Daenerys, Targaryen Glory, And Dragons

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

The Targaryen rule of Westeros has been mostly peaceful and marked by long periods of peace and stability.  The reign of the dragons were very beneficial for the people of Westeros.  The Targaryen rulers were mostly capable.  They were neutral in the way they treated and judged their vassals.  The power they had over their dragons also made sure to keep ambitious potential challengers from rebellion.  The lessons they brought from Valyria were taught to the generations and that included skill at politics.

The Baratheons were failures because were unskilled political players and were not good managers of a kingdom.  The very short Baratheon reign led to economic chaos and to the most destructive war in the history of Westeros.  The Hands, Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, were capable managers of their own kingdoms but were not skillful enough to govern something the size of Westeros.  It was not a good call on Jon Arryn to pick Cersei for Robert to marry.  Eddard made many bad calls throughout his service to Robert. 

The Targaryens contained the Ironborn and kept them from doing the things they do.  Which are stealing, raping, and plundering.  The dragons were able to subjugate and mostly kept the Iron rulers castrated.  No other family could have kept the Ironborns beneath their thumbs.  The Iron Throne enacted rules which leveled the playing field between nobles and commons to where it has never been in the past.  Like they banned the Lord's Right to the First Night. 

Daenerys Targaryen is learning the skills she will need to govern and lead.  Just like her Azor Ahai persona was shaped and tempered to become the leader the world needed to see it through the long night.  Daenerys is being tempered like the Valyrian steel to unite the people, to rule, and to carry them through the shadow of the long night.  She is headed towards a major confrontation with the coming Stark-led darkness.

Winter and the Others are existential threats to life.  But there is another kind of evil.  The ones carried out by man.  Greed, betrayal, and cruelty.  The Greyjoys, Starks, and Lannisters are the personifications of those human faults.  It is those human weaknesses which make all vulnerable to the threat presented by the Others.  It has been shown thus far that the Starks, Baratheons, and the Lannisters are incapable of uniting all the people of Westeros.  Only the Targaryens have been able to do that.  And only Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons can rebuild the Westeros that the Baratheons and the Lannisters have broken.  She will need time to hone and temper her skills in Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki Sea before she goes to Westeros to claim it.  She will win the support of Benerro who will identify her as the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and the heir to the territories which once were part of Valyria.  Many of the slaves she rescued from bondage will join her military forces and play their part in rebuilding Westeros and saving all from the Others.  Westeros and parts of Essos will become one and an Empire. 

 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Tywin and Ned were not honest brokers. Tywin planned to install Tyrion to rule the North through a child with Sansa. Ned was prejudiced against the Lannisters. The Targaryens were good mediators who also had their Dragons to back their decisions. Yeah so Westeros was in better hands under the Targaryens.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Something stupid. Something stupid. Something even stupider than that. Targaryens are the best!

[Craving Peaches]

11 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The power they had over their dragons also made sure to keep ambitious potential challengers from rebellion. 

Except it didn't. Targaryen rule oversaw perhaps the most destructive civil war in the history of Westeros. 

11 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The lessons they brought from Valyria were taught to the generations and that included skill at politics.

That's just totally made up. Also, they can't have been that good at Valyrian politics given they were a relatively minor house.

11 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The Targaryens contained the Ironborn and kept them from doing the things they do. 

No they didn't since the Ironborn rebel and start doing the things they do during the reign of the Targaryens.

11 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

No other family could have kept the Ironborns beneath their thumbs

Except they have. Robert beat the Ironborn and they just had to deal with it so long as he was alive.

11 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Only the Targaryens have been able to do that.

It was not the Targaryens, it was the dragons. I daresay most people with a cheat code weapon could coerce others into following them.

11 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Westeros and parts of Essos will become one and an Empire. 

Impossible due to logistical constraints.

[Gilbert Green]

"Conquer the World to Save the World" is one of the lies taught by the Many-Faced God of Death, whose true goal, of course, is the destruction of humanity.  And one of his faces is fire.

[Darth Sidious]

We are down to the last two books of the story and it is obvious that the only family to successfully unite the continent are the Targaryens. Robert got his chance and blew it. The Baratheons and their dogs could not even carry out one succession. Robert was too inept to see what Jaime and Cersei were doing to him. Arryn should have seen it but he was an old man. Ned was no better.  Robb, Renly, Jaime, Cersei, Balon, and Jon are fools who brought chaos. Westeros will be in a desperate condition until Daenerys comes to its rescue and sorts things out. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Well this was a wild ride, lol. But I'll keep my response simple. The Targaryens, much like every lord in all of Westeros, is not good for the people. Because they play war games, and then conscript people who would otherwise just be farmers to go fight battles for them. The smallfolk are not better or worse off under the Targaryens then they were under previous rules. And they...aren't well for the most part, because feudalism treats the small folk like shit (I full expect Aldarian to now show up and yell at me, lol). 

[KingAerys_II]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well this was a wild ride, lol. But I'll keep my response simple. The Targaryens, much like every lord in all of Westeros, is not good for the people. Because they play war games, and then conscript people who would otherwise just be farmers to go fight battles for them. The smallfolk are not better or worse off under the Targaryens then they were under previous rules. And they...aren't well for the most part, because feudalism treats the small folk like shit (I full expect Aldarian to now show up and yell at me, lol). 

The law of six, the law of thumbs, the abolition of the first night, the King's road, the construction of wells for the smallfolk, guess who approved and did everything. 

The situation before the Conquest was very bad, the lords keep exploiting the smallfolk in the current history

[Aldarion]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:35 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well this was a wild ride, lol. But I'll keep my response simple. The Targaryens, much like every lord in all of Westeros, is not good for the people. Because they play war games, and then conscript people who would otherwise just be farmers to go fight battles for them. The smallfolk are not better or worse off under the Targaryens then they were under previous rules. And they...aren't well for the most part, because feudalism treats the small folk like shit (I full expect Aldarian to now show up and yell at me, lol). 

I actually won't "yell at you", because regardless of how accurate or inaccurate it historically was, it is a fact that Westerosi feudalism treats smallfolk like shit (historically, "feudalism" was simply too complex and diverse of a system to make a blanket statement in either direction). Hell, the category of "smallfolk" is literally a copy of the definition of "Third Estate" as seen in the 17th/18th French absolutist monarchy... and we all know how that ended.

That being said, I will note that Westerosi armies are in fact fairly professional. If peasants are "conscripted", they are not really expected to fight, at least not until actual soldiers start taking casualties. Though they likely are conscripted to carry out miscellaneous non-combat related tasks, such as caring for the horses, handling pack animals and so on.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

I actually won't "yell at you", because regardless of how accurate or inaccurate it historically was, it is a fact that Westerosi feudalism treats smallfolk like shit (historically, "feudalism" was simply too complex and diverse of a system to make a blanket statement in either direction). Hell, the category of "smallfolk" is literally a copy of the definition of "Third Estate" as seen in the 17th/18th French absolutist monarchy... and we all know how that ended.

That being said, I will note that Westerosi armies are in fact fairly professional. If peasants are "conscripted", they are not really expected to fight, at least not until actual soldiers start taking casualties. Though they likely are conscripted to carry out miscellaneous non-combat related tasks, such as caring for the horses, handling pack animals and so on.

IMHO, they are conscripted, but mostly from people who are familiar with the use of weapons, and many of whom are used to fighting in formation, for preference, the better off peasants. Although powerful lords have their own guards, and household knights, who are, pretty much, professional soldiers, I doubt if they're close to a majority of the soldiers.

A lord paramount would lead his guards and knights to war, then summon his vassals, who are well-trained, who call upon their vassals, all the way down to landed knights and gentry.  None of these is a full-time soldier, but every one of them is trained for war, and equipped accordingly.  And, all of them would bring a retinue of smallfolk, who are likely to be familiar with longbows, spears, etc., in addition to the camp followers.

 

[Aldarion]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, they are conscripted, but mostly from people who are familiar with the use of weapons, and many of whom are used to fighting in formation, for preference, the better off peasants. Although powerful lords have their own guards, and household knights, who are, pretty much, professional soldiers, I doubt if they're close to a majority of the soldiers.

 

That is not how conscription works, or at least not what is usually meant when we talk about Westerosi armies I think.

Just the fact that Westerosi infantry have mail as their primary armor shows that they cannot be conscripts, because mail is expensive - well beyond the financial means of a single peasant.

What this means is that you have to have something like Hungarian militia portalis: 

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/building-a-fantasy-army-part-5-recruitment/

Quote

It should be noted however that in some cases militias achieved character similar to that of part-time professional troops (discussed below), to the point that the two are often confused. Such was the case with Hungarian Militia Portalis. Instead of simply pulling up peasantry in arms, Sigismund’s law of 1397. (which remained in effect until 1526.) required all nobles to equip one mounted archer from each group of 20 peasant plots. Exact nature of these troops is debated; they could have been peasants or noble retainers. If they were latter, then they would have been similar to Byzantine themata and thus part-time professionals. But if they were former, then Militia Portalis is indeed what we would consider, and what I define here as, a militia (note: name militia portalis does not mean it was a “militia” in modern sense; Latin militia meant “defensive service”, but in Middle Ages it meant simply “army service”).

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A lord paramount would lead his guards and knights to war, then summon his vassals, who are well-trained, who call upon their vassals, all the way down to landed knights and gentry.  None of these is a full-time soldier, but every one of them is trained for war, and equipped accordingly.  And, all of them would bring a retinue of smallfolk, who are likely to be familiar with longbows, spears, etc., in addition to the camp followers.

 

Agreed, but as I noted: even Westerosi infantry is far better equipped than any sort of conscripts were.

So they have to be something akin to militia portalis described above.

[Aebram]

Before the Conquest, Westeros was divided into seven (or more) kingdoms; and throughout most of its history, some of these kingdoms were always at war with others. The Targaryens put a stop to that, thanks in large part to dragonpower. They could have used the dragons to commit Black Harren- style atrocities, oppressing the smallfolk and confiscating their wealth; but they didn't. So in that sense, they arguably made life better for the common people.

On the other hand:

Quote

Targaryen rule oversaw perhaps the most destructive civil war in the history of Westeros.

Indeed. And the war was waged by Targaryens fighting against each other, not by rebellion or intramural war between other lords.

[Aldarion]

8 hours ago, Aebram said:

Before the Conquest, Westeros was divided into seven (or more) kingdoms; and throughout most of its history, some of these kingdoms were always at war with others. The Targaryens put a stop to that, thanks in large part to dragonpower. They could have used the dragons to commit Black Harren- style atrocities, oppressing the smallfolk and confiscating their wealth; but they didn't. So in that sense, they arguably made life better for the common people.

On the other hand:

Indeed. And the war was waged by Targaryens fighting against each other, not by rebellion or intramural war between other lords.

I think Targaryens introduced what I call "unification conundrum": the larger polities tend to be, wars become less frequent, but at the same time also far more destructive.

Just compare millions and millions dying in Chinese premodern wars to comparatively extremely frequent but relatively low-key wars of feudal Europe.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Aldarion

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 12/8/2023 at 6:27 AM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The Targaryen rule of Westeros has been mostly peaceful and marked by long periods of peace and stability.  The reign of the dragons were very beneficial for the people of Westeros.  The Targaryen rulers were mostly capable.  They were neutral in the way they treated and judged their vassals.  The power they had over their dragons also made sure to keep ambitious potential challengers from rebellion.  The lessons they brought from Valyria were taught to the generations and that included skill at politics.

The Baratheons were failures because were unskilled political players and were not good managers of a kingdom.  The very short Baratheon reign led to economic chaos and to the most destructive war in the history of Westeros.  The Hands, Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, were capable managers of their own kingdoms but were not skillful enough to govern something the size of Westeros.  It was not a good call on Jon Arryn to pick Cersei for Robert to marry.  Eddard made many bad calls throughout his service to Robert. 

The Targaryens contained the Ironborn and kept them from doing the things they do.  Which are stealing, raping, and plundering.  The dragons were able to subjugate and mostly kept the Iron rulers castrated.  No other family could have kept the Ironborns beneath their thumbs.  The Iron Throne enacted rules which leveled the playing field between nobles and commons to where it has never been in the past.  Like they banned the Lord's Right to the First Night. 

Daenerys Targaryen is learning the skills she will need to govern and lead.  Just like her Azor Ahai persona was shaped and tempered to become the leader the world needed to see it through the long night.  Daenerys is being tempered like the Valyrian steel to unite the people, to rule, and to carry them through the shadow of the long night.  She is headed towards a major confrontation with the coming Stark-led darkness.

Winter and the Others are existential threats to life.  But there is another kind of evil.  The ones carried out by man.  Greed, betrayal, and cruelty.  The Greyjoys, Starks, and Lannisters are the personifications of those human faults.  It is those human weaknesses which make all vulnerable to the threat presented by the Others.  It has been shown thus far that the Starks, Baratheons, and the Lannisters are incapable of uniting all the people of Westeros.  Only the Targaryens have been able to do that.  And only Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons can rebuild the Westeros that the Baratheons and the Lannisters have broken.  She will need time to hone and temper her skills in Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki Sea before she goes to Westeros to claim it.  She will win the support of Benerro who will identify her as the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and the heir to the territories which once were part of Valyria.  Many of the slaves she rescued from bondage will join her military forces and play their part in rebuilding Westeros and saving all from the Others.  Westeros and parts of Essos will become one and an Empire. 

 

 

Westeros will remain broken until Daenerys subdues the Greyjoys, Starks, wildings, and Lannisters.  The rest who are not already on her side will follow and accept the return of Targaryen rule.  Westeros has had a string of terrible leaders in Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Robb Stark, Jon Snow, and Stannis.  

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

We may soon and hopefully soon, see the beginnings of a new Great Empire Of The Dawn.  Somebody will have to pick up the pieces and rebuild at the end of the Long Night.  Daenerys Targaryen will be that person.  No other Targaryen in history has three dragons.  She has this great power for a reason.  To rebuild civilization after the Long Night. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

On 12/13/2023 at 5:47 AM, KingAerys_II said:

The law of six, the law of thumbs, the abolition of the first night, the King's road, the construction of wells for the smallfolk, guess who approved and did everything. 

The situation before the Conquest was very bad, the lords keep exploiting the smallfolk in the current history

And the Targs lit them on fire

[Maegor_the_Cool]

When will you people (person) stop making the same topic over and over again. Full of falsehoods, bluster, and just trolling. Do you people (person) just not have a life? Genuine question.

[Darth Sidious]

The smallfolk were happy enough when the Targaryens subdued the lords and took control of the kingdoms. That part of history will repeat. The Starks will kneel again and the Lannisters will bake to a crisp. 

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

The smallfolk were happy enough when the Targaryens subdued the lords and took control of the kingdoms. That part of history will repeat. The Starks will kneel again and the Lannisters will bake to a crisp. 

The smallfolk who stormed the Dragonpit during the first Dance beg to differ.

Dragons terrible wicked creatures.  Brave men kill them.  It is known.

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

When will you people (person) stop making the same topic over and over again. Full of falsehoods, bluster, and just trolling. Do you people (person) just not have a life? Genuine question.

Cheerleading for one team or the other is all good fun while it lasts.  But we all know where this is headed.  The Stark and the Targs are going to have to learn to make love not war, like good little hippies.  Only then can they unite against the forces of Death and save the World.