Israel - Hamas war VIII

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

But who was there before them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiran

And before them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousterian

And before them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheulean

And before them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldowan

So, by this metric that X group is the only native group because they were there first, the land belongs to the Oldowan culture, since they were there ~1.5 million years ago.

 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

Posting "we're all really African" bullshit as some kind of own against the indigeneity of Jews to Israel/Palestine is one hell of an imperialist colonizer argument, especially coming from imperialist Christian and Muslim cultures that were responsible for making Jews an oppressed minority in their indigenous homeland.

And yet, it is true, like it or not. And accusing everyone who has a different opinion of antisemitism stifles the conversation imo.

[Craving Peaches]

29 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No matter how far back in time you look

I don't think that is true, looking at the evidence.

Quote

From a prehistory as part of the critical Levantine corridor, which witnessed waves of early humans out of Africa, to the emergence of Natufian culture c. 10th millennium BCE, the region entered the Bronze Age c. 2,000 BCE with the development of Canaanite civilization, before being vassalized by Egypt in the Late Bronze Age. In the Iron Age, the kingdoms of Israel and Judah were established...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

Quote

The earliest recorded evidence of a people by the name of Israel (as ysrỉꜣr) occurs in the Egyptian Merneptah Stele, erected for Pharaoh Merneptah (son of Ramesses II) c. 1209 BCE, which states "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not."[26]

Quote

Archeological evidence indicates that during the early Iron Age I, hundreds of small villages were established on the highlands of Canaan on both sides of the Jordan River, primarily in Samaria, north of Jerusalem.

So there were at least several other people there first before the Jews settled in the area. And they weren't present before ~1209 BCE, according to the archaeology.

There's always someone who was there before. I don't think this should massively affect whether a group is considered indigenous or not, or no one would be indigenous to anywhere.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And yet, it is true, like it or not. And accusing everyone who has a different opinion of antisemitism stifles the conversation imo.

Also, I don't think anyone is trying to argue the Jews aren't indigenous, just that the Palestinians are also indigenous. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Bael's Bastard]

Depicting Jews as colonizers, as has been done through these threads, is absolutely a denial of their indigeneity and an attempt to falsely depict Palestinians are "more indigenous."

[Craving Peaches]

51 reported dead in another strike on a refugee camp.

[Varysblackfyre321]

40 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Jews are indigenous to the land

eh who isn’t indigenous somewhere at some point in time.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Depicting Jews as colonizers, as has been done through these threads, is absolutely a denial of their indigeneity and an attempt to falsely depict Palestinians are "more indigenous."

I feel ya, but at the same time Netanyahu specifically referred to the practice and behavior in the west Bank as being a colonizer. 

My personal view is that talking about all the history is distracting, kind of lame and doesn't help much either. Both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate, long term grievances and claims to where they live. More importantly both live there right now. Any discussion of who should and shouldn't live there has the base implication that ethnic cleansing is a reasonable solution.

Both peoples should have a country. Both should have self-determination. Both should have some notion that they will not be in war forever. The history might be worth studying to see how difficult the road ahead is, but it mostly just doesn't matter aside from crafting arguments.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Palestinians are "more indigenous."

Do you think they’re less or about?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, I don't think anyone is trying to argue the Jews aren't indigenous, just that the Palestinians are also indigenous. 

Posters saying Jews should have found somewhere else to try and create a state pretty much says as much and again, glosses over how Jews in the region after WW2 did try to make a good faith effort to create something more workable while Palestinians and surrounding Arab states did not and immediately called for their destruction right after the Holocaust happened. When you look at it through that lens how could you not expect them to be incredibly defensive, especially when the conflict has never been resolved.

Just for example, the Hamas representative linked in the last thread did another interview recently with NBC and said the hostages are fair negotiating chips, a ceasefire must happen before their release can even be discussed and Hamas has every right to keep attacking Israel while they can't attack back. 

At some point you have to recognize the situation is a heads you win, tails I lose scenario. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

51 reported dead in another strike on a refugee camp.

Oh did this time at least have people actually allegedly firing from the camp or is the new normal israel gets to commit we crimes, murder dozens of People, to get someone who wasn’t actively doing something that can maybe endanger an Israeli?

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Posters saying Jews should have found somewhere else to try and create a state

Who said this? I didn't see any. Have I overlooked something?

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh did this time at least have people actually allegedly firing from the camp or is the new normal israel gets to commit we crimes, murder dozens of People, to get someone who wasn’t actively doing something that can maybe endanger an Israeli?

I don't know. Israel has not said anything yet. Report said most of the dead were women and children. Even if there were one or two Hamas fighters in the mix, I don't think it justifies dozens of civilian deaths. It is disproportionate.

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Posters saying Jews should have found somewhere else to try and create a state pretty much says as much and again, glosses over how Jews in the region after WW2 did try to make a good faith effort to create something more workable while Palestinians and surrounding Arab states did not and immediately called for their destruction right after the Holocaust happened. When you look at it through that lens how could you not expect them to be incredibly defensive, especially when the conflict has never been resolved.

Just for example, the Hamas representative linked in the last thread did another interview recently with NBC and said the hostages are fair negotiating chips, a ceasefire must happen before their release can even be discussed and Hamas has every right to keep attacking Israel while they can't attack back. 

At some point you have to recognize the situation is a heads you win, tails I lose scenario. 

Yeah, these guys really seem to have been making a good faith effort to create something more workable. Bear in mind Deir Yassin took place in April 1948, a month prior to Israel being given statehood.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Who said this? I didn't see any. Have I overlooked something?

Yes, a few have. However, it's easy to overlook a lot as the threads are moving fast and typically people are more acutely aware of slights like this when it's against their ethnic group. 

21 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Yeah, these guys really seem to have been making a good faith effort to create something more workable. Bear in mind Deir Yassin took place in April 1948, a month prior to Israel being given statehood.

 

You'll always find someone in the Israel-Palestine argument that can confirm your bias. Doesn't change the fact historically it's been the Arab/Palestinian side that's made peace more difficult and Oct 7th probably killed any hope of a two state solution for now. 

[Craving Peaches]

The UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in Palestine has said in a tweet that under international law, Israel's actions in Gaza cannot qualify as self-defence. This is the video she shared in the tweet.

https://youtu.be/HdYiOZKCVl4?si=I3X8-x6YzPIlGhCW

The crucial point seems to be that Gaza is an occupied territory and Israel controls it, so the right does not apply. I believe this was alluded to in a previous thread. This does not mean that they cannot repel attacks, but the force used must be proportionate, which it is not according to the academic being interviewed.

[Altherion]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The crucial point seems to be that Gaza is an occupied territory and Israel controls it

Say what now? This is clearly not true; Israel has not occupied Gaza since 2005.

[Werthead]

12 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Say what now? This is clearly not true; Israel has not occupied Gaza since 2005.

I do feel this argument is somewhat semantic.

Israel has not had boots on the ground inside Gaza since 2005, but it controls all but one access point to the Gaza Strip (that access point is controlled by what was effectively Israel's close ally under Israeli supervision), it controls Gaza's airspace and coastal waters, it tightly controls what people and supplies can go in and out and for what purpose, and it has the entire area under its military control and within range of its weapons at all times.

Sure, Israel has not particularly engaged in Gaza's internal affairs (particularly political), although you could argue that the siege mentality and situation contributed to the shift in favour of extremists inside the Strip. But Israel effectively controls all access to the territory and has effectively besieged it (with some limitations for necessary supplies) for more than a decade and a half.

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

Yeah, these guys really seem to have been making a good faith effort to create something more workable. Bear in mind Deir Yassin took place in April 1948, a month prior to Israel being given statehood.

 

just for some context, in the 1980's the IDF created a ribbon, the Lehi Ribbon, for members of Lehi. An "award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel" Lehi being the one of the two groups that carried out this massacre.

Lehi also tried to ally with the Nazis against Britain. Former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir was a member, he planned the assassination of Lord Moyne, many members of Lehi joined the IDF, and the "oldest IDF reservist" Ezra Yachin who Israel was parading around for a while is accused of participating in this massacre.

Like this attack wasn't some unexpected thing from some totally rogue element, it was planned to cause fear in the Arab population by specifically attacking a friendly Arab village and approved by the Haganah who would go on to become the IDF.

Like I said last thread when I posted that video. A deeply and deliberately fucked up system.

Edited November 5, 2023 by TrueMetis

[karaddin]

28 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

change the fact historically it's been the Arab/Palestinian side that's made peace more difficult

The problem with trying to make lasting peace in scenarios like this is that it only takes a relatively small number of bad actors to derail attempts to improve the situation. In this respect the attack on Oct 7 is a bit of an outlier in terms of having larger numbers involved than would typically be the case, although I guess I wouldn't say that things were on a particularly improving trajectory beforehand for anything to be "derailed". Even counting all of Hamas that's still only 1-2% of the population though, and they've sure gone and fucked things up.

----- Not a reply to Tywin below

I have no idea why the argument about recent history is going on though, surely you can both hold that the existence of a safe homeland for Jews is a good thing that needs to continue, but also that bad things happened in the creation of its modern version which had some Palestinians suffering injustice? Plenty of that blame for that is going to lie with the nations that declared war on Israel and attacked it, leading to the current borders. It doesn't actually matter which of the other actors holds what proportion of the blame, just that it leaves us with the situation we are now in.

I saw a video circulating last night claimed to be Al-Azhar University getting absolutely levelled by IDF bombs, but I haven't seen any Western media outlets reporting on it. I did see that there was a University bombed 3 weeks ago, but what little I watched of that looked like it was a different university but perhaps it's just a different video from the opposite angle. Does anyone know if that was actually a separate uni being destroyed or if it's the same one with the footage recycled?

[Altherion]

22 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I do feel this argument is somewhat semantic.

Israel has not had boots on the ground inside Gaza since 2005, but it controls all but one access point to the Gaza Strip (that access point is controlled by what was effectively Israel's close ally under Israeli supervision), it controls Gaza's airspace and coastal waters, it tightly controls what people and supplies can go in and out and for what purpose, and it has the entire area under its military control and within range of its weapons at all times.

Sure, Israel has not particularly engaged in Gaza's internal affairs (particularly political), although you could argue that the siege mentality and situation contributed to the shift in favour of extremists inside the Strip. But Israel effectively controls all access to the territory and has effectively besieged it (with some limitations for necessary supplies) for more than a decade and a half.

Controlling access to a territory (which Israel does only to a limited extent or Hamas would not have so many rockets and other weapons) is not at all the same as an occupation.