Israel - Hamas war XIII

[Rippounet]

31 minutes ago, Ran said:

Apparently the Bislamach Brigade is a training brigade for future squad commanders and platoon sergeants, that gets put up to fully operational status in war time.

Which suggests something about the state of mind of Israeli officers, does it not?

Though I think it also suggests that this was a clever Hamas setup: release half-naked hostages (three men btw) with just a white flag in front of an Israeli unit, with no prior communication or warning? Chances are high that the Hamas cell that organized this liberation knew that the Israeli soldiers were very likely to shoot on sight. In fact, this specific Israeli unit may have been specifically targeted  either because it was notoriously trigger-happy and/or because it was too high-profile for the incident to be burried.

[Kalbear]

11 hours ago, Darzin said:

Israel doesn't really want Gaza. Gaza wasn't part of historical Israel and doesn't have any settlements, there is no reason to move people out of Gaza. Israel doesn't want it and the people there don't want to go. 

it was literally linked on the previous page that some Israelis are advocating settling in Gaza again, sold by saying "your beachfront home doesn't have to be a dream".

[Kalbear]

40 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Which suggests something about the state of mind of Israeli officers, does it not?

Though I think it also suggests that this was a clever Hamas setup: release half-naked hostages (three men btw) with just a white flag in front of an Israeli unit, with no prior communication or warning? Chances are high that the Hamas cell that organized this liberation knew that the Israeli soldiers were very likely to shoot on sight. In fact, this specific Israeli unit may have been specifically targeted  either because it was notoriously trigger-happy and/or because it was too high-profile for the incident to be burried.

I don't think that's the case, but I think it will be. Knowing specific unit behavior is not a great thing to rely on for something like this to be pulled off, with a lot of things that could go wrong. You have to assume they will respond in this way, that they will be in the area, that they will see them and not call in an air strike, etc. It probably is what it looks like - a tragedy that occurs when you are fighting in cities with opponents who don't have uniforms and when your troops are poorly disciplined and view everyone they see as an enemy, and leadership encouraging that behavior.

Now of course this behavior will be used against IDF - lots of Palestinians know Hebrew, and going out shirtless and yelling help and then leading others to ambushes is going to happen.

[Ran]

48 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Though I think it also suggests that this was a clever Hamas setup

I saw this suggested by someone else and dismissed it before this report. Now... maybe. It's vile, if so.

[Hmmm]

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

I saw this suggested by someone else and dismissed it before this report. Now... maybe. It's vile, if so.

I really doubt that. Too many things that can go wrong, even with a trigger happy Israeli unit (assuming Hamas even knows which particular IDF units they are up against in different neighbourhoods). And if it does, you would hand the IDF a huge propaganda victory instead of a defeat. 

Moreover, if Hamas tried something like that, I really doubt they would have chosen these three hostages. The reason being that one of them was pale with really red-blonde hair. There are Levantine people who look like that, but it is very rare.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Hmmm

[mormont]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

This was referring to "friendly fire" incidents on October 7th specifically, which was very chaotic.

All the post-invasion incidents are being reviewed and investigated, per the source Ynet article. The IDF is also investigating and reprimanding people for these videos.

You have a lot of young conscripts who've grown up on social media, you have reservists called up who haven't been in uniform in years, and there's obviously a great deal of anger towards Hamas among the ranks, many of whom likely knew people or know people who knew people who were killed on October 7th. It makes it very personal. It's a bad recipe, but hopefully the IDF can clamp down on this sort of unproductive behavior and enforce discipline. 

It's a professional army, and they need to make sure everyone acts like they're in a professional army.

Here's the problem, though.

All of what you say in the third paragraph is true. Whether or not other incidents are being investigated, meanwhile, those on October 7th are not, and the reason given couldn't be flimsier. Meanwhile, as I've pointed out before, Israeli politicians are making unpleasant remarks about Palestinians and comments which suggest all Palestinians share blame for October 7, or that they are all legitimate targets, or worse. Settlers attack Palestinians in the West Bank, often with impunity. The government is dismissive of international humanitarian concerns, even up to those expressed by the US President. Senior IDF officers are reported to have made remarks that, to say the least, do not emphasise restraint or the rules of war. The social media these young conscripts consume is full of examples of bad behaviour by their peers and exhortations to punish Palestinians, who are depicted as barbaric and of inherently less value than Israeli.

In other words, these impressionable and angry soldiers are getting messages from everywhere that professional behaviour is secondary to dishing out revenge and punishment on Palestinians in general. In this atmosphere, they are behaving very badly and as a result, innocent people who do not need to die are being killed every day. It's undeniable at this point.

It is the responsibility of the IDF leadership and the Israeli government to reign in this situation. But the latter, at least, appear to prefer to inflame it, for personal political gain. What we've seen has been the result: and even besides the terrible unnecessary suffering for Gazans, it's been a moral and diplomatic disaster for Israel itself.

It's tragic how Netanyahu has taken a horrific, brutal attack on innocent Israeli civilians and turned it into a situation where Israel is now seen across the world as the bad guy. It's a crime against humanity and against his country for which he should rightly answer, but probably never will.

[Zorral]

13 hours ago, Darzin said:

Israel doesn't really want Gaza. Gaza wasn't part of historical Israel and doesn't have any settlements, there is no reason to move people out of Gaza. Israel doesn't want it and the people there don't want to go. 

Yet Israel is making the Gaza prison camp literally unlivable, incapable of sustaining life, right at this moment -- and had done a fairly good job at it before this war by turning on and off aid, opening and closing of egress and ingress. Which is the point since Israel doesn't want Palestinians living there.  I.e. ethnic cleansing.

In Gaza war, Israel’s radical settlers see an opportunity to expand

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/16/west-bank-settlers-gaza-israel/

Quote

 

.... And now, as Israel reels from the Hamas attack Oct. 7, the deadliest single day since the modern state was founded, the country’s extremist settler fringe sees new opportunities to expel Palestinians and expand the Jewish footprint in the occupied territories, further threatening the viability of a two-state solution.

Yehuda Shimon, a 48-year-old lawyer, looks out from a hilltop at the surrounding Palestinian villages. The closest lies less than half a mile away.

“We must make a war with the Arabs,” he said. “Here and Gaza, it’s the same Arabs. If they don’t leave, we must fight with them, and the strongest win.” ....

 

In regard to the circumstance described above of the killing of the Israeli hostages with white flags by an IDF soldier, when they'd already been identified as Israeli, one can see why African Americans are increasingly angered and objecting to (something probably not noticed by rank-and-file white folks who 1) don't live here; 2) don't associate with African Americans generally) that attempt to justify what Israel is doing with the circumstances of African Americans, both historic and hypothetical --

Quote

"The three hostages killed by Israeli forces in Gaza were carrying a makeshift white flag when a soldier felt threatened and opened fire ...."

This is the justification and excuse used by everyone from cops to randos who shoot and kill innocent, non-weapon carrying Black people -- "I felt threatened."

It is also the justification for ridding the schools, libraries and everywhere else of any history and materials pertaining to the African-Atlantic slave trade, the contributions that those riches made to capitalists that funded the Industrial Revolution, the history of slavery in the Western Hemisphere, the horrors of Reconstruction and Jim Crow, racist behaviors of all kinds. 'It made me feel uncomfortable and hurt my feelings as a white person," so it has become illegal and prohibited to teach, speak of, and have the materials available on these matters anywhere (as well as materials concerning LBGTQ, for that matter).

Edited December 16, 2023 by Zorral

[GrimTuesday]

The most moral army in the world.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Yet Israel is making the Gaza prison camp literally unlivable,

Gaza is not a prison camp. The need to use ever increasingly extreme language is getting ridiculous. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[fionwe1987]

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Gaza is not a prison camp. The need to use ever increasingly extreme language is getting ridiculous. 

Ok. What is Gaza, then?

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

The most moral army in the world.

Most moral army sniper also reported to have shot two women sheltering in a church.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2023-12/in-gaza-israelis-attack-holy-family-parish-two-women-killed.html

Not sure what these two civilians had to do with a rocket launcher...

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

45 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ok. What is Gaza, then?

An unrecognized state with a government run by a terrorist organization that started a war with a much stronger country. 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

An unrecognized state with a government run by a terrorist organization that started a war with a much stronger country. 

True but a rather incomplete description imo.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Gaza is not a prison camp. The need to use ever increasingly extreme language is getting ridiculous. 

Prison camp is the language in which Gaza has been described for years.  "Open air prison camp" is a frequently employed term.  If you believe I'm making this up, google: <gaza open air prison camp>.  The first hit that comes up, right at the top, is from Human Right Watch, followed by many others -- and this didn't begin in this fall or even in this year. 

BTW --for many years as well, the antebellum southern slavery plantation system has been described as the largest open air prison system the world had so far seen.

When people are kept in a particular space, not allowed to come and go as they please, by legal, violent means, one is hard put to describe this as anything but incarceration.

In the early days of the war, the NPR programs, in their soft spoken modes of explaining to their listeners even intoned, "On October 7th, Hamas broke out of Gaza...."

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Zorral

[Heartofice]

20 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Prison camp is the language in which Gaza has been described for years.  "Open air prison camp" is a frequently employed term.  If you believe I'm making this up, google: <gaza open air prison camp>.  The first hit that comes up, right at the top, is from Human Right Watch, followed by many others -- and this didn't begin in this fall or even in this year. 

 

True, it is an oft used phrase, doesn’t mean it’s accurate however.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

True but a rather incomplete description imo.

How so?

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Prison camp is the language in which Gaza has been described for years.  "Open air prison camp" is a frequently employed term. 

Yes, because it's repeated all the time. It's half true, but the people who frequently use the term never address why the border was closed. 

[Ran]

"Prison camp" does not make one think of a place with luxury car dealerships, resorts, the ability to take vacations in other countries (if under some unusual restrictions that aren't faced most other places), multiple universities, etc. It's a deliberately broad term that gives a misleading impression, the same way as referring to long-term established neighborhoods with markets, highrise apartment structures, and business districts as "refugee camps".

It's blockaded by both of its neighbors. That's an accurate statement.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Ran

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

The point is to try to compare Israel to the Nazis. Criticisms of the Israeli government are totally valid. Stretching them to such extremes is what makes a lot of Jews say it's becoming anti-Semitic. 

[Zorral]

48 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The point is to try to compare Israel to the Nazis.

No.

The number of vast prison camps in history is ... is vast.  See above, for a single example, the south's plantation slavery system.  For that matter look at the prison camps of Alabama and Arkansas, not to mention Louisiana's long-time Angola, right now. When people cannot go in or leave, including those who aren't officially, legally in the population, but must receive permission, that's a prison.  Business does go on inside prisons -- we have known that as long as there have been prisons.  Good grief France's King John II was Edward III's prisoner in England; John made a fortune importing and reselling French wine -- while his subjects generally starved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Legal definition of what constitutes war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and genocide

What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide By Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University.
Nov. 10, 2023

Gift link,   I provided a gift link to this back when it was published in November, but I'm doing it again, as the BBC interviewed him today, on these subjects, more than a month since the article was published, to see if he sees escalation.  Whatever history finally chooses to call what Israel's done and doing to the Palestinians we can safely say currently

Quote

they are carrying out mass murders.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html?unlocked_article_code=1.GU0.Cwwr.-EdZNK7mtW64&smid=url-share

Ethnic cleansing - removing, usually via violence, a group from a specific territory; but it often becomes genocide because the people don't wish to be removed, which then, contains the threat of genocide, into which the ethnic cleansing can so easily fall into,

Quote

"as happened in the Holocaust, which began with an intention to remove the Jews from German-controlled territories and transformed into the intention of their physical extermination."

In the meantime Gaza's moving toward a third day of a complete communications blackout.  

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Zorral

[JGP]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

The point is to try to compare Israel to the Nazis. Criticisms of the Israeli government are totally valid. Stretching them to such extremes is what makes a lot of Jews say it's becoming anti-Semitic. 

That may be the point of some, but I don't think it a stretch to say very, very few. 

Apartheid systems aren't 1:1 synonymous with prison systems, but there are more than enough similarities.

Look at how Canada split and segregated Indigenous herein via Indian Affairs. [general] You could argue that native Indigenous here haven't been imprisoned for the majority of the colonial enterprise that is Canada, but you'd be embarrassing yourself.

Segregation, restriction of freedoms, infringement on culture, et al disenfranchisements ad nauseum.

Comparisons, variations and other minutiae could be trotted out as they have herein this thread, but there's no doubt in my mind that Apartheid and prison systems are descendant of the more or less purposeful, colonial mind. 

Take solace [wrong word probably, I'm in a rush] that Israel is far from alone in this.