Israel - Hamas war XIII

[Relic]

Just now, Jace, Extat said:

 

There's a reason that civilized powers, with modern equipment, don't strike first. Israel could flatten Gaza, they could do it in a day. Real, 1945, indiscriminate shit. They don't.

 

He names one, as you asked, and that's your response?

[DireWolfSpirit]

Or what about the devastation ISIS rained across Syria.

I fealt like that was left understated because Assad is so unpopular but it was devastating what the terrorist carried out in places like Palmyra and Raqqa and Aleppo and on a much greater scale than anything weve seen in Israel or Gaza.

"ISIS forces have also been criticized by the UN of using public executions and killing of captives, amputations, and lashings in a campaign to instill fear. "Forces of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham have committed torture, murder, acts tantamount to enforced disappearance and forced displacement as part of attacks on the civilian population in Aleppo and Raqqa governorates, amounting to crimes against humanity", said the report from 27 August 2014.^[267] ISIS also persecuted gay and bisexual men.^[268]

Enforced disappearances and arbitrary detentions have also been a feature since the Syrian uprising began.^[269] An Amnesty International report-"

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[Kalbear]

11 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

There's a reason that civilized powers, with modern equipment, don't strike first. Israel could flatten Gaza, they could do it in a day. Real, 1945, indiscriminate shit. They don't.

So again we get to the point that because Israel isn't nuking Gaza they're good people. That argument doesn't fly any more than it does with Russia and Ukraine. Russia isn't nuking Ukraine or going into total war because they know Ukraine's allies wouldn't stand for it. 

Israel isn't going harder against Gaza for the same reason. And in fact we know they want to go harder but the US has managed to pull them back some. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Holy shit i leave to type a response and see about 5 posts the same points lol.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

We have literal evidence that this isn't the case. No other western nation in the last 60 years has reacted similarly to attacks like this.

What Western country has a similar narrative? You listed one where fewer people were killed than hostages taken in this instance, with ten times more also being killed and ignored that it was the single worst terrorist attack in the country's history. And that's before you consider it's a group of people who has constantly lived in fear with the attacking side vowing to keep attacking until everyone they hate is dead.

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I'm also sad - I had thought from other comments that you changed your mind on that and that you thought Israel has been going too far. Alas.

They have gone too far, but people were saying they went to far by even responding after a few days. 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes. We've had the same convo iterations ago iirc.  One is the lone legitimate democracy in a dangerous region, the other a nasty terrorist organisation. So yes, Israel is held to higher standard, as it should. 

Like I said, it should be, but it can't be held to the highest standard while the other is held to basically none. And Hamas was elected and support for them is growing. 

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

Links please.

 

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NEW YORK — Pro-Palestinian demonstrators on Sunday in New York celebrated Hamas’s massive deadly terror attack against Israel, as supporters of the Jewish state held rallies to mourn and express outrage over the slaughter.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pro-palestinians-celebrate-hamas-attack-as-israel-supporters-rally-in-new-york/

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LONDON — Authorities in cities across Europe and the United States are implementing tighter security at Jewish holy sites and for local communities in the wake of Hamas’s unprecedented attack on Israel.

 

The moves come after videos appeared to show people in several cities celebrating the surprise assault on Saturday, which sparked retaliation from Israel. Hundreds of people have been killed on both sides of the conflict, and scores were missing Sunday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/08/israel-hamas-war-security-police-jewish/

They're not hard to find.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

What Western country has a similar narrative? You listed one where fewer people were killed than hostages taken in this instance, with ten times more also being killed and ignored that it was the single worst terrorist attack in the country's history. And that's before you consider it's a group of people who has constantly lived in fear. 

What Western country? The US and France have. If you want to talk about Western countries being on the border with another one the best example is the Troubles - and the UK was absolutely brutal there and not remotely close to doing what Israel has done with Gaza. Hell, Ukraine hasn't acted like this towards Russia or Russians, and they certainly have cause!

As to constantly living in fear - oookay. So you're giving the US police answer - that as long as you legitimately fear for your life you can shoot someone multiple times in the back when they don't have a gun? You can snipe two women in a church because they're scary? If you are legitimately concerned that Israelis will always live in fear you should be advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel and ship them off to, I dunno, Madagascar or Hawaii or something. At least then they wouldn't have people that loathe them on their borders. And we already know you're fine with ethnic cleansing.

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Like I said, it should be, but it can't be held to the highest standard while the other is held to basically none. And Hamas was elected and support for them is growing. 

Israel isn't being remotely held to the 'highest' standard. It's not even the US standard, and that's pretty damn low. And yes, you can hold one side to a high standard because that is supposedly what that side stands for. Hamas is a terrorist organization that happily kills civilians in brutal ways. They are being sanctioned, blockaded, are on no-fly lists and are so bad that almost no one in the entire Muslim world wants to deal with them. Do you know how bad you have to be to get on Saudi Arabia's shit list? The idea that Hamas is not being punished for their standing is ridiculous on its face. 

Again, what you appear to want is to have Israel be held to the same standards as Hamas. Which means...blockades, sanctions, no-fly lists, no banking, etc. What I want  is not to pay for Israel to carry out massive civilian slaughter and to ensure that countries do not benefit Israel while it is doing exactly that. 

 

[Kalbear]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pro-palestinians-celebrate-hamas-attack-as-israel-supporters-rally-in-new-york/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/08/israel-hamas-war-security-police-jewish/

They're not hard to find.

Also on this - the main thesis was that support for Israel died almost immediately. It did not. It went up quickly and then came back down about one month to 6 weeks later - largely on reports that by that time over 4000 kids had been killed.

[Clueless Northman]

26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Do you know how bad you have to be to get on Saudi Arabia's shit list?

No need to be extremely bad, just being good buddies with the Muslim Brotherhood (which to be fair is already being quite bad) will do the trick.

[AncalagonTheBlack]

 

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

What Western country has a similar narrative? You listed one where fewer people were killed than hostages taken in this instance, with ten times more also being killed and ignored that it was the single worst terrorist attack in the country's history. And that's before you consider it's a group of people who has constantly lived in fear with the attacking side vowing to keep attacking until everyone they hate is dead.

They have gone too far, but people were saying they went to far by even responding after a few days. 

Like I said, it should be, but it can't be held to the highest standard while the other is held to basically none. And Hamas was elected and support for them is growing. 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pro-palestinians-celebrate-hamas-attack-as-israel-supporters-rally-in-new-york/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/08/israel-hamas-war-security-police-jewish/

They're not hard to find.

And as I posted long ago on these threads for every one of these actions -- or so interpreted actions -- there are equally if not events and incidents more concerning Palestinians and mosques, with actual Palestinians even, who are Greek Orthodox, shot in the the streets in the US, because they were supporting their country and country people who of course aren't allowed any longer to have a country, not since 1945.  So I requested we stop doing that because we can do that every minute of the day. 

Which is more to the point, from the beginning, and continuing, actions and events that are sponsored, filled with, and together, of Jews and Arabs begging Israel to STOP what they are doing.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

What Western country? The US and France have. If you want to talk about Western countries being on the border with another one the best example is the Troubles - and the UK was absolutely brutal there and not remotely close to doing what Israel has done with Gaza. Hell, Ukraine hasn't acted like this towards Russia or Russians, and they certainly have cause!

You're the one that mentioned Western countries. The US was attacked to a lesser degree statistically and waged a multi-decade war. France was not attacked on nearly the same scale and didn't have an obvious target to really respond to. The Troubles lasted for several decades and was around the same overall death toll as 9/11, so again, not a great comparison.

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As to constantly living in fear - oookay. So you're giving the US police answer - that as long as you legitimately fear for your life you can shoot someone multiple times in the back when they don't have a gun?

You can shoot someone when they're firing rockets at you while claiming they want you to die, no?
 

Quote

And we already know you're fine with ethnic cleansing

When have I ever said I was? Israel has a right to defend itself and if Hamas continues to say they want to kill every Jew they can than they need to be taken out. 

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Hamas is a terrorist organization that happily kills civilians in brutal ways.

They're also a government, like it or not. And yes, they just massacred a lot of civilians. But we should leave them in place, right? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, Zorral said:

who of course aren't allowed any longer to have a country, not since 1945.  

They've had several chances to have their own state. Their leaders have pretty much rejected it at every negotiation, starting right from the beginning. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine#:~:text=The Palestinian National Authority (PNA,democratically elected and transparent government.

[kissdbyfire]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza

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The Israeli government is using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare in the Gaza Strip, which is a war crime.

Israeli officials have made public statements expressing their aim to deprive civilians in Gaza of food, water, and fuel – statements reflected in Israeli forces’ military operations.

The Israeli government should not attack objects necessary for the survival of the civilian population, lift its blockade of the Gaza Strip, and restore electricity and water. 

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

They've had several chances to have their own state. Their leaders have pretty much rejected it at every negotiation, starting right from the beginning. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine#:~:text=The Palestinian National Authority (PNA,democratically elected and transparent government.

There's a lot of mythology in this history, particularly as it is written by the victors.  Particularly as it began.  Which many links and resources have been put up here, and with which those who disagree don't engage, while some others, of course, have called me and the information a liar and lies.

Again, a big part of the problems here in communication is that a lot of us have been working on learning this history, have lived through it, all our lives, while others appear to have just discovered there are problems on Oct 7 or 1967.  They began far earlier than that.  To say otherwise isn't working.  Not these days when so many have been studying and learning colonialist history, and descendants of those who have suffered from it, have been studying and writing as well as those who have benefited.  People learn the mythologies much easier in nations like, say, the US, where the nation is so young that there are vast written documentation of what happened.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Zorral

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

You're the one that mentioned Western countries. The US was attacked to a lesser degree statistically and waged a multi-decade war. France was not attacked on nearly the same scale and didn't have an obvious target to really respond to. The Troubles lasted for several decades and was around the same overall death toll as 9/11, so again, not a great comparison.

911 is a great comparison, and the US didn't respond that way.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

You can shoot someone when they're firing rockets at you while claiming they want you to die, no?

Not with a nuke, no. So again - you're just okay with people doing whatever as long as they're afraid?

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

When have I ever said I was? Israel has a right to defend itself and if Hamas continues to say they want to kill every Jew they can than they need to be taken out. 

When your rational plan is ethnic cleansing, it's clear you are okay with ethnic cleansing. 

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

They're also a government, like it or not. And yes, they just massacred a lot of civilians. But we should leave them in place, right? 

When the fuck have I ever said hamas should stick around? Is this why you thought that Israel rebuilding Gaza meant that it'd be rebuilding it for hamas? Or is it just that any Palestinians in Gaza are automatically now hamas in your eyes?

[Zorral]

Nobody justifies the atrocities that Hamas committed Oct. 7th. Or supports them.  Not at all.  Nor does anyone WANT to.

Adjacently it's so painful to express the shocks and disappointments witnessing Israel accelerating the oppressions, the trespasses, the the thefts, the humiliations, the imprisonments and killings of Palestinians over these years, slowly realizing what we'd grown up believing about Israel wasn't exactly the entire story, and there were wrongs committed upon others to make this nation that we all believed in and admired.

This is something USians have been learning about themselves now for some decades too. Some of us can see it and accept that we committed historical atrocities and crimes, and others cannot.  It's horrible to realize that. Particularly since we can't travel to the past and change it -- particularly since we know we wouldn't change it, most likely -- unless Native American or African American -- if we could.  But now, we're here now, and maybe we can move forward doing better.  I dunno.  It doesn't look that way, does it? Since so many are determined that we should not.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Nobody justifies the atrocities that Hamas committed Oct. 7th. Or supports them.  Not at all.  Nor does anyone WANT to.

Yeah, don't say bullshit like this. We know of many people who do. Including people on this thread. You don't need to overexaggerate. 

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

don't say bullshit like this.

What???????? I've never seen anything like that from anybody. 

Yr response seems to derail from the subject of the comment, btw -- that all of us new nations are documented having committed what now we wish we hadn't -- which can't change that what has happened has happened. How shall we proceed then?  What think you?

Edited December 19, 2023 by Zorral

[Conflicting Thought]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, don't say bullshit like this. We know of many people who do. Including people on this thread. You don't need to overexaggerate. 

 

nobody has in this thread. saying that hamas was born out of a necesity is not the same as saying that they are right in the way they do things, we all also know that it was israel that proped them up.

we do see in these threads people making excuses, rationalizing, minimizing the ethnic cleansing and atrocities being comited agains the palestinians in gaza and in the west bank, we do see people in these threads questioning the death toll, saying that hospitals and refugee camps that where bombed is a necesity. it honestly surprises me to see such disregard for human lives. at the same time people on here shed tears for the people that where brutalized, raped and killed by hamas (rightfully), the have no tears for the same crimes being comited to palestinians, the utter distruction of gaza being completly leveled garner no reaction, just incredibly tonedef conversations about rebuilding, and stuff like that, that we all know will come to nothing. acussations of anti semitism that are ridiculous(in these threads at least) and only serve to muddy the waters. an israeli mayor said that they should make gaza a museum like auschwits, and the response to that incredibly dangerous retoric is to downplay it, like the downplaying of so much of such horrible shit. 

israel is killing journalist, people going to church, kids, with snipers, and i just know that when news like this come to light and are commented on in here, i will see some people  in here that come to the defence of the indefencible. and it makes me so sad and so angry.

[kissdbyfire]

There are no Christians and/or churches in Gaza according to Israeli politician. I mean, then people complain that these outrageous lies and appallingly bad propaganda gets called out.