Where is this idea that Tyrion was good in the first 3 books coming from when the vast majority of bad things he has done happen in them?

[boltons are sick]

This makes me legitimately curious. I have seen countless posts about howTyrion used to be good in the first 3 books but then he snapped in the fifth after all the bad things that happened to him and now he is bad and rapes random sex slaves. However, this doesn't really add up because he has done lot of bad things BEFORE the fifth book. I will just copy and paste a list of all the bad or morally ambiguous things Tyrion has done throughout the whole series which is taken from his page on the Inconsistently Heinous wiki  to show how many of the things on the list come from the first 3 books:

• He crushed the musician Marillion's fingers out of spite.
• He took revenge on Lysa Arryn for imprisoning him by arming the mountain clans with new weapons and armors and then goaded them into attacking the villages of the Vale. While those raids are not shown, from what is described in the books by other people and what is presented about the mountain clans, it is still clear that they were devastating for the people of Vale. Tyrion himself even thinks about how the Vale is going to be "reduced to a smoking wasteland" which further shows the destructive nature of his plan.
• While he has a soft spot for underdogs, he has no problem with armies raiding, killing, raping and burning villages down, saying it is just a part of war.
• He seemingly allowed Allar Deem to take the black in and go to the Night's Watch but instead he ordered the captain who was transporting him to throw him off-board on their way to the Wall (granted, Allar Deem had it coming for killing an innocent woman and her baby).
• He then replaced him with Bronn, someone who is just as amoral. When asked if he would kill a baby without question, Bronn replied he wouldn't kill one without asking how much.
• He poisoned his sister, Queen Cersei, to the point of her getting sick so that he could run the government while she was absent.
• When Cersei had a prostitute captured, Tyrion threatened that any harm that would come to the prostitute, including rape, he would inflict upon Tommen who is his nephew and a child. When he hears that the prostitute had been whipped bloodily (which was actually done by Tywin, but at the time Tyrion thinks it's Cersei), he thinks with sadness about how he is going to have to do the same to Tommen because otherwise Cersei would win which heavily indicates his threat was actually true.
• When Varys informs him that a large group of men called the Antler Men were planning to sabotage the defenses of the city and let Stannis conquer it, Tyrion has them all arrested and gives them to Joffrey to be brutally tortured and killed. Joffrey nailed antlers to their heads and then shot them with trebuchets against the enemy forces and Tyrion doesn't seem to feel any remorse about it.
• He slapped his lover Shae after she mocked him.
• Even though he knows his nephew Joffrey is not the rightful heir to Robert Baratheon and would be a terrible and cruel King, he still supports his claim to the throne and organizes the defense of King's Landing against Stannis' forces. His plan to use wildfire to destroy Stannis' fleet which kills many of the sailors, including Davos' four sons, and his management over the defense of the city is what ensures that Joffrey would remain in power.
• He ordered Bron to kill a singer who was trying to extort him. He then ordered him to get rid of the body by giving it to an inn to be cooked into a stew which was then fed to the poor people of King's Landing who didn't even suspect they were eating human flesh.
• He wants to sleep with Sansa, who is around 13 years old. Granted he doesn't actually go through with it even though it was expected of him by his father to consumate his marriage.
• When he learned the truth about Tysha, he swears revenge on his entire family, including Jaime, who loved him. He even lied about killing Joffrey and confessed that Cersei is cheating on Jaime, just for the sake of hurting him.
• While he was escaping from execution, he killed his former lover Shae on his way for giving false testimony against him. This act is presented as more heinous than it is in the show because in the books Shae doesn't try to kill him but instead starts apologizing to him and says that she was forced to testify against her will by Tywin and she was too afraid to refuse but Tyrion kills her anyway.
• He shoots his father, Tywin Lannister, with a crossbow and kills him (granted, Tywin had it coming for all the abuse he put Tyrion through and for his other actions).
• After his kills his father, he takes a drastic turn for the worst, becoming more cynical and bitter than ever.
• He often fantasizes about hurting his family, often of him raping and strangling Cersei to death. He also fantasizes about Jaime and Cersei's heads on spikes.
• In the fifth book, he goes into a brothel, and even after learning that the girls there are sex slaves who were kidnapped from their homelands and forced to please men against their will, he still forces himself on one of them even after he sees that she is uncomfortable with it.
• It is very likely he might have raped another sex slave girl as well in Illyrio's mansion if his comments that he is going to claim her after his dinner with Illyrio are anything to go by. He even threatens that if he kills her, her master wouldn't mind because Tyrion is more important to him than some sex girl. The only reason why Tyrion threatens her like that is because he enjoys seeing her afraid of him.
• He manipulated Jon Connington and Young Griff to attack Westeros early, leading to more war and death in Westeros.
• When he becomes a slave, he takes advantage when one of the guards gets sick, to feed him poisoned mushrooms, so he can watch him die (though the guard had it coming for his mistreatment of Tyrion and the other slaves).

As you can see, Tyrion in the very first book incites the wildling clans to attack the Vale by promising them that they can take it for themselves even though he knows their savage lifestyle and that this would lead to a lot of death and destruction for the people of the Vale. He not only incites them to attack the Vale, he also provides them with better weapons and armor to make it easier for them. And before anyone says that he didn't expect them to do it and he doesn't bear any responsility, first, as the person who deliberately advised them to attack the Vale and put that thought into their heads that they could conquer the Vale knowing what this would lead to and as the person who provided them with better weapons and armor so they could do it, yes he is responsible for their raids. Not only that, we actually see from his own POV that his goal is to reduce the Vale to a "smoking wasteland" which shows that scale of death and devastation he wants to bring on the Vale with this. This is the exact quote from the first book (I am translating from Bulgarian to english, so there might be some inconsistencies but it should be more or less the same):

Quote

Tyrion was about to explain to his lord father how he planned to turn the Vale of Arryn into a smoking wasteland, but he was never given the chance. The door slammed open again. The messenger looked at his clansmen very puzzled, then bowed to Lord Tywin.

This is something Tyrion thinks would happen to the Vale because of his actions of inciting the wildling to attack and giving them good weapons and armor and he takes pride in that and wants to brag about it to his father. You can't claim that he is just a weapons dealer who is not responsible for what his clients do with his weapons. The analogue would be that he is a weapons dealer who deliberately advises his clients to use his weapons to kill innocent people with them en mass and he takes great pride in all the death and destruction his actions have caused.

In the second book, he has a large group of men called the Antler's men arrested and then has them given to Joffrey to be tortured to death and killed. Joffrey nails antlers to their heads and proceeds to catapult them against the enemy lines and Tyrion feels absolutely no remorse over condemning them to such a gruesome fate.

In the third book, he orders the death of a singer who was extorting him and then he has Bronn give his body somewhere where it would be cooked into a stew and fed to unsuspecting random people who don't know that they are eating human flesh.

I could go on but you get my point by now. I like Tyrion and I sympathize with him but I really don't understand where this whole interpretation that Tyrion in the first books was a good man who was aiming to improve the lives of the poor people even comes from.

Also, I have to say that it really annoys me that so many people try to portray Cersei as "evil" and yet they think Tyrion is "good" when they have both done some really fucked up things throughout the series and they both have excuses for their actions and redeeming and sympathetic qualities.

Edited November 2, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

Probably because he 'balances it out' with some 'good' things like his relatively nice treatment of Sansa. Come the later books, he isn't doing anything good, just bad.

[Gilbert Green]

[a blast from the past]

TYRION SUCKS: A RETROSPECTIVE

PART II: POOR TYRION

 

[in the mountains]

TYRION: Hey Bronn! Want to hear my tale of woe?

BRONN: No.

TYRION: When I was just a lad, Jaime and I rescued a starving unwashed common girl who was being chased by brigands. While Jaime pursued them, I took her to an inn, got her drunk, and had my way with her. She cried when I took her maidenhood. That sucked! But then she said she loved me. That rocked! So I married her. Then dad found out. He was pissed. He made Jaime tell me the truth. She was a whore.

BRONN: A virgin whore?

TYRION: Yes. Jaime paid the pimp double. Anyway, once I realized that she did not really love me for my dong, I was devastated. So I gang-raped her. My dong made me do it … and my dad … and the devil. They all made me do it. An entire platoon of soldiers helped too.

BRONN: Wow, that really … . So what became of her then?

TYRION: Dunno! Who cares! She never really loved me, the bitch.

BRONN: I would have killed the man who did that to me.

TYRION: My dad? Jaime? You may get the chance. A Lannister pays his debts.

BRONN: No … I mean … if I was a wench, I would kill the man who … er … oh never mind.

TYRION: Poor, poor Tyrion!

FANS: <sob>

 

[shortly]

HICKS: Hee Haw! We are Evil Hicks, and we totally suck. Prepare to be raped and murdered, foolish travelers.

BRONN: (leaping to his feet) Who dies first!

TYRION: No, Bronn! Hear me, Evil Hicks! I am Tyrion Lannister. My father is Tywin Lannister, the richest and most evil of the lowland lords. See us safely through these mountains, and you shall be richly rewarded.

SHAGGA: I shall chop off your manhood and …

HEAD HICK: Quiet, Shagga. Halfman, I am intrigued by your offer. What can you give us? Gold? Silk? Steel? Swords? Mail?

TYRION: Not just that! I can offer you the Vale of Arryn. You can rape and murder EVERYBODY!

HICKS: HEE HAW!!!

TYRION: (aside) Take that, Lysa Arryn!

 

[back at the crossroads]

[iNKEEPER, now a corpse, hangs from a tree]

TYRION: (to INKEEPER) A room, a meal, and a flagon of wine! That was all I asked.

INKEEPER: […]

TYRION: Well?

INKEEPER: […]

TYRION: (walking past) Poor, poor Tyrion!

 

[inside]

TYRION: Hey dad! Want to hear my evil plan to turn the Vale of Arryn into a smoking wasteland?

TYWIN: What?

TYRION: I said … Do you want to hear my evil plan to …

MESSENGER: My Lord! The Stark host is moving down the causeway.

TYWIN: Hear me, Brave and Fearsome Hicks. The Stark host is approaching. Fight for us, and you shall be richly rewarded.

HICKS: Lion-Lord, we already have Half-man's promises. We have no need of yours.

TYWIN: Good point! But what would you rather do? Rape and murder helpless peasants, or fight bravely against fierce and skilled warriors?

SHAGGA: Er … um … well … Shagga want to … FIGHT BRAVELY.

HICKS: Yes. Hicks want to FIGHT FIERCE WARRIORS. We will march with you, Lion-Lord. HEE HAW HEE HAW HEE HAW HEE HAW!

TYRION: I thought you were supposed to be EVIL hicks.

HICKS: And Halfman will march with us.

TYRION: Er…

 

[later, before the battle]

TYRION: Bronn, most evil of minions, I have a task for you. I want you to fetch me an EAGER HAPPY whore. Jyck used to fetch me sullen, miserable whores, or timid whores who used to scream in horror at my ugly purple dong. I DON'T LIKE THAT. Make sure it's an EAGER HAPPY whore. I also want young and pretty.

BRONN: Gotcha! [exit]

BRONN'S VOICE: (offscreen) Surrender that wench in the name of LANNISTER!

(offscreen) Clash! Ching! Clash! Chang!

WOMAN'S VOICE: (offscreen) EEEK!

PODRICK: What's that noise?

TYRION: What noise?

PODRICK: I thought I heard a woman scream.

TYRION: Well, I'm sure it has nothing to do with me. I sent for an EAGER HAPPY whore.

 

[later]

[enter BRONN and SHAE]

TYRION: (to Bronn) Is this her?

SHAE: HI! I'M AN EAGER HAPPY WHORE! (Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy).

TYRION: Okay, listen up, whore. I am a LANNISTER; a rich and powerful lord, and you are a whore. I shall keep you as long as I want, and pay you as much as I please. How do you feel about that?

SHAE: EAGER and HAPPY!

TYRION: Okay, but I will want more than just eager happy sex. I want you to laugh at my jokes, even if they are not funny, and things like that.

SHAE: Hahaha. But m'lord, your jokes ARE funny.

 

[later]

TYRION: Where'd you get her, Bronn?

BRONN: From a knight. He was loath to give her up, but my blade at his throat changed his thinking.

TYRION: I mislike your methods.

BRONN: [shrug] Fine, I shall take her back.

TYRION: Er, on second thought, I LIKE your methods. But you have made me an ENEMY. What shall we do about THAT!

TYRION & BRONN: [whisper whisper] don't want him beside me in the battle [whisper whisper] dad put me in the vanguard [whisper whisper]

SHAE: M'lord, I woke and heard voices – something like "put my Enemy in the van …"

TYRION: What?

SHAE: I mean … I awoke and found you gone, m'lord.

TYRION: So, tell me about my Enemy … I mean … the man you were boinking before me.

SHAE: Oh … he's nobody … no threat to you … he's just a small man.

TYRION: Did you just say SMALL MAN!!?

SHAE: Oops!

TYRION: So what am I? A GIANT?

SHAE: Er … um … you're … a giant? YES! MY GIANT! MY GIANT OF A LANNISTER! And I am your EAGER HAPPY WHORE!

TYRION: Yes … well… that's okay then.

 

[later]

TYRION: Dad, I hate you. You don't love me.

TYWIN: Uh oh! This crap again!

TYRION: You sent me into battle with the Hicks. You don't care if I DIE!

TYWIN: Jaime does not whine like this. He is only TOO eager to rush into battle.

TYRION: But he's bigger than me. You just like him best and it's NOT FAIR!

MESSENGER: My Lord! Terrible news! Jaime was ambushed and captured by the Starks, as he rushed to battle.

TYWIN: Oh no! THEY HAVE MY SON!

TYRION: SEE! You like him best!

TYWIN: Enough, Tyrion. I have work for you. I need you to go to King's Landing, and rule in my stead, as Hand of the King.

TYRION: Uh … gosh, why me? Why not Uncle Kevan?

TYWIN: You're my son!

TYRION: You're only saying that because Jaime has been captured.

TYWIN: Tyrion, will you please stop whining, and get your ass to King's Landing.

TYRION: Okay, okay!

TYWIN: And one more thing, Tyrion.

TYRION: What?

TYWIN: When you get to court, no more whores.

TYRION: See? You don't love me. Poor Tyrion!

 

[later]

TYRION: Shae, I am taking you to King's Landing. How do you feel about that?

SHAE: Um … EAGER … and … HAPPY?

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

This makes me legitimately curious. I have seen countless posts about howTyrion used to be good in the first 3 books but then he snapped in the fifth after all the bad things that happened to him and now he is bad and rapes random sex slaves.

He acquired a sex slave in book 1.

He sent an armed man to sieze her, ordered her to pretend to love him and (by telling her the Tysha story) warned her what might happen if she did not pretend hard enough.

5 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

• He slapped his lover Shae after she mocked him.

She was his sex slave, not his lover.  And she did not mock him.  She only forgot her place.

5 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

• While he was escaping from execution, he killed his former lover Shae on his way for giving false testimony against him.

He killed his sex slave Shae.  And he killed her for the crime of not really loving him.  More or less as he implicitly threatened from the start, when he told her the Tysha story.

As for Shae testimony being false  ... I expect he let slip more than he intended when he was with Shae and drunk with power, sex and booze.  How much of what she said was really false?  Tyrion is innocent of Joffrey's murder, only in the sense that someone else got to Joffrey first.  Murdering Joffrey, when he finally got around to it, would hardly be the worst thing he had ever done either.  It would have bordered on self defense or justifiable tyrannicide.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[sifth]

I mean he does save Sansa from her public beating and possible murder, at the hands of Joff in the second book. It's probably the nicest thing I've ever seen a Lannister do in the series.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean he does save Sansa from her public beating and possible murder, at the hands of Joff in the second book. It's probably the nicest thing I've ever seen a Lannister do in the series.

Excuse me, Brienne, a bear and a pit called, they want a word with you. 
 

ETA: Tyrion is an entitled arsehole throughout. In the first 3 books he’s less openly villainous, that’s all. He does help Sansa and he does make the saddle for Bran, but that’s it as far as I remember. 
His treatment of Shae is horrible, his murdering her also. And yes, he suffered as a child, being a small person in Westeros w/ Tywin for a father and Cersei for a sister must have been a terrible experience. But it still doesn’t justify the nasty stuff he does, and despite his hardships he still is incredibly privileged compared to 99,99% of the population. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Alester Florent]

6 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

• He seemingly allowed Allar Deem to take the black in and go to the Night's Watch but instead he ordered the captain who was transporting him to throw him off-board on their way to the Wall (granted, Allar Deem had it coming for killing an innocent woman and her baby).
• He then replaced him with Bronn, someone who is just as amoral. When asked if he would kill a baby without question, Bronn replied he wouldn't kill one without asking how much.

No he didn't.

Allar Deem was not the commander of the city watch; he was a deputy to Janos Slynt. He replaced Slynt with Jacelyn Bywater, who seems decent enough.

As usual with these threads, the signal to noise ratio makes it hard to really get to grips with. Many of the "bad" things Tyrion did in the list above are in a Westerosi context largely value-neutral, or even things that we would cheer him for. And the list itself acknowledges this! Disposing of Allar Deem and shooting Tywin seem like things we should be cheering him for. You can't just stack up everything Tyrion's ever done and compare the lists numerically across books.

Tyrion was never a "good person", but his more sympathetic qualities are less in evidence in ADwD than they had been earlier in the series, while his actions become more overtly cruel and callous and even his internal monologue seems to concern himself less with what he ought to do.

 

[Gilbert Green]

31 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

 Many of the "bad" things Tyrion did in the list above are in a Westerosi context largely value-neutral, or even things that we would cheer him for. And the list itself acknowledges this! Disposing of Allar Deem and shooting Tywin seem like things we should be cheering him for.

Count me out.  Tyrion did not murder his father to make the world a better place.  And, in fact, he did not make the world a better place.   It is just one more murder, motivated by hate, greed, envy and the lust for power.

The killing of Tywin was not a justifiable killing.  It was simply murder.  That fact that Tywin may "deserve to die" for reasons unrelated to Tyrion's murder of him, is beside the point.

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

The killing of Tywin was not a justifiable killing.  It was simply murder.  That fact that Tywin may "deserve to die" for reasons unrelated to Tyrion's murder of him, is beside the point.

Tywin almost certainly knew Tyrion was innocent of the poisoning of Joffrey, and oversaw a trial which sentenced his own son to death: a judicial murder. Tyrion's killing him, ok, maybe not strictly self-defence since he could have escaped without hurting Tywin, but there was definitely an element of retributive justice to it even leaving aside Shae and Tysha and all that.

Forgive me if I don't shed any tears for Tywin, or condemn Tyrion for the killing. Tywin had it coming and it was poetic justice, if not legal justice, that his death came at Tyrion's hands.

[Gilbert Green]

28 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Tywin almost certainly knew Tyrion was innocent of the poisoning of Joffrey, and oversaw a trial which sentenced his own son to death: a judicial murder.

This is absolute nonsense.  Everyone believed that Tyrion was guilty.  Because Tyrion framed himself.  He would indeed have eventually killed Joffrey.  But someone else beat him to it.

Tywin probably thought Tyrion guilty but was prepared to let him live anyway simply because Tyrion was a Lannister and Joffrey a psycho.  If you want to blame him for something, blame him for that.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Otatop1000]

@ Oringinal Poster

This post feels about as trolly as all the anti-stark meme posts.  So let’s take it line by line…

Marillion deserved it.

Lysa Arryn is a Littlefinger simp who killed her own husband lied to her sister about it, just to see Jaimie and Cersei burn. Then blamed it on The Imp.

He likes the position he is in as Hand of The King.  Yes he deals with the way his Father conducts war.

Allar Deem posed a threat to all The Watch.  Whom Tyrion is respectful and abit reverent of despite his unwillingness to take The Black later, he has love and admiration for Lord Snow, and The Old Bear obvi not gonna send Slynt and his Toadie to the Wall and mess with his BOIS!

Bronn is the Devil Tyrion knows…I say no more.

Cersei needed to be removed for a time to move the pieces around the board.  Not a great loss and he could have actually poisoned her to death and didn’t.

Alayaya, he had to pretend to care deeply about, even tho I believe he felt sorry for her.  He had to pretend deeper as if Cersei had won.  He played it perfectly.  He loves Tommen nothing bad was ever gonna happen to him.

Antler Men…he cares for his own head not coward Stannis supporters.  Stannis loves to talk about “duty” but ran away the second John Arryn died where was his duty then.  When his Brother? his Leige Lord? and King needed him?  He was off getting sexual favors from the Red Woman in front of his cuck wife. (Sorry for the language there but it fits)

Slapping Shae, I’ll need to reread a clash of kings/Storm of Swords to respond I don’t recall this happening at all.  But…if she was being insolent to the man that drug her out of poverty and the long line of camp followers…know your place Shae!

Supporting Joff…he likes his head where it is…

The Singer, talk shit get hit.  Our friend and brethren Michael Corleone would have acted the same way.  And a bowl of brown feeds the people.  WIN WIN.

Sansa, Westeros isn’t modern day America.  Sansa is a lady of the realm his wife ordained by the Seven.  And if we remember ALL the characters were supposed to have been “aged” at this point in my mind the aging happened but in reverse.  Characters started out older and just never were adjusted for continuity.

Tysha, a sharp Lesson indeed…now that he knows it was orchestrated ALL the Lannister’s are in need of a sharp lesson…A Lannister always pays his DEBTS.  You best believe that this is a debt they all earned…as many silver pieces as Tysha earned that fateful afternoon, deserves to be repaid with interest.

Killing of Shae and Tywin they earned it in full.  They both knew he was innocent and yet and yet, now Tyrion will show you another good trick that he knows.

Here you speak of him wishing and dreaming of hurting Cersei, blah blah blah, she twisted his tiny baby penis for nothing more than being born. Everything else she did is icing on the cake…NEXT!

Here you speak of services he bought and used not really sure how it’s rape…but you keep believing that whores want to service their Johns…also keep believing in Santa.

The text explicitly says he doesn’t want to use any of Illyrios women.  He just wants to drink and die.  So get off this rape play.

Jon Con has the Grey Plague and isn’t saying it to anyone.  He risks everyone even the Blackfyre pretender he is crutching up.  The sooner Tyrion sends them to their deaths the better.

In closing Tyrion isn’t a white knight champion that Westeros wants.  He is Political schemer, dubious knave that will sacrifice everyone and everything to get what’s right done…Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died.

 

 

[Alester Florent]

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

This is absolute nonsense.  Everyone believed that Tyrion was guilty.  Because Tyrion framed himself.  He would indeed have eventually killed Joffrey.  But someone else beat him to it.

Tywin probably thought Tyrion guilty but was prepared to let him live anyway simply because Tyrion was a Lannister and Joffrey a psycho.  If you want to blame him for something, blame him for that.

Tyrion was never going to kill Joffrey and even if he did, poisoning him in the most public way possible while Joff was in the middle of humiliating him would be so utterly boneheaded that you'd have to think he was either a moron or evil behind the point of self-preservation - and while Tywin doesn't like Tyrion, he knows he isn't either.

Cersei blamed Tyrion with her usual level of rationality where both Joffrey and Tyrion are concerned, and then lined up everyone with a grudge against Tyrion to give largely circumstantial evidence against him. Tywin refused to give Tyrion a fair hearing or the chance to defend himself properly. One of the judges admitted that he himself was a leading alternative suspect. The prosecution's star witness, Shae, perjured herself while sharing Tywin's bed. Tywin was neck-deep in the perversion of justice.

It later goes to trial by combat and Tyrion loses, but all the protagonists know that's not actually a way of determining facts, just an anomaly of the legal system.

I think there is a very low chance that Tywin really thought Tyrion was guilty. He not only threw him under the bus anyway, but drove  the bus himself. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Northern Sword]

Overall, he deals with what ever is in front of him the best way he can and is essentially pragmatic about how to accomplish them.  He has a lot of Tywin in him. I don't think he is in the running as the most good or evil character. He is both, depending on the situation. I think he is kind when he can be and is fairly self aware.

[James Steller]

It isn’t part of the list, but one moment that felt really repulsive is how he reacts to the corpse of Masha Heddle when he returned to the crossroads inn. This woman, little more than a peasant, who did nothing but beg to keep trouble out of her already-perilous life, is supposed to have stopped armed noblemen from abducting Tyrion? And then when Tywin tortures and kills her out of petty vengeance, what is Tyrion’s response? He callously and condescendingly lectures her rotting body as if she had it coming and she was the cause of his troubles. What was she supposed to do, exactly? 

Edited November 4, 2023 by James Steller

[Son of Man]

Tyrion had a lot of chapters and many people assume that means he is a main character and a good guy.  Indeed Tyrion is a main character but he is not a good guy.  The 3 mains are Daenerys, Bran, and Tyrion.  Tyrion is what the author would term as a gray character.  A gray character can be a protagonists if he is a lesser evil than his adversary.  It is situational and the label is not permanent.  Tyrion is the protagonists in any fight between him and Jaime. 

[Lord Varys]

On 11/3/2023 at 2:36 AM, Alester Florent said:

As usual with these threads, the signal to noise ratio makes it hard to really get to grips with. Many of the "bad" things Tyrion did in the list above are in a Westerosi context largely value-neutral, or even things that we would cheer him for. And the list itself acknowledges this! Disposing of Allar Deem and shooting Tywin seem like things we should be cheering him for. You can't just stack up everything Tyrion's ever done and compare the lists numerically across books.

Pretty much that.

On 11/3/2023 at 2:36 AM, Alester Florent said:

Tyrion was never a "good person", but his more sympathetic qualities are less in evidence in ADwD than they had been earlier in the series, while his actions become more overtly cruel and callous and even his internal monologue seems to concern himself less with what he ought to do.

Tyrion's positive qualities up until the loss of his nose and him being framed for Joff's murder are his loyalty to his family and his (somewhat) genuine attempts to be a good and just ruler within the framework of his society where family loyalty must come first. His bad deeds usually happen in context of him being mistreated or threatened. Things get worse with him when he - correctly - feels overlooked and humiliated in the wake of the Blackwater. He did what he could to save Joff's crown and the Lannister cause but nobody in his immediate family treats him well for that.

Of course, the abuse he suffered from his (alleged) father warped him to such a degree that he is unable to empathize with Shae or put himself into her shoes, causing him to do what he does.

Mentally, Tyrion is Tywin's creature, he himself understands that even if he cannot change it (yet). It is Tywin's son who threatens Tommen, Tywin's son who has the blackmailing singer murdered, and Tywin's son who murders both Shae and Tywin himself. Tyrion acts there like he thinks Tywin would. Tywin, on the other hand, would likely never threaten to harm his nephew to defend a filthy whore, of course, but Tyrion thinks he would because Tyrion only got shit from his 'father'.

Tysha's husband is the guy who hurts Jaime.

In ADwD Tyrion is pretty much done with his family and the world. He is not sure if he wants to live ... but when he decides he wants to live, after all, he doesn't live for good reasons. He wants to use Varys and Illyrio's plans to punish his family and, presumably, the rest of Westeros, too. As he told them in the speech during his trial. Him torturing people weaker than him fall in that framework - and are part of the fact that he feels completely helpless while in Illyrio's, Connington's, and Jorah's power.

It may be that his experiences with Penny change that outlook to a point, as might his interactions with Daenerys, but if he were to become a dragonrider or an otherwise powerful general in Dany's armies I very much doubt he is going to take a positive view on his family and the Westerosi people upon his return.

Him wanting Casterly Rock isn't a positive desire, but the desire of man who wants power to punish and perhaps even destroy his family. And, of course, also the memory of his 'father'.

[SeanF]

On 11/3/2023 at 2:44 AM, Otatop1000 said:

@ Oringinal Poster

This post feels about as trolly as all the anti-stark meme posts.  So let’s take it line by line…

Marillion deserved it.

Lysa Arryn is a Littlefinger simp who killed her own husband lied to her sister about it, just to see Jaimie and Cersei burn. Then blamed it on The Imp.

He likes the position he is in as Hand of The King.  Yes he deals with the way his Father conducts war.

Allar Deem posed a threat to all The Watch.  Whom Tyrion is respectful and abit reverent of despite his unwillingness to take The Black later, he has love and admiration for Lord Snow, and The Old Bear obvi not gonna send Slynt and his Toadie to the Wall and mess with his BOIS!

Bronn is the Devil Tyrion knows…I say no more.

Cersei needed to be removed for a time to move the pieces around the board.  Not a great loss and he could have actually poisoned her to death and didn’t.

Alayaya, he had to pretend to care deeply about, even tho I believe he felt sorry for her.  He had to pretend deeper as if Cersei had won.  He played it perfectly.  He loves Tommen nothing bad was ever gonna happen to him.

Antler Men…he cares for his own head not coward Stannis supporters.  Stannis loves to talk about “duty” but ran away the second John Arryn died where was his duty then.  When his Brother? his Leige Lord? and King needed him?  He was off getting sexual favors from the Red Woman in front of his cuck wife. (Sorry for the language there but it fits)

Slapping Shae, I’ll need to reread a clash of kings/Storm of Swords to respond I don’t recall this happening at all.  But…if she was being insolent to the man that drug her out of poverty and the long line of camp followers…know your place Shae!

Supporting Joff…he likes his head where it is…

The Singer, talk shit get hit.  Our friend and brethren Michael Corleone would have acted the same way.  And a bowl of brown feeds the people.  WIN WIN.

Sansa, Westeros isn’t modern day America.  Sansa is a lady of the realm his wife ordained by the Seven.  And if we remember ALL the characters were supposed to have been “aged” at this point in my mind the aging happened but in reverse.  Characters started out older and just never were adjusted for continuity.

Tysha, a sharp Lesson indeed…now that he knows it was orchestrated ALL the Lannister’s are in need of a sharp lesson…A Lannister always pays his DEBTS.  You best believe that this is a debt they all earned…as many silver pieces as Tysha earned that fateful afternoon, deserves to be repaid with interest.

Killing of Shae and Tywin they earned it in full.  They both knew he was innocent and yet and yet, now Tyrion will show you another good trick that he knows.

Here you speak of him wishing and dreaming of hurting Cersei, blah blah blah, she twisted his tiny baby penis for nothing more than being born. Everything else she did is icing on the cake…NEXT!

Here you speak of services he bought and used not really sure how it’s rape…but you keep believing that whores want to service their Johns…also keep believing in Santa.

The text explicitly says he doesn’t want to use any of Illyrios women.  He just wants to drink and die.  So get off this rape play.

Jon Con has the Grey Plague and isn’t saying it to anyone.  He risks everyone even the Blackfyre pretender he is crutching up.  The sooner Tyrion sends them to their deaths the better.

In closing Tyrion isn’t a white knight champion that Westeros wants.  He is Political schemer, dubious knave that will sacrifice everyone and everything to get what’s right done…Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died.

 

 

Rape of a slave is still rape.  The scene with the slave girl at Selhorys is sickening.

Edited November 4, 2023 by SeanF

[Gilbert Green]

On 11/3/2023 at 5:54 AM, Alester Florent said:

Tyrion was never going to kill Joffrey and even if he did, poisoning him in the most public way possible while Joff was in the middle of humiliating him would be so utterly boneheaded that you'd have to think he was either a moron or evil behind the point of self-preservation - and while Tywin doesn't like Tyrion, he knows he isn't either.

Cersei blamed Tyrion with her usual level of rationality where both Joffrey and Tyrion are concerned, and then lined up everyone with a grudge against Tyrion to give largely circumstantial evidence against him. Tywin refused to give Tyrion a fair hearing or the chance to defend himself properly. One of the judges admitted that he himself was a leading alternative suspect. The prosecution's star witness, Shae, perjured herself while sharing Tywin's bed. Tywin was neck-deep in the perversion of justice.

It later goes to trial by combat and Tyrion loses, but all the protagonists know that's not actually a way of determining facts, just an anomaly of the legal system.

I think there is a very low chance that Tywin really thought Tyrion was guilty. He not only threw him under the bus anyway, but drove  the bus himself. 

None of this makes any sense to me.

Tyrion was never going to kill Joffrey??  Why the hell not??  Does Tyrion only kill nice people but never evil people??  He was plotting the death of Myrcella.  When Illyrio pointed this out, Tyrion, in his own thoughts, admitted he was knowingly doing this.

Tyrion thinks Joffrey would make a worse King than Aerys.   Is he a fan of mad murderous kings?  The only reason he had not made an attempt on his life yet is that there were still a few years to go before he achieved power.

Tyrion was caught pouring out the poison cup to cover up the evidence.  To cover up for whom?  Sansa?  I would not blame him if he did, mind you, but if his defense is justification, he cannot claim innocence on any other ground.  Pouring out the cup to protect the murderer makes him an accessory after the fact, or makes him look a hell of a lot like one.

Tyrion stole poisons from Pycelle.  If these were not for Joffrey, they can hardly have been for anyone any worse than Joffrey. 

Cersei may be crazy for alot of reasons but not for this.  The reason she thought Tyrion guilty is because he looked damned guilty.

Of course Tywin thought Tyrion at least probably guilty.  What was the proof of his innocence?  His denials?  Tywin was probably thinking if that someone else did not take out Joffrey he was going to have to do it himself.  He was probably secretly grateful to Tyrion for doing it for him.  If you want to blame Tywin, blame him for that.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

None of this makes any sense to me.

Tyrion was never going to kill Joffrey??  Why the hell not??  Does Tyrion only kill nice people but never evil people??  He was plotting the death of Myrcella.  When Illyrio pointed this out, Tyrion, in his own thoughts, admitted he was knowingly doing this.

This is in ADwD, after Tyrion has sworn revenge on his entire family. It's not representative of his thoughts while he's in King's Landing.

Quote

Tyrion thinks Joffrey would make a worse King than Aerys.   Is he a fan of mad murderous kings?  The only reason he had not made an attempt on his life yet is that there were still a few years to go before he achieved power.

Tyrion isn't a fan of mad murderous kings. Few people are. Even fewer people, vanishingly few, take it into their own hands to kill them for it. And those who do are not thanked for their actions, even where the king isn't a member of their family. Tyrion isn't a philanthropist. He's not going to kill Joff just because he thinks he'll be a bad king.

The only reason Tyrion would kill Joffrey is out of self-preservation. But Tyrion believes he's safe so long as Tywin's around, and he hopes that by the time Tywin is gone, either he will have given Joff the "harsh lessons" needed to turn him into a better king, or Tyrion will have been able to establish himself in such a position that Joffrey can't just kill him on a whim (ideally, lord of Casterly Rock).

And Tywin knows Tyrion well enough to know that whatever his faults, he's not an idiot. He will understand Tyrion's reasoning above because it's the same way he would think. And if Tyrion is going to kill Joffrey, he'll do it in such a way that can't easily be traced back to him. The way Joffrey died, if we assume it was Tyrion, it was like Tyrion wanted to get caught. He didn't even make an attempt to escape. What was the actual point in killing Joffrey? There was nothing pragmatic in it, because whatever security Tyrion gained from Joff's death is immediately outweighed by the accusation of treason and murder. Sansa had already made her getaway, so sacrificing himself to cover for her doesn't make sense either, even if that's something Tyrion would realistically do, which it isn't. Tywin knows, or certainly should know, better than to think Tyrion would do something so stupid and contrary to his own self-interest.

I'll turn this round. What evidence do we, the readers, who have seen multiple Tyrion POVs, have that Tyrion ever had any intention of killing or even really harming Joffrey?

Quote

Tyrion was caught pouring out the poison cup to cover up the evidence.  To cover up for whom?  Sansa?  I would not blame him if he did, mind you, but if his defense is justification, he cannot claim innocence on any other ground.  Pouring out the cup to protect the murderer makes him an accessory after the fact, or makes him look a hell of a lot like one.

I got the impression he was pouring out the cup in confusion trying to work out what was going on and whether there was anything in the cup that might give a clue. Indeed, if the stone Olenna put in there hadn't completely dissolved, this would have immediately revealed the poison, so it wasn't even a terrible idea. He was as bewildered as anyone else.

Quote

Tyrion stole poisons from Pycelle.  If these were not for Joffrey, they can hardly have been for anyone any worse than Joffrey. 

Weren't these for Cersei? Besides, Tyrion has a lot of enemies.

The evidence is all circumstantial, as I say. If Tywin troubled himself to listen to Tyrion's explanations, he would probably be persuaded that Tyrion wasn't guilty. That he didn't was (a) because he doesn't like Tyrion and (b) because in his own mind he's trying to compartmentalise and thinks it'll be easier to sentence his son to death if he doesn't allow himself to consider the possibility he's innocent.

We don't know enough about the Westerosi legal system to know whether "innocent until proven guilty" is the default standard (it probably isn't) but when it's your own child in the dock, surely that's the standard you adopt in terms of the way you approach it? You look for proof of guilt and until you have it, you assume they're innocent. And even if you think your child is guilty, if you're a man of basically no principle and minimal regard for the law, you try to find some other patsy to pin it on. And Tywin isn't a regular parent working against the system. He is the system. He is in full control of the process of trial and he not only does nothing to help Tyrion, he enables the rigging of that trial against him.

Can you imagine if Jaime were accused of such a thing under the same circumstances that Tywin would allow that judicial process, or wouldn't privately meet with Jaime to try to establish the truth? Of course not.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Gilbert Green]

52 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

This is in ADwD, after Tyrion has sworn revenge on his entire family. It's not representative of his thoughts while he's in King's Landing.

He's been fantasizing about murdering his entire family since Book 1.   You can say they deserve it, but that does not extend to Myrcella.  Yes, he has become even more murderous since Daddy took away his toys.  But if you can justify his plot involving Myrcella, you can justify just about anything

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Tyrion isn't a fan of mad murderous kings. Few people are. Even fewer people, vanishingly few, take it into their own hands to kill them for it. And those who do are not thanked for their actions, even where the king isn't a member of their family. Tyrion isn't a philanthropist. He's not going to kill Joff just because he thinks he'll be a bad king.

The only reason Tyrion would kill Joffrey is out of self-preservation.

Sounds like a powerful motive to me.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

But Tyrion believes he's safe so long as Tywin's around, and he hopes that by the time Tywin is gone, either he will have given Joff the "harsh lessons" needed to turn him into a better king, or Tyrion will have been able to establish himself in such a position that Joffrey can't just kill him on a whim (ideally, lord of Casterly Rock).

Tyrion does not think he is safe.  He thinks he is playing the game of thrones.  That you either win or die.  And as for his precise thoughts, Tywin does not know them because he is not a mind reader. 

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

And Tywin knows Tyrion well enough to know that whatever his faults, he's not an idiot. He will understand Tyrion's reasoning above because it's the same way he would think. And if Tyrion is going to kill Joffrey, he'll do it in such a way that can't easily be traced back to him.

Seems you can't lose this argument.  Any evidence against Tyrion is proof - not merely that he is innocent -- but that Tywin knows he is innocent.  And, of course, it there is no evidence against Tyrion, that leads to the same conclusion.

But maybe Tyrion is not quite the genius you take him for.  What was his clever plan when he poured out the wine.  Was being noticed part of his clever plan?  Or was he hoping no-one would notice?

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I got the impression he was pouring out the cup in confusion trying to work out what was going on and whether there was anything in the cup that might give a clue.

Guilty people make mistakes under stress as well.  How does Tywin know the difference without being a mind-reader?

8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Weren't these for Cersei? Besides, Tyrion has a lot of enemies.

What difference does it make?  They are both psychos.  If he might have plotted Cersei's death, he might have plotted Joffrey's death just as easily.  Both might plausibly try to have him killed if he does not strike first.  Tywin is not a mind reader.