Kalbear Posted December 19, 2023 Share Posted December 19, 2023 48 minutes ago, Ran said: So long as the laws of armed combat are being followed, there's not much that's going to change. Now, there's a line of argument to be made that the laws of armed combat are themselves deeply flawed, and that we should demand more than that... But that's what's in the books, that's what presently tries to moderate warfare on an international scale, and it's what we've got to work with. Yeah, I disagree with all of that. If the US decides that even though Israel is following the laws of war - despite Israel not being a signatory to many of them - that they are not going to support Israel militarily any more, that is going to change quite a bit of behavior. Similarly if the US rewards Israel for what they're doing that will encourage other states to do similar things when the time comes. Ultimately whether or not Israel is abiding by the laws of war is largely meaningless as there exist no realistic ways to enforce them against Israel without the conquest of Israel, so using that as the rubric to measure what can be done is similarly pointless. I'll also point out yet again that Raqqa and Mosul both ended up having significantly fewer civilian deaths than Gaza has, with significantly less use of bombs, and with an armed force that was less advanced than Israel. If Israel treated Gaza like Raqqa and Mosul I suspect there would be much less complaining. In addition to fewer bombings and more clearing of civilians there were also humanitarian corridors opened up and supplies for food/water/fuel brought in very early in both cases - something Israel chose not to do. Matrim Fox Cauthon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted December 19, 2023 Share Posted December 19, 2023 The United Auto Workers leadership came out to demand a ceasefire to Israel’s war-crimes in Gaza. https://www.thenation.com/article/world/working-class-labor-foreign-policy-uaw/ Quote .... After a decades-long decline of organized labor in the United States, few expected the UAW to triumph. But perhaps fewer anticipated what the autoworkers’ union did earlier this month. It threw its weight behind “an immediate ceasefire and end to the siege of Gaza,” in the words of an unequivocal statement signed by dozens of unions, including the similarly dynamic Chicago Teachers Union. .... Ran and kissdbyfire 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ran said: And yet some of these organizations have been defeated militarily. I am highly dubious of experts who claim there's a one-size-fits-all solution for terrorism. There isn't. ISIS wasn't taken apart into relatively irrelevancy by COIN and diplomatic negotiation, it was taken apart by concerted and sustained military action including heavy air and artillery strikes in key cities they captured like Raqqa and Mosul, places that ended up looking a lot like Gaza does now. So long as the laws of armed combat are being followed, there's not much that's going to change. Now, there's a line of argument to be made that the laws of armed combat are themselves deeply flawed, and that we should demand more than that... But that's what's in the books, that's what presently tries to moderate warfare on an international scale, and it's what we've got to work with. Your comparisons between Hamas and ISIS are fundamentally flawed. Hamas is a home grown terrorist organization that (Whether you acknowledge it or not) is fighting for the liberation of their people. ISIS is a international terrorist group that is seeking to establish a religious theocracy that is not built on any nationality or ethnic group, but rather based on religion. ISIS did not enjoy the same level of popular support in the areas they occupied because they were seen by a significant amount of the people in those areas as invaders or outsiders. In that case, you can defeat them militarily, because the civilians you may be killing in the crossfire didn't necessarily share an identity or aspirations with ISIS. In addition, the groups fighting ISIS were the Kurdish groups as well as the Iraqi military, so you have a situation where the state/the local ethnic group in the case of the Kurds, is acting within their own boarders against an outside or insurgent force on behalf of its citizens. The better comparison would be Ireland and the IRA which killed many civilians in addition to their British occupiers and even then, they only laid their arms down as part of a political negotiation. But of course we don't make the comparison because how could we compared civilized European terrorists with the savage Muslim terrorists. 7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Grim, which should be obvious. Acknowledging that an organization's primary goal is one of liberation and understanding why they act in the manner they do is not the same thing as endorsing their methods or ideology. But by all means reading taking my posts in the most bad faith interpretation as possible. 1 hour ago, Zorral said: The United Auto Workers leadership came out to demand a ceasefire to Israel’s war-crimes in Gaza. https://www.thenation.com/article/world/working-class-labor-foreign-policy-uaw/ Shawn Fain is legitimately one of the most inspiring people in American politics right now and the UAW is show us the power the unions can wield for the betterment of society. Edited December 20, 2023 by GrimTuesday Zorral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 Just now, GrimTuesday said: Acknowledging that an organization's primary goal is one of liberation Their primary goal isn't liberation. It's destruction, which is why they're happy when Palestinians die as well. Zorral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 Just now, Tywin et al. said: Their primary goal isn't liberation. It's destruction, which is why they're happy when Palestinians die as well. You're just plain wrong, and I don't think there is anything I can do to convince you otherwise because you're just gonna keep calling me a Hamas sympathizer or whatever rather than actually engaging with why Hamas exists and why do they what they do, because right now your understanding of Hamas is basically on the same unthinkingly shallow level as "they hate us for our freedom" was regarding Al-Qaeda in the wake of September 11th. Go read some Avi Shlaim or Ilan Pappe, maybe you'll learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 38 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Their primary goal isn't liberation. It's destruction, which is why they're happy when Palestinians die as well. your inabillity to see hamas as a complex organization in a complex context is sadening and is making you take positions that are not going to age well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said: You're just plain wrong What group that's goal is liberation denies the people they want to liberate food, water and medical supplies? I've read a lot about them over the years and there is no doubt their primary goal is to kill, not liberate, and they're happy to kill their own people in the process. You've accused me of believing the propaganda of the side I can say sucks, yet you buy in to the even worst side without seeing it. 1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said: your inabillity to see hamas as a complex organization in a complex context is sadening and is making you take positions that are not going to age well No, the Palestinian situation is very complex as I've said numerous times. Hamas' isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Balstroko Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 I agree with @Tywin et al. that Hamas is nothing more than a terrorist organisation with little motive beyond the destruction of Israel. Nothing they’ve ever done could be considered as being constructive to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. They actively pursue policies that ensure the residents of Gaza live in perpetual misery, by being deprived of basic necessities. None of that justifies the actions Israel has undertaken in Gaza that ultimately lead to tremendous suffering and directly help organisations like Hamas maintain a foothold. Without proper recognition of the need to establish a Palestinian state, the cycle will continue for the foreseeable future. Tears of Lys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 didnt kalbear posted in one of this threads an article or something like that that said that with hamas in goverment the did do some important things to improve the life of palestinans (as much as posible given israel policies in gaza)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said: didnt kalbear posted in one of this threads an article or something like that that said that with hamas in goverment the did do some important things to improve the life of palestinans (as much as posible given israel policies in gaza)? I dunno about as much as possible, but hamas was elected as a protest against PA and corruption and largely turned things around in Gaza. Gaza had been corrupt, run by street gangs, lacked major infrastructure and no real police force. Hamas changed all of that. As lame as it is, a more competent dictatorship is better than anarchy. But hamas also embezzled and diverted resources aplenty to continue fighting Israel and Fatah, often with Israeli blessing and indirect support. As was said before it is complicated. Hamas is an extremist terrorist organization that absolutely believes the ends justify anything and is willing to sacrifice millions to get what they want. They are also absolutely trying to destroy what they see as the oppressors of Palestinians and cause other Arab and Muslim nations and people to rise up against Israel. They can be absolutely evil and be trying to liberate Palestinians. Their motives are not what make them evil. Prince of the North 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 (edited) Some of you seem to be under the misapprehension that in order to be a liberatory movement, it has to be made up of good, moral people who you agree with, which is definitely not the case. But this is also why you don't assassinate or delegitimize the secular leftists who are more inclined towards a lasting peace even if it isn't the one you want (most of the left wing groups advocate for a single state where both Israelis and Palestinians are equal) while also surreptitiously supporting the inflexible religious fundamentalists. Edited December 20, 2023 by GrimTuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said: But this is also why you don't assassinate or delegitimize the secular leftists who are more inclined towards a lasting peace even if it isn't the one you want (most of the left wing groups advocate for a single state where both Israelis and Palestinians are equal) while also surreptitiously supporting the inflexible religious fundamentalists. You'd think Western idiot leaders would have learned a thing from late 1970s Iran. Obviously, they didn't. Possibly, they're just too stupid to actually learn anything and adapt. As for Hamas, it was widely known in the late 1990s that it was less corrupt than PA and actually did a bit of social work, something the Fatah couldn't be bothered to do in Gaza. I mean, when people live a shitty life, they're not going to vote for extremist maniacs just because these guys are more psychos than their current rulers, they also need some genuine incentive, like getting some free food or a check from time to time, otherwise they're not going to see a difference in their daily life that would justify changing their political leaning. Once the political supermacy is established, Hamas might have reduced its social impact and put more weight into anti-Israeli bloodthirsty actions and attacks, but it never would've been able to win over Gaza if it had only relied on that. Edited December 20, 2023 by Clueless Northman Zorral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted December 20, 2023 Author Share Posted December 20, 2023 Last segment on All In with Chris Hayes last night: “I will be the first to confess, the first to confess, I have no idea what to do about Hamas or about what comes next. But the ‘Amalek method’ cannot be the solution. To be honest, I’m not particularly convinced the Israeli leadership has any idea what comes next. […]But whatever your views on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, it is just plainly the case that our country is supporting a war whose animating moral logic looks to most of the world, and frankly to me, to be that every single last person in Gaza is guilty and deserves their lot. And that is the moral logic of Hamas. It is the moral logic that drove the atrocity of October 7. And an atrocity like October 7 does not, cannot, justify whatever comes after it, whatever the response. There is no terrorist attack, no matter how horrific - and truly October 7 was horrific - that can wash clean what we are seeing in Gaza and what we as Americans and our government are abetting. It must end. We must stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted December 20, 2023 Author Share Posted December 20, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 (edited) Israel is struggling to destroy Hamas, but it’s destroying Gaza "Israeli President Isaac Herzog held the line. “We intend to take over the entire Gaza Strip and change the course of history,” he said during a Tuesday interview facilitated by the Atlantic Council, a Washington-based think tank." https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/20/israel-battlefield-gaza-defeat-hamas/ Quote .... But Israel, in the process, has crushed much more. “Rather than destroy Hamas, this war will destroy Gaza and render it largely uninhabitable, as we can already see in northern Gaza,” noted Dov Waxman, professor of Israel Studies at the University of California at Los Angeles. “This will fuel more militancy among Palestinians and more support for armed resistance.” That sense of a bloody cycle is underscored by the chilling language coming from many prominent voices in the Israeli political establishment, including Netanyahu, who has discussed “thinning” out Gaza’s population. His rhetoric, observed Middle East historian Jean-Pierre Filiu, demonstrates that behind Israel’s “stated desire for retaliation lies the desire to eliminate not just Hamas but the Gaza Strip.” .... Nor will it be successful, despite utterly destroying and keeping armed, occupied watch on the rubble that Gaza has already become, Israel will NOT be safer. Quote .... Hamas is entrenched and difficult to defeat. Even after waging one of the most intense, heavy military campaigns in recent history, Israel has only neutralized a fraction of the militant group’s armed strength. And, in the process, it has ravaged the embattled territory where Hamas has held sway, displaced close to 90 percent of the population, flattened whole neighborhoods, triggered a sprawling humanitarian disaster and found itself flailing in a losing battle for global public opinion. .... Quote .... Some Israeli politicians say this bluntly. “The whole Gaza Strip needs to be empty. Flattened. Just like in Auschwitz. Let it be a museum for all the world to see what Israel can do,” recently declared David Azoulai, mayor of Metula, Israel’s northernmost town. “Let no one reside in the Gaza Strip for all the world to see, because October 7 was in a way a second Holocaust.” The official museum at the Holocaust’s most infamous concentration camp responded on social media, saying the Israeli mayor’s remarks “may sound as a call for murder of the scale akin to Auschwitz.” Edited December 20, 2023 by Zorral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-unlawful-killings-gaza-city Quote OHCHR OPT has received disturbing information alleging that Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) summarily killed at least 11 unarmed Palestinian men in front of their family members in Al Remal neighbourhood, Gaza City, which raises alarm about the possible commission of a war crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: which raises alarm about the possible commission of a war crime. Another one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/un-security-council-us-block-accountability-international-gaza_n_6583338ce4b04da984257b9c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted December 20, 2023 Author Share Posted December 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/un-security-council-us-block-accountability-international-gaza_n_6583338ce4b04da984257b9c Fucking disgusting and shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Fucking disgusting and shameful. Agree but also no less than I expected from them really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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