this.

Imo this has to be intentionally funny. 
Even a dimwit like Vik understands the difference between laughing with and at. Tywin though is even more dimwitted then that.

44 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin being afraid to make a joke especially shows how much of an atypical Lannister he is. Lannisters are literally the biggest jokesters of the series, they in general can't help themselves but crack a joke or be snarky in general. Tywin is literally the opposite of his House's main trait.

Tommen and Keaven arent funny either tho. Some people just dont have a sense of humor. Although Tywin recognizes humor, like he understands Tyrion is making jokes he just doesnt smile at them.
And I think "hear me roar" is the main trait of Lannister. Which is really just bluffing.

[Dofs]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Even a dimwit like Vik understands the difference between laughing with and at.

Victarion literally says that he doesn't understand the difference. This is why he distrusts laughter in the first place.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Is Stannis'? Jon wonders about that too. (I say yes)

I honestly don't remember him distrusting laughter akin to Vik or Tywin in the first place.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tommen and Keaven arent funny either tho.

Lannisters that love to joke and be snarky are Tyrion, Jaime, Daven, Genna, Cersei, Joffrey, Gerion, Tytos even Myrcella showcased this a bit. The two funniest POVs are Tyrion and Jaime and Cersei can compete for the third spot. Humor is definitely a huge trend in the family, and who knows how Tommen and Kevan would be if we saw more of them. 

Tywin, again, is a very atypical Lannister.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And I think "hear me roar" is the main trait of Lannister. Which is really just bluffing.

Not sure I understand what you mean exactly.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dofs

[Hugorfonics]

31 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Victarion literally says the he doesn't understand the difference. This is why he distrusts laughter in the first place.

I honestly don't remember him distrusting laughter akin to Vik or Tywin in the first place.

Lol that's true.

Yea for sure, it's a little different 

Quote

His mouth would have given despair to even the drollest of fools; it was a mouth made for frowns and scowls and sharply worded commands, all thin pale lips and clenched muscles, a mouth that had forgotten how to smile and had never known how to laugh. Sometimes when the world grew very still and silent of a night, Maester Cressen fancied he could hear Lord Stannis grinding his teeth half a castle away.

But this I don't think is a really accurate description.

40 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Lannisters that love to joke and be snarky are Tyrion, Jaime, Daven, Genna, Cersei, Joffrey, Gerion, Tytos even Myrcella showcased this a bit. The two funniest POVs are Tyrion and Jaime and Cersei can compete for the third spot. Humor is definitely a huge trend in the family, and who knows how Tommen and Kevan would be if we saw more of them. 

We see plenty of them, they're not funny. They don't even try really. For example we see aunt Genna for a second and she out wits the kingslayer.

46 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin, again, is a very atypical Lannister.

Not sure I understand what you mean exactly.

Nah they're all a bunch of mini Tywins, with his children being the most Tywinish.

Hear me roar and lesser beasts fall into line, Tywin does do that for sure, like by declaring war expecting Robb to play the kid. But Tyrion is very a hear my roar kinda fella, because of daddy. 

Quote

The boys are safe," he promised her wearily. "Gods be good, Cersei, they're my own blood! What sort of man do you take me for?"

"A small and twisted one."

Tyrion stared at the dregs on the bottom of his wine cup. What would Jaime do in my place? Kill the bitch, most likely, and worry about the consequences afterward. But Tyrion did not have a golden sword, nor the skill to wield one. He loved his brother's reckless wrath, but it was their lord father he must try and emulate. Stone, I must be stone, I must be Casterly Rock, hard and unmovable.

Cersei too is always thinking what would daddy do, even Jaime who's supposedly more rash then bluffs quickly changes when he like jumps into the bear pit armed only with the belief that Karstark soldiers will do what he wants

[Dofs]

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But this I don't think is a really accurate description.

Stannis can still sometimes make great burns and look as dour as one can possibly look at the same time.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We see plenty of them, they're not funny. They don't even try really. 

Tommen is, like, seven and then eight. He also enjoys laughing, is sometimes hilarious in an adorable way. He has potential, he just needs to spend more time with Jaime or live in Casterly Rock. Kevan was pretty damn savage with Cersei. Of course though, given how much time he spent with Tywin the mood killer, it definitely would have left a mark at him.

But the point is that cracking jokes is a stereotypical Lannister trait overall. Of course you will always have exceptions. Tywin is not suddenly not a Lannister because he hates jokes, and having one or two more members who aren't typically snarky doesn't invalidate the fact that a huge amount of them are.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

For example we see aunt Genna for a second and she out wits the kingslayer.

Don't think there was a battle of wits between them.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah they're all a bunch of mini Tywins, with his children being the most Tywinish.

Nah, they aren't like Tywin at all, neither are his children. This common idea that Tyrion is Tywin's copy is honestly overrated both in universe and outside amongst the readers. Sure, he shares some traits with Tywin, well, he also shares the fact that he has to breath like Tywin does, doesn't mean they so similar.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cersei too is always thinking what would daddy do

The Lannister siblings thinking what their dad would do doesn't make them like their dads. If I think what would Obama do, I will not become Obama.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

even Jaime who's supposedly more rash then bluffs quickly changes when he like jumps into the bear pit armed only with the belief that Karstark soldiers will do what he wants

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Jaime jumping to a bear pit wasn't a bluff. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Dofs

[the trees have eyes]

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, why not? He is a 13 year old drunk, that invites sloppy. Tywin I think would have taken offense from Arya and Mycha and would also have antagonized the situation/ threaten to murder Mycha, where he might not have tried to start swinging his sword at Arya he certanily would remember that she frustrated and embarrassed him.
Tywin isnt Jaime like, true. But I think hes still impulsive and such.

No, Joffrey is drunk.  Tywin is never drunk in story.  Drunken showboating is entirely out of character for Tywin but not for Joffrey (also drunk at his wedding and determined to humiliate Tyrion).  Saying you can imagine a sloppy drunk 13 year old Tywin acting like Joffrey did is as pure a piece of invention as to say 13 year old Ned or Stannis would have got sloppy drunk and acted the same.  Why not indeed...  None of those characters would have got themselves into that situation.  Tywin is one of the most calculating and considered characters in story, not impulsive at all.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He immediately goes to war following Tyrion's arrest which is nothing but reckless and impulsive.

It's not impulsive or reckless.  It's a considered response that punishes a slight to House Lannister by punishing House Tully (Catelyn being the one to kidnap Tyrion) and attempting to draw Ned out of KL to capture him and trade him for Tyrion.  Private wars or armed conflicts between rival nobles were a feature of medieval feudal kingdoms and breaking the king's peace only earned a rap on the knuckles provided no treason was involved.  Remember that after Ramsay kidnapped, married and starved Lady Hornwood Roose Bolton claimed the Hornwood lands and we had Manderly knights and Bolton armsmen fighting each other over who would claim the Hornwood inheritance.  Ser Rodrik's response is to try and restore the peace and let Robb sort it out.  That's the calculation Tywin makes.

Now Jaime waylaying Ned in the streets of KL, butchering his men and then having to flee is entirely impulsive and reckless.  Tywin is ruthless and his response is extreme but it is carefully calculated.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He attacks Roose allowing Robb to breeze right past him to RR,

Please be serious.  Jaime is investing Riverrun and Tywin is blockading the King's Road.  The only place for Robb to cross the Greenfork is The Twins and they are impregnable with Walder Frey expected to sit on the sidelines as he did during the Robellion.  Tywin is outmanoeuvred by the Stark-Frey marriage pact but it is hardly because he is reckless and impulsive.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

and is quick to accept Frey help despite the stigma it will inevitably bring.

All the stigma for The Red Wedding and all the blood is on Frey and Bolton hands.  Tywin wrote a few letters, made a few promises and carefully ensured his ends were achieved and that House Lannister is insulated because it took no part.  I think you have a non-dictionary understanding of recklessness and impulsiveness.

On 11/10/2023 at 5:53 PM, Hugorfonics said:

There are times like when he doesnt answer Baolns call or Aemons but that I think was still a decision he made, impulsively not moving, if that makes sense?

None at all.  He doesn't respond to Balon's approach because Balon is already attacking and weakening the Starks so why should he make concessions or promises when he has no need?  Balon has claimed independence and will be brought to heel in time.  If by Aemon you mean the Night Watch's appeal for aid then the calculation is the same - trouble in the North means trouble for the Starks and a tactical benefit to the Iron Throne.  No one believes in the boogeymen to the north so his calculations are based on imperfect information (as all decisions are) but it is calculation not impulse.  I think you're mistaking his instinctive grasp of the political and military situation for an impulsive unconsidered response.

On 11/10/2023 at 5:53 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Genna is extremely paranoid (because she can see) and wrote down all her complaints anxious to complain to the first person whos not her husband, while Keavan from his 5 minutes of rule used it to send men to die by Griff by sending such a small force. Im not sure either of these guys are the best examples.

We don't have much on them but I'm curious as to why you think Genna is paranoid, let alone extremely paranoid or why a potential misjudgment on Kevan's part would make him and / or Genna as recklessly arrogant as Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey.  Do you mean Genna can clearly see that setting up in Riverrun after The Red Wedding with a lot of Riverlands nobility inc Edmure held hostage is a horribly uncomfortable and exposed situation?  And that as Emmon's a bit thick and absorbed with pride at his new title she confides in Jaime?  I think she has good grounds to worry.  Still, what little we see of Genna and Kevan strikes me as pretty normal and in no way resembles the behaviour of Cersei, Jaime or Joffrey in their self-indulgent and arrogant excesses.

On 11/10/2023 at 5:53 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion absolutely cant keep his mouth shut and is one of the most impulsive characters I think in the series. Usually for jokes or silly escapades like pissing off the "edge of the world" but its also often quick decisions like to bring Tyrell into an alliance or send Young Griff across the map

Tyrion can't keep his mouth shut, true, but he's shrewd.  We see Tyrion as Hand so we can see how he approaches ruling as opposed to Cersei and we can see how Tywin and Joffrey approach the same problem of what to do with prisoners after the Blackwater - kill them all (impulse, emotion, vengeance) versus forgiveness for oaths of loyalty (calculation, statecraft).  As Genna tells Jaime, Tyrion is Tywin's son.

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Stannis can still sometimes make great burns and look as dour as one can possibly look at the same time.

He smiles all the time tho

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Tommen is, like, seven and then eight. He also enjoys laughing, is sometimes hilarious in an adorable way. He has potential,

I dont think so. Hes older than the girl? Shes funny, or witty to be precise. Tommen juts isnt. Like Keaven. Its not a crime.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Kevan was pretty damn savage with Cersei.

"And his father too?" Or something like that? He can roast but its missing the punchline that the three are known for. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Of course though, given how much time he spent with Tywin the mood killer, it definitely would have left a mark at him.

Same could be said about all of them. But I find that a sense of humor isnt always inherited or learned, sometimes it just is.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

But the point is that cracking jokes is a stereotypical Lannister trait overall. Of course you will always have exceptions. Tywin is not suddenly not a Lannister because he hates jokes, and having one or two more members who aren't typically snarky doesn't invalidate the fact that a huge amount of them are.

Theres certainly a wit that goes along with being a Lannister, which I do think Tywin kinda has, he just dumbs it down for the bland audience that is himself. But Greyjoy and Baratheon are also very funny, even witty. I think it's more that Stark is just not funny, which is in itself very funny.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Don't think there was a battle of wits between them.

Jaime in their shared scenes is funnier then Tyrion, although Cersei is funnier then Jaime in theirs. In this scene Id say the aunt had more and better jokes. (I do think overall the order of funniest to 3rd is Tyrion Cersei Jaime)

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Nah, they aren't like Tywin at all, neither are his children. This common idea that Tyrion is Tywin's copy is honestly overrated both in universe and outside amongst the readers. Sure, he shares some traits with Tywin, well, he also shares the fact that he has to breath like Tywin does, doesn't mean they so similar.

I mean his kids are far greater than he is, so like what he tried to be they actually are.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

The Lannister siblings thinking what their dad would do doesn't make them like their dads. If I think what would Obama do, I will not become Obama.

Yould behave like him tho. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Jaime jumping to a bear pit wasn't a bluff. 

What would you call it?

Quote

Not until they were half a league from Harrenhal and out of range of archers on the walls did Steelshanks Walton let his anger show. "Are you mad, Kingslayer? Did you mean to die? No man can fight a bear with his bare hands!"

"One bare hand and one bare stump," Jaime corrected. "But I hoped you'd kill the beast before the beast killed me. Elsewise, Lord Bolton would have peeled you like an orange, no?"

Steelshanks cursed him roundly for a fool of Lannister, spurred his horse, and galloped away up the column.

 

 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

No, Joffrey is drunk.  Tywin is never drunk in story

Because adults can hold their liquor. Joff was a kid, it was a specific crazy happenstance moment that cant get replicated.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tywin is one of the most calculating and considered characters in story, not impulsive at all.

Even his bowels are on a time clock.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

t's not impulsive or reckless.  It's a considered response that punishes a slight to House Lannister by punishing House Tully (Catelyn being the one to kidnap Tyrion) and attempting to draw Ned out of KL to capture him and trade him for Tyrion.  Private wars or armed conflicts between rival nobles were a feature of medieval feudal kingdoms and breaking the king's peace only earned a rap on the knuckles provided no treason was involved.  Remember that after Ramsay kidnapped, married and starved Lady Hornwood Roose Bolton claimed the Hornwood lands and we had Manderly knights and Bolton armsmen fighting each other over who would claim the Hornwood inheritance.  Ser Rodrik's response is to try and restore the peace and let Robb sort it out.  That's the calculation Tywin makes.

(Ser Rodrik stays at home writing nasty letters, he doesnt actually do his job when his prejudice gets the better of him and he rides out to "defeat" the Ironborn, lol)
Comparing said character to Ramsay is not a good way of convincing me hes not reckless.
1 kingdoms vs 7 is what Tywin went into, and he thought hed get away with it because he underestimated his opponent. Very compulsive. 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Now Jaime waylaying Ned in the streets of KL, butchering his men and then having to flee is entirely impulsive and reckless. 

Very, good example. Tywin did the same but on a larger scale. Jaimes thinking was an exchange of Tyrion for Ned, there was a calculation behind that as well.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Please be serious.  Jaime is investing Riverrun and Tywin is blockading the King's Road.  The only place for Robb to cross the Greenfork is The Twins and they are impregnable with Walder Frey expected to sit on the sidelines as he did during the Robellion.  Tywin is outmanoeuvred by the Stark-Frey marriage pact but it is hardly because he is reckless and impulsive.

I mean as I said above he completely underestimated his opponent, and then following the battle he literally hides in Harrenhal for the remainder of the campaign because now he compulsively overestimates Robb.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

All the stigma for The Red Wedding and all the blood is on Frey and Bolton hands.  Tywin wrote a few letters, made a few promises and carefully ensured his ends were achieved and that House Lannister is insulated because it took no part.  I think you have a non-dictionary understanding of recklessness and impulsiveness.

Thats not true, and Tywin knew it wasn't true which is why he kept it a secret, because he knew he was impulsively making the incorrect decision. 

Quote

"My lords may not know," said Qyburn, "but in the winesinks and pot shops of this city, there are those who suggest that the crown might have been somehow complicit in Lord Walder's crime."

 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

.  I think you're mistaking his instinctive grasp of the political and military situation for an impulsive unconsidered response.

His grasp on foreign politics is unflinching, he doesnt bend to the times which I think is very impetuous and not calculating at all

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

We don't have much on them but I'm curious as to why you think Genna is paranoid, let alone extremely paranoid or why a potential misjudgment on Kevan's part would make him and / or Genna as recklessly arrogant as Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey.  Do you mean Genna can clearly see that setting up in Riverrun after The Red Wedding with a lot of Riverlands nobility inc Edmure held hostage is a horribly uncomfortable and exposed situation?  And that as Emmon's a bit thick and absorbed with pride at his new title she confides in Jaime?  I think she has good grounds to worry. 

Yeah, lol.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Still, what little we see of Genna and Kevan strikes me as pretty normal and in no way resembles the behaviour of Cersei, Jaime or Joffrey in their self-indulgent and arrogant excesses

Perhaps normal for this middle ages period, I think their constant obsession with worthless land is peculiar, but for sure that according to them is pretty normal. 
I wouldnt however sell Genna short, she is after all a Lannister.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tyrion can't keep his mouth shut, true, but he's shrewd.  We see Tyrion as Hand so we can see how he approaches ruling as opposed to Cersei and we can see how Tywin and Joffrey approach the same problem of what to do with prisoners after the Blackwater - kill them all (impulse, emotion, vengeance) versus forgiveness for oaths of loyalty (calculation, statecraft).  As Genna tells Jaime, Tyrion is Tywin's son.

Tyrion even more Id say, but to think he doesnt move with emotion is just a complete misreading of Tyrion's story. Being impulsive isnt always terrible though, and often like especially in Tyrions case, quick thinking often saves and betters his life.

[Alester Florent]

On 11/10/2023 at 5:53 PM, Hugorfonics said:

He immediately goes to war following Tyrion's arrest which is nothing but reckless and impulsive.

He doesn't, though. He gathers his troops at the Golden Tooth but doesn't declare war. He sends Gregor into the Riverlands to wage a guerrilla campaign, but not under his own banner, thereby retaining deniability. He only attacks in full force after Robert dies and he can count on the support of the crown.

As to the battle at the Green Fork, the geography of the Trident means he can't protect the capital and Riverrun at the same time with the same army. Given that his priority is to block the advance down the Kingsroad, he can't really with his own army stop Robb from getting to Riverrun on the other bank if Robb crosses at the Twins. Fortunateky, he has two armies. And remember too it was Roose who attacked Tywin there, not the other way round.

Robb's masterstroke was not fooling Tywin. It was the forced march on Riverrun and the ambush on Jaime. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Alester Florent

[the trees have eyes]

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because adults can hold their liquor. Joff was a kid, it was a specific crazy happenstance moment that cant get replicated.

Sigh.  So give me all the examples of young drunk Tywin acting impulsively and recklessly.  That's right, there aren't any, any more than there are for Ned or Stannis.  Tywin equally was "never the boy you were".  You are making a bad argument with nothing to support it.

Joffrey also gets drunk at his wedding and attempts to humiliate Tyrion, upending the chalice over him.  Not to mention the kitchen cat or Joffrey's faun.

Brandon = the wild wolf, Ned = the quiet wolf.  Robert is wild and impulsive, Stannis the opposite.  Family members have different personalities and instinctive behaviours.  Tywin is not impulsive and this is a bizarre point to circle the wagons around.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

(Ser Rodrik stays at home writing nasty letters, he doesnt actually do his job when his prejudice gets the better of him and he rides out to "defeat" the Ironborn, lol)

Lol what?  Ser Rodrik rides out and captures "Reek" (believing he has killed Ramsay in the process) but he leaves a dispute between two Stark bannermen - Bolton and Manderly - to the king to resolve.  The fighting between Manderly and Bolton troops happens after Ramsay is captured because both now have a claim to the Hornwood lands that the king must rule on.  This is about Bolton and Manderly's actions not Ramsay's initial crime.

The Ironborn are not Stark bannermen and invade so he goes to fight the invaders. Pretty simple to understand his actions in both circumstances really unless you misrepresent his actions or misunderstand his job (or both).

I think you overlook the extent to which private wars were a feature of medieval feudal systems.  Which is understandable as we have a completely different system but not helpful to an understanding of either the Hornwood-Manderly or the Lannister-Tully(Stark) disputes.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

1 kingdoms vs 7 is what Tywin went into, and he thought hed get away with it because he underestimated his opponent. Very compulsive. 

Tywin is neither impulsive nor compulsive.  He plans carefully, hiring sell swords and mustering troops before raiding the Riverlands in order to draw Ned out from KL and kidnap him to trade for Tyrion.  Cersei boaring Robert to death makes Joffrey king and completely changes the situation.  Raiding the Riverlands may be ruthless but it's strategic calculation not impulsiveness.

And it's never 1 v 7.  The Lannisters have a dispute with the Tullys/Starks that only spills into open warfare after Robert's death.  At that point Joffrey is king so legally Tywin has the whip hand vs the Tullys and Starks even if the war of the five kings is a free for all.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Very, good example. Tywin did the same but on a larger scale. Jaimes thinking was an exchange of Tyrion for Ned, there was a calculation behind that as well.

Almost comically wrong.  Jaime had no intention of kidnapping Ned.  If he had he could have done so right there.  He has 20 guardsmen and Ned has 4.  Done as easily as Catelyn took Tyrion. He can put a bag over his head and whisk him off to Casterly Rock as easily as he goes there himself.

But this is Jaime we're talking of so he kills Ned's men to chastise him and then has to abscond as a fugitive, without the prisoner you somehow manage to claim he had calculated to acquire.  It is reckless, impulsive and plain foolishness and he never planned or attempted to take Ned captive so let's not pretend he did.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean as I said above he completely underestimated his opponent, and then following the battle he literally hides in Harrenhal for the remainder of the campaign because now he compulsively overestimates Robb.

TBH I don't really know what point you are trying to make here.  He was wrongfooted by the Stark-Frey alliance and Robb's relief of Riverrun and capture of Jaime put him at a tactical disadvantage.  Given both Stannis and Renly have declared themselves kings at this point and Renly has the Tyrells, Tywin's military position is not good with the south in rebellion as well as the north and Riverlands.  Robb has shown himself a capable opponent but he is not Tywin's only opponent so what are you trying to demonstrate? 

Harrenhall has a clear central strategic location between KL and Casterly Rock and controlling north-south troop movements while living off enemies' lands.  In any case he also attempts to move back west to gain reinforcements but this is scuppered by Edmure's defence of the fords and Robb's victory at Oxcross.  Why you think the fortunes of war give some insight into impulsive or compulsive behaviour on Tywin's part is unclear. 

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats not true, and Tywin knew it wasn't true which is why he kept it a secret, because he knew he was impulsively making the incorrect decision. 

Of course it's true.  The blame is on the Freys and Boltons.  No Lannister troops took part in The Red Wedding.  This odd behaviour of attempting to blame all Tywin's calculations on impulsive behaviour is just totally wrong.  I think you could read The Prince and accuse Machiavelli of being impulsive, you're that far off here.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

His grasp on foreign politics is unflinching, he doesnt bend to the times which I think is very impetuous and not calculating at all

If you want to disagree with his political acumen or understanding or any of his decisions, then by all means go ahead.  But there is a logical absurdity in decrying his political and diplomatic calculations as "not calculating" because you don't like or agree with them.  There is also no grounds for effectively accusing Tywin of being ideological or intransigent, he is above all ruthless and pragmatic.  If you think Tywin is impetuous in not moving with the times you'll have to attempt to explain what you mean, otherwise it's a nonsensical word salad.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yeah, lol.

So you agree that Genna's "paranoia" is an accurate and astute reading of the difficult situation she is in and well founded.  Seems you have a non-dictionary understanding of paranoia as well.  Okay.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps normal for this middle ages period, I think their constant obsession with worthless land is peculiar, but for sure that according to them is pretty normal. 

Well, yes, none of us want to play the game of thrones I hope but you could at least try and discuss characters in context.  Of course it's normal for nobility in a feudal system.  Land = money, military force and political power.  Despite that some characters are arrogant and others are not based on their personality and to varying degrees, just as in real life, both historical and contemporary.  Neither Genna nor Kevan strike me as similar in behaviour to Joffrey, Jaime and Cersei but if you want to make a class based argument for them all sharing characteristics based on birth and education that override any differences of character or personality I find that quite mistaken and a really limiting approach, although a useful cudgel, to take to most characters in story.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion even more Id say, but to think he doesnt move with emotion is just a complete misreading of Tyrion's story. Being impulsive isnt always terrible though, and often like especially in Tyrions case, quick thinking often saves and betters his life.

I think we're at cross-purposes here.  Early Tyrion has a big mouth but his actions are not impulsive or reckless, they're quite reasonable or considered as we're often in his head to see.  Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey are all presented in the early novels in an appalling light with little to no impulse control, few or no boundaries and an astonishing recklessness.  Later Tyrion is darker and more reckless - killing Shae and his father when he had no need to even confront them - but I'm not saying emotion is not an important part of his make-up from the beginning (being a dwarf obsessing over Tysha it's very much there), more that he has a better control over it and that this is when my impression of Tyrion as a character formed.

I partly agree with the last sentence but being quick thinking and decisive is not the same as being impulsive.  Being impulsive is acting in line with an emotional reaction or a subconscious desire, or acting in line with a conscious desire without considering the implications or consequences.  So Tyrion demanding a trial by combat at The Eyrie (or KL) is a considered response to his predicament after weighing up his options as is the gambit with the mountain clans when he is kicked out of The Vale of Arryn.  This is one of his strengths, a quick reading of the situation and the selection of the best available option, often high stakes and / or creative as the situation demands.  Taking Shae to KL on the other hand is impulsive because he knows the risks but ignores them because he wants to.

Edited November 12, 2023 by the trees have eyes

[Hugorfonics]

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Of course it's true.  The blame is on the Freys and Boltons.  No Lannister troops took part in The Red Wedding.  This odd behaviour of attempting to blame all Tywin's calculations on impulsive behaviour is just totally wrong.

Didnt you read my quote? Sorry for not responding to the rest of the post but its a bit of a pet peeve of mine, digging up relevant quotes that are just ignored. Please do because Im about to supply a (super famous) quote from The Prince.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think you could read The Prince and accuse Machiavelli of being impulsive, you're that far off here.

Like, have you ever actually read The Prince? 

Quote

I certainly believe this: that it is better to be impetuous than cautious, because Fortune is a woman, and if you want to keep her under it is necessary to beat her and force her down. It is clear that she more often allows herself to be won over by impetuous men than by those who proceed coldly. And so, like a woman, Fortune is always the friend of young men, for they are less cautious, more ferocious, and command her with more audacity.

 

[the trees have eyes]

35 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Didnt you read my quote? Sorry for not responding to the rest of the post but its a bit of a pet peeve of mine, digging up relevant quotes that are just ignored. Please do because Im about to supply a (super famous) quote from The Prince.

I didn't ignore it, I overlooked it. Quoting a post removes the embedded quotes (as it has done here for your Machiavelli quote).  But why ignore everything on the actual subject we are discussing - the characteristics of recklessness, arrogance or impulsiveness (compulsiveness / impetuousness) and to what degree they are present in individual Lannisters, particularly Tywin, to focus on several marginal comments?

If you prefer: the vast majority (one might also say the lion's share) of the blame and and the infamy attaches to the Freys and Boltons who carried out The Red Wedding but the obvious benefit to the Crown (/Lannisters) is clear - the North and Riverlands return to the 7K under loyal bannermen.  They are none the less at arm's length from the events and Tywin's actions result from the textually explained calculation that he is insulated.  Whether he is right or not will become clear in time but it is a decision driven by calculation not impulse.

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like, have you ever actually read The Prince? 

Yes but I confess it was over 30 years ago.  It's still on my bookshelf.  Thank you for asking.

53 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

So you take a metaphor where he deals with Fortune (and compares it to a woman, or capricious Lady Luck if you will) and advises that it is better to be bold rather than cautious, in other words to drive events rather than to wait on them, to take calculated risks rather than being paralysed into inertia by fear, and interpret that as an argument in favour of recklessness and impulsive action without thought of the consequences? 

There's two meanings for impetuous.  The first is moving forcefully or rapidly and is what Machiavelli is advising (synonyms are powerful, vigorous, forceful, relentless and rapid).  The other, which you are construing, is acting or doing quickly without thought or care (synonyms are impulsive, rash, overhasty, heedless, reckless and foolhardy).

I hope it's clear which behaviour Machiavelli is advising Princes to adopt and that it's to be vigorous and forceful not heedless or foolhardy.

If we can agree on language then we might be able to agree that Tywin's behaviour throughout is in line with Machiavelli's advice and that neither his behaviour nor the advice is to be impulsive or reckless.

[Gilbert Green]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:48 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Nope. Dany carried out justice as a leader of a new state. She also felt guilt for doing it.

She was performing a type of symbolic collective punishment.  The number of 163 victims was symbolic, and unrelated to specific evidence against them.

She felt guilty?  Sure.  But that was her conscience telling her what she did was wrong.  Otherwise it means nothing at all.

In the end, I expect it will be revealed that Daario strung up the children.

[frenin]

16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

She was performing a type of symbolic collective punishment.  The number of 163 victims was symbolic, and unrelated to specific evidence against them.

She literally demanded the leaders of the slave masters, ie those who gave the order.

16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

In the end, I expect it will be revealed that Daario strung up the children.

Why would he do that?

 

Answering OP, from worst to bad.

 

1) Tywin

2) Cersei

3)Joffrey

4)Jaime

5) Tyrion.

Edited November 19, 2023 by frenin

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She literally demanded the leaders of the slave masters, ie those who gave the order.

She did not know who gave the order.  Nobody confessed.  The number of victims matches the number of children.  It does not match the number of people who gave the order.   It does not even match the number of leaders of the slave class.  She just killed 163 slavers to avenge 163 children.  That's it.  The only evidence she has is that some (predictably) pointed the finger at each other in a desperate attempt to save themselves.  At least, that's what I conclude from the symbolism of their executions.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Why would he do that?

Why did the slavers do that?  To manipulate Dany's emotions?  Just to be evil?  In a fit of insanity?  It's not exactly an easy question to answer no matter who you blame.  Especially if you try to blame 163 people at once.  But somebody sure did it.

"All present?  Great.  I propose a resolution.  Let us crucify 163 children just to show Dany how evil we are so that Dany will be especially determined to destroy our city and then kill us all in an equally painful manner.  All in favor?  Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye.  Great.  That's 163 Ayes and zero Nayes.  Resolution passes.  Lets go murder some children."

On the other hand, maybe Daario did it.  And for equally insane reasons. 

He was caught at the scene of the crime.  He is a megalomaniacal creature of blood and chaos.  And he practices blood magic.

But no, he was not stringing the kids up when they caught him.  He was trying to cut them down.  To spare Dany's feelings.  Yes yes yes, that's it.  Good story, Daario.  Nice save.

GRRM says that there is more to Daario than meets the eye.  But fans seem to hate any theory that has anything to do with Daario.  They just want him to go away.   He spends most of his time out of Dany's sight, but nobody has any interest in what he gets up to when Dany isn't looking.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

She did not know who gave the order.  Nobody confessed.  The number of victims matches the number of children.  It does not match the number of people who gave the order.   It does not even match the number of leaders of the slave class.  She just killed 163 slavers to avenge 163 children.  That's it.  The only evidence she has is that some (predictably) pointed the finger at each other in a desperate attempt to save themselves.  At least, that's what I conclude from the symbolism of their executions.

Why did the slavers do that?  To manipulate Dany's emotions?  Just to be evil?  In a fit of insanity?  It's not exactly an easy question to answer no matter who you blame.  Especially if you try to blame 163 people at once.  But somebody sure did it.

"All present?  Great.  I propose a resolution.  Let us crucify 163 children just to show Dany how evil we are so that Dany will be especially determined to destroy our city and then kill us all in an equally painful manner.  All in favor?  Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye Aye.  Great.  That's 163 Ayes and zero Nayes.  Resolution passes.  Lets go murder some children."

On the other hand, maybe Daario did.  And for equally insane reasons. 

He was caught at the scene of the crime.  He is a megalomaniacal creature of blood and chaos.  And he practices blood magic.

But no, he was not stringing the kids up when they caught him.  He was trying to cut them down.  To spare Dany's feelings.  Yes yes yes.  Good story, Daario.

GRRM says that there is more to Daario than meets the eye.  But fans seem to hate any theory that has anything to do with Daario.  They just want him to go away. 

Basically, it was a “fuck you” from the slavers to Daenerys, and her freedmen, as well as a means to instil fear in the slaves.  Like the Spartan krypteia would murder random slaves, to keep them frightened.

Daenerys’ mistake was to be too lenient to the slavers. She ought to have executed every paterfamilias among them.

Edited November 19, 2023 by SeanF