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Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

according to the letter sent to Jon at Castle Black, King Stannis Baratheon is allegedly dead and Ramsay urges Jon to send him Arya Stark 'Jeyne Poole' and Reek 'Theon Greyjoy', however In Theon I chapter of The Winds of Winter we read that Theon is held captive by Stannis and Jeyne is sent to The Wall accompanied by Tycho Nestoris and Justin Massey. Stannis is urged to execute Theon by his northern allies and Asha demands that Stannis behead Theon as Lord Eddard Stark would have done, before a Weirwood Tree. So from the letter we can learn that Theon was not with Stannis when his army was defeated. If so Theon might have escaped or sent to another place before the battle and this might have led to Stannis's northern allies' wrath and a dismay in the battle lines and finally, defeat. Or perhaps Ramsay simply lied to lure Jon away from The Wall for some purpose. 

It is less likely that Stannis would have freed Theon or let it happen due to his character and the situation of his alliances. what are your impressions to this letter and the true thing happened In The Ice? 

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

ADwD Jon XIII happens after TWoW Theon I.

Exactly because of this it is weird that Ramsay didn't find Theon with Stannis and is looking for him according to the letter.

So what has happened to Theon? not dead probably because that way Ramsay would have found it out. 

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Just now, TheKnightOfTheNorth said:

Exactly because of this it is weird that Ramsay didn't find Theon with Stannis and is looking for him according to the letter.

So what has happened to Theon? not dead probably because that way Ramsay would have found it out. 

You’re assuming Ramsay didn’t lie and you’re also assuming he wasn’t deceived himself. 

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I don't know what was the bigger cliffhanger, stabbed up Jon or that damned pink letter. I think that Theon is actually one of the authors... hey @kissedbyfire I really like your 'Theon will willingly submit to Bran' idea. Do you think that the timetable would allow for Bran to have offered any input into the letter? Stannis looks ready to off Theon's head and if Asha's word carries anything with Stannis he might well take him to that old heart tree in the middle of the lake they're looking to trap Ramsay in to do it.  It would be an opportune time for Bran to emerge as well as possibly explain some of the aspects of the letter which may have been beyond Theon without needlessly bringing in an Umber (forget which) or a move to the Dreadfort or some of the other ideas people have come up with to explain some of the discrepancies.

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1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I don't know what was the bigger cliffhanger, stabbed up Jon or that damned pink letter. I think that Theon is actually one of the authors... hey @kissedbyfire I really like your 'Theon will willingly submit to Bran' idea. Do you think that the timetable would allow for Bran to have offered any input into the letter? Stannis looks ready to off Theon's head and if Asha's word carries anything with Stannis he might well take him to that old heart tree in the middle of the lake they're looking to trap Ramsay in to do it.  It would be an opportune time for Bran to emerge as well as possibly explain some of the aspects of the letter which may have been beyond Theon without needlessly bringing in an Umber (forget which) or a move to the Dreadfort or some of the other ideas people have come up with to explain some of the discrepancies.

Almost didn’t see this, you tagged someone else! :P

No, I don’t think Bran had anything to do w/ the letter, but I’m one of those boring af people who think Ramsay did write the letter. 
The letter has “mysteries” in it but imo its authorship is not one of them. I do think the tricky part is deciphering what is actual fact, what is deliberate lie, what is unwitting misinformation. 
As to Asha telling Stannis to chop off Theon’s head instead of burning him, yeah, my guess is she’s doing it to try to spare him the hideous pain of immolation but it works really well as a means to get Theon near the weirwood and well, you know the rest. 

ETA: sorry, realised I didn't answer the question. The timeline works, meaning, the timeline would allow for Bran to have "contributed" in writing the PL, I don't think he did though. 

Edited by kissdbyfire
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16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Almost didn’t see this, you tagged someone else! :P

oops. Glad you found it.

 

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, I don’t think Bran had anything to do w/ the letter, but I’m one of those boring af people who think Ramsay did write the letter. 

Fair enough. 

 

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The timeline works, meaning, the timeline would allow for Bran to have "contributed" in writing the PL, I don't think he did though. 

Cool. 

Pink letter is so dense. I feel like I got to sit down for an afternoon and do a lot of rereading before I'm ready to get too into discussions about it.  Next time I feel I have to do that though, I'll be doing it with a Bran/ Theon connection in mind.

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Mel, I guess, wrote the Pink Letter.   It is a mixture of things she knows directly, things she has seen in her visions, and things she thinks Jon will believe.  The goal, ironically, is to make him trust her, so he will say "gosh, Mel was right", and take seriously her "knives in the dark" warnings.  And it seems to work, as he does seem to say, in effect, "gosh Mel was right."

One would expect him to then consult with Mel to prevent the knives in the dark, as she told him to do.  But if that occurred, it occurred offscreen.

But if you reread the chapter, there is indeed a gap in the narrative, where Jon gets together with Tormund (and maybe Mel?) and does and plans unknown things.

What happens offscreen, I guess, is a plot to allow the "knives in the dark" prophesy to be fulfilled without actually killing Jon.

The ingredients of the plot are, I guess:  Mel's glamor abilities, Jon's warging abilities, and a feebleminded Stark relative in the Ice Cells.

I guess Jon Snow was inside Cregan Karstark when the knives struck.  Thus was Mel's prophesy both fulfilled and evaded.

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6 hours ago, Loraq said:

I think Ramsay was deceived by someone.

I’m certain he was, but not everything in the letter is the result of Ramsay being deceived. I think the letter has some truth, some stuff that Ramsay believes to be true because he was deceived, and blatant lies. The mystery of the letter is not who wrote it, but separating what is true, what is false, and what is the result of Ramsay being deceived. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/6/2023 at 1:39 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I don't know what was the bigger cliffhanger, stabbed up Jon or that damned pink letter. I think that Theon is actually one of the authors... hey @kissedbyfire I really like your 'Theon will willingly submit to Bran' idea. Do you think that the timetable would allow for Bran to have offered any input into the letter? Stannis looks ready to off Theon's head and if Asha's word carries anything with Stannis he might well take him to that old heart tree in the middle of the lake they're looking to trap Ramsay in to do it.  It would be an opportune time for Bran to emerge as well as possibly explain some of the aspects of the letter which may have been beyond Theon without needlessly bringing in an Umber (forget which) or a move to the Dreadfort or some of the other ideas people have come up with to explain some of the discrepancies.

I support the idea that Bran has something to do with the letter due to the following reason

Quote

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

at the end of the letter, Ramsay is called trueborn lord of Winterfell which is quite peculiar because Ramsay is a legitimated bastard and he is the lord of Winterfell not by birth right but through his alleged marriage to ''Arya Stark''. To just say so it might be a mockery and Ramsay is not a man to bear being mocked so why should he use the term 'Trueborn'. it could be possible that Bran (Trueborn lord of Winterfell) wanted to send a warning to Jon (as he knows truths by that time), writing this statement as a sign for Jon to know him.

and he knows the terms and facts that are mentioned in the letter (as other possible authors do not. for example Melisandre who could not possibly know anything about the term Reek) he could see the marriage at Winterfell, Theon amongst Stannis's army (Which itself needs to be discussed), the escape of Jeyne Poole and about Mance and the spearwives. 

the author should be either Ramsay or someone who knows Ramsay quite well, and who can watch Ramsay's whole life and his character. (perhaps Theon. so at some extents I agree with @aejohn-the-conqueroo)

but why didn't Bran just reveal his identity instead of hiding behind Ramsay's?

If Bran has nothing to do with the letter, only Ramsay himself can be the author.

in that case I think that again Bran has something to do with Ramsay being deceived for who else can? Bran can indeed lead Ramsay astray having the ability to warn Stannis by the weirwoods or even deceive Ramsay that way. (My personal impression is that Bran somehow told Ramsay that his Reek and his Bride fled to the wall so he marched towards the wall to face Jon not Stannis so he might have lied about the battle and there will be an opportunity for Stannis to either attack Ramsay's rear or march on Winterfell)

I believe that the part about the battle is a lie because seven days of battle according to the conditions are not quite likely.

yet there are plenty of possibilities that make the matter more complicated and our key to the truth is Bran.

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On 12/13/2023 at 7:53 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Either Mance has been caught and his spearwives skinned and murdered, or somebody is lying.  Who, other than Jon Snow, knows about Mance and his 6 spearwives?  Melisandre, that's who.  The same person who knew that a letter was coming, because she told Jon to watch the skies.

Melisandre couldn't possibly know about Reek not even through her flames.

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3 hours ago, TheKnightOfTheNorth said:

To just say so it might be a mockery and Ramsay is not a man to bear being mocked so why should he use the term 'Trueborn'. it could be possible that Bran (Trueborn lord of Winterfell) wanted to send a warning to Jon (as he knows truths by that time), writing this statement as a sign for Jon to know him.

I like the idea that that 'Trueborn' sobriquet is Bran announcing himself. I'm just not sure how functional it would be for anyone other than a reader. It doesn't make sense that Ramsay would write it though for the reasons you've already stated.

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On 1/3/2024 at 8:31 AM, TheKnightOfTheNorth said:

I support the idea that Bran has something to do with the letter due to the following reason

at the end of the letter, Ramsay is called trueborn lord of Winterfell which is quite peculiar because Ramsay is a legitimated bastard and he is the lord of Winterfell not by birth right but through his alleged marriage to ''Arya Stark''. To just say so it might be a mockery and Ramsay is not a man to bear being mocked so why should he use the term 'Trueborn'. it could be possible that Bran (Trueborn lord of Winterfell) wanted to send a warning to Jon (as he knows truths by that time), writing this statement as a sign for Jon to know him.

and he knows the terms and facts that are mentioned in the letter (as other possible authors do not. for example Melisandre who could not possibly know anything about the term Reek) he could see the marriage at Winterfell, Theon amongst Stannis's army (Which itself needs to be discussed), the escape of Jeyne Poole and about Mance and the spearwives. 

the author should be either Ramsay or someone who knows Ramsay quite well, and who can watch Ramsay's whole life and his character. (perhaps Theon. so at some extents I agree with @aejohn-the-conqueroo)

but why didn't Bran just reveal his identity instead of hiding behind Ramsay's?

If Bran has nothing to do with the letter, only Ramsay himself can be the author.

in that case I think that again Bran has something to do with Ramsay being deceived for who else can? Bran can indeed lead Ramsay astray having the ability to warn Stannis by the weirwoods or even deceive Ramsay that way. (My personal impression is that Bran somehow told Ramsay that his Reek and his Bride fled to the wall so he marched towards the wall to face Jon not Stannis so he might have lied about the battle and there will be an opportunity for Stannis to either attack Ramsay's rear or march on Winterfell)

I believe that the part about the battle is a lie because seven days of battle according to the conditions are not quite likely.

yet there are plenty of possibilities that make the matter more complicated and our key to the truth is Bran.

I disagree w/ the way you’re looking at the usage of “trueborn” in the letter. I think it’s exactly how Ramsay would sign, and it ties in perfectly with the “bastard” he keeps throwing at Jon. Ramsay couldn’t stand being reminded of his bastard status, it enraged him more than anything else. And there are two points here that connect to this - and it all makes perfect sense. 
1. Ramsay’s hated so much being called a bastard that it makes sense for him to think Jon would feel the same way. Deep down, most people are very unimaginative and tend to think that others are like them and react like them. 
2. Because he hated being called a bastard so much, it makes sense that he now uses “trueborn” as if that would put as much distance as possible between him and his bastardy. 
Bran didn’t write the PL, Ramsay did. 

Edited by kissdbyfire
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The only thing I´m sure about the pink letter is it can´t be trusted.

It must have been written by someone who knew about Stannis, Theon and fAryas escape.

The letter also mentions Arya, but not by name, it says "my bride". Which leads me to believe the author of the letter knows she is not the real deal.

Now at first glance there are two people who´d know, Ramsey and Theon.

But then I remembered the chapter of Ramsey and fAryas wedding, and Lord Manderly. He´s a character who didn´t play a prominent role before, but did during the wedding. And he used the same wording:

Quote

It was true. The Lord of White Harbor was the very picture of the jolly fat man, laughing and smiling, japing with the other lords and slapping them on the back, calling out to the musicians for this tune or that tune. "Give us 'The Night That Ended,' singer," he bellowed. "The bride will like that one, I know. Or sing to us of brave young Danny Flint and make us weep." To look at him, you would have thought that he was the one newly wed.

We also know from early chapters (that I couldn´t find on the search, sorry) that Arya accompanied her father on several trips to White Harbour, so Manderly likely realized fArya as what she is.

So, I´m throwing Wyman Manderly in as author, to get Jon taking up arms against the Boltons. I know it´s a far shot, but it feels just right.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/2/2024 at 9:02 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

100% this.

Illustrating how badly the hope for TWoW seems to have died in here: this two-word post that could just as effectively have conveyed its message by reacting to the post to which it responded instead of quoting it, was the only post in the TWoW forum made in the past month.

Oh well, at least there's a milestone coming up soon. On March 16, 2024, the wait between books 5 and 6 of this saga will officially have been longer than the wait between books 2 and 5.

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