Israel - Hamas war XIII

[Clueless Northman]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

FFS there's a difference between a prison and what's happened in Gaza for the last decade and a half. 

Indeed. Many European prisons, Norwegian ones for starter, are way nicer - and people tend to get out after a few years. Gaza, on the other hand, has basically been a real-life version of Escape from New York.

And of course what's going on in the West Bank ensures that, sooner or later, groups of pissed off Palestinians will try to revolt and assault some settler outpost, launching larger Israeli military reprisals.

Anyone hoping for an escape from the maddening bloodthirsty cycle of violence and death should be aware that the only way out implies that the strongest should make the first move, stay its hand and decide to stop hitting the weakest, then begin to discuss how to settle things out - which is a general principle of course, not just for this special case of Israel-Palestine mess. Any time any Israeli leader states that he's not going to stop acting violently against Palestinians because they haven't stopped first and basically had it coming, it's just making sure that the violence will not end until one side has been widely massacred - and these Israli leaders apparently think they can genuinely expel or wipe out Palestinians with limited casulaties on their side.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

18 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yes, it very much is. And comparing what Israel is doing to slavery in America is a perfect example of it. 

What are critics permitted to compare Israel's actions with that doesn't automatically get accusations of anti-Semitism lobbed their way by people with vested interests in glossing over Israel's atrocities and war crimes? It seems that no matter what comparison is being made, you seem quick and ready to throw out veiled threats that accuse others of anti-Semitism. 

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Darryk said:

This shooting of the hostages is a clusterfuck. Disgusting and embarrassing for the IDF. This kind of bloodthirst comes from the top. Netanyahu needs to be thrown in a shark tank.

Pretty incredible that a guy who is currently under indictment for corruption charges is able to start a war and slaughter thousands of civilians for reasons that amount to a massive security breach under his own watch. One might call it pretty convenient, even. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 hours ago, mormont said:

I know Ty and others have this optimism that the two-state solution will be resurrected as a long term solution because it 'has to be', but unfortunately it doesn't have to be. There are darker options. We all hope those won't be pursued, but this situation has the potential to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.

A two or more state solution is the only way forward. It just seems like that for now is completely fucked. 

2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

umm im jewish and you and i are in totally opossite sides in this issue. i for one try not to post in these threads because of people like you

Why? Because I advocate for various paths that can lead to a lasting peace? 

[Ran]

14 minutes ago, Relic said:

is able to start a war

Uh, who instigated October 7th?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said:

Gaza, on the other hand, has basically been a real-life version of Escape from New York.

So should Israel open the border up and just accept suicide bombings? What country would do that?
 

Quote

Anyone hoping for an escape from the maddening bloodthirsty cycle of violence and death should be aware that the only way out implies that the strongest should make the first move,

Not when the other side says they need to leave or die. Again, what country would just accept that? 

1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

What are critics permitted to compare Israel's actions with that doesn't automatically get accusations of anti-Semitism lobbed their way by people with vested interests in glossing over Israel's atrocities and war crimes? It seems that no matter what comparison is being made, you seem quick and ready to throw out veiled threats that accuse others of anti-Semitism. 

I said compare them to Apartheid if you want. It's not exactly correct, but there are overlaps. Just stop comparing Jews to Nazis. That's fucking cruel and if you don't get why Idk what to say at this point. 

[Darryk]

Israel is an occupying power, not an Apartheid. Citizens of Israel have full rights, there's a 20% Arab population. The West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel, they're territory captured in war.

Of course this doesn't' excuse what Israel does in it occupied territories.

[Relic]

18 minutes ago, Ran said:

Uh, who instigated October 7th?

Only one side has been calling this a "war". Not sure if Israel formally declared war but it was Netanyahu who said -

“We are at war. Not an ‘operation,’ not a ‘round,’ but at war, the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”.

[mormont]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I said compare them to Apartheid if you want. It's not exactly correct, but there are overlaps. Just stop comparing Jews to Nazis. That's fucking cruel and if you don't get why Idk what to say at this point. 

The thing is, though...

If we say that one can never compare any action by Jewish people to the Nazis, we are not doing the Jewish people or the memory of the Holocaust a service. The reverse, in fact.

If 'never again' is to mean anything, we have to be vigilant. No excuses and no exceptions.

That means people have to be free to make the accusation, against anyone, and people - including Israelis and Jews - must accept and treat that allegation seriously. They might think it's unfair. They might disagree with it. They might be able to refute it. But if they really want to honour the memory of their loss, they have to be willing to engage with it. To consider the possibility that it might, in theory, be true. Because nobody is immune to becoming like a Nazi. That's the lesson of the Holocaust. It was perpetrated by ordinary people, and that's the danger.

I said upthread that it's wrong to say that because Palestinians are victims, Jews are not also victims. But victims can go on to victimise others, this we know. And that's why, even if you consider the comparison to be cruel, you have to accept that it could be valid. I accept that it can be used as a form of anti-semitism, but insisting that it is inherently anti-semitic is wrong IMO.,

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, mormont said:

If we say that one can never compare any action by Jewish people to the Nazis, we are not doing the Jewish people or the memory of the Holocaust a service. The reverse, in fact.

If 'never again' is to mean anything, we have to be vigilant. No excuses and no exceptions.

I think this is an extremely important point. And it is, in fact, the exact point Masha Gessen makes in her article in the New Yorker. 

I highly recommend people read it, and also watch her interview (both linked a couple of pages back) where she goes into more details, especially about how important it is for everyone to remain vigilant and also never get to a point where we don't see the humanity in others. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, mormont said:

The thing is, though...

If we say that one can never compare any action by Jewish people to the Nazis, we are not doing the Jewish people or the memory of the Holocaust a service. The reverse, in fact.

Dude, wtf? You can find a number of other comparisons. Don't compare Jews to Nazis. Ever. The Nazis killed a third of the Jewish population and stated they wanted to kill them all. 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Dude, wtf? You can find a number of other comparisons. Don't compare Jews to Nazis. Ever. The Nazis killed a third of the Jewish population and stated they wanted to kill them all. 

I understand what you're saying, but I think maybe there's something being missed in what others are trying to express? And understandably (on all sides of the argument) given how difficult and sensitive the topic is. I don't want to add to any hurt you might be feeling irt this... but I think the point is that atrocious evil such as the Nazis inflicted on Jews and others but none as much as the Jews is nothing spectacularly rare; sadly humans have the capacity and worse, the will and means, to do that again. And again, and again. Against Jews or any other people/ethnicity - against anyone, really, for the most banal motives. 

When this comparison is made is not to minimise in any way what happened to Jews but as a warning for people to be vigilant because, again, evil can be very pedestrian and simple; it doesn't require a criminal mastermind to plot for decades. All it takes is for a few people in power justify to themselves that "this is the answer" or, worse, "this will benefit us", and for others to not be paying enough attention or be dismissive of the possibility. 

[Relic]

We could also, you know, just not make the comparison. The world does not lack for other examples of atrocious genocidal actions. 

[Clueless Northman]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I said compare them to Apartheid if you want. It's not exactly correct, but there are overlaps. Just stop comparing Jews to Nazis. That's fucking cruel and if you don't get why Idk what to say at this point. 

Fair enough. I suppose a comparison to 1916 Ottomans murdering Armenians and pushing them out of the empire to die in the desert could be used, then.

 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

So should Israel open the border up and just accept suicide bombings? What country would do that?

It's not a border as such because the other side isn't a fully independent country, which would mean having absolute control over both its inner territory and outer borders. Both Gaza and West Bank are pretty much a foreign country occupied by Israel - considering Gaza's size, the occupation has been done remotely since 2006, but still, the fact is that Gaza has no control over its borders, it's fully cut off from the rest of the world by IDF, can't trade, can't open up airport or harbour, can't even cross into Egypt without Israeli control, and is frequently bombed to smithereens by IDF, goes to show it is NOT a country and cannot be run as one, therefore it is still under Israeli responsibility.

So, Israel can just go away, leave entirely Gaza Strip and West Bank, forget any kind of control over their borders, let them do whatever they wish inside their borders, fully evacuate every single settler, all 700.000 of them, from West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Old City. If Israel wants to build a complete wall at the real international border, and won't let any Palestinian ever enter Israel again, so be it; as long as IDF doesn't bomb West Bank or Gaza under flimsy excuses just to hinder their economic and social development, that should be ok. Then, once all this has been done, we can talk about genuine international relationships between "equal" nations, and IDF (or more probably Israeli police and security forces) can be ruthless towards any Palestinian who forces entry into Israel proper to do some crimes, attack or violence.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I understand what you're saying, but I think maybe there's something being missed in what others are trying to express? And understandably (on all sides of the argument) given how difficult and sensitive the topic is. I don't want to add to any hurt you might be feeling irt this... but I think the point is that atrocious evil such as the Nazis inflicted on Jews and others but none as much as the Jews is nothing spectacularly rare; sadly humans have the capacity and worse, the will and means, to do that again. And again, and again. Against Jews or any other people/ethnicity - against anyone, really, for the most banal motives. 

When this comparison is made is not to minimise in any way what happened to Jews but as a warning for people to be vigilant because, again, evil can be very pedestrian and simple; it doesn't require a criminal mastermind to plot for decades. All it takes is for a few people in power justify to themselves that "this is the answer" or, worse, "this will benefit us", and for others to not be paying enough attention or be dismissive of the possibility. 

But that's the thing, it does minimize it, especially when the comparison is so absurd. Shit on the Israeli government all you like, but comparing a Jew to a Nazi is worse than calling one a kike in my book. It's that kind of insult, and despite mentioning this numerous times the point doesn't seem to land. 

32 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

So, Israel can just go away, leave entirely Gaza Strip and West Bank, forget any kind of control over their borders,

Again, do you know why they closed the borders? 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

We could also, you know, just not make the comparison. The world does not lack for other examples of atrocious genocidal actions. 

I'd have a lot more sympathy for this if it were direct comparisons. Instead the objection is to calling Gaza a prison camp.

[Ran]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

It's that kind of insult

"The cruelty is the point."

Usually said about the right, but applicable here.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But that's the thing, it does minimize it, especially when the comparison is so absurd. Shit on the Israeli government all you like, but comparing a Jew to a Nazi is worse than calling one a kike in my book. It's that kind of insult, and despite mentioning this numerous times the point doesn't seem to land. 

Perhaps I should have said the intention was never to minimise it. 

I'll refrain from making the comparison b/c I don't want to inflict further pain on anyone.  

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said:

Fair enough. I suppose a comparison to 1916 Ottomans murdering Armenians and pushing them out of the empire to die in the desert could be used, then.

Just now, an Israeli on the BBC World News Service (on National Public Radio) said he realized that open air prison was less accurate than describing Gaza (and the West Bank, and Palestinian parts of Jerusalem) as ghettos. 

Myself, I still see Gaza particularly as a prison. 

The communications blackout is still in place for Gaza, for what? the 3rd, 4th? day?

The so-called safe place in Gaza is smaller than the territory that is Heathrow Airport.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Zorral

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

55 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Perhaps I should have said the intention was never to minimise it. 

I'll refrain from making the comparison b/c I don't want to inflict further pain on anyone.  

But that's just the thing, I've said so many times it's not okay yet some want to double down and say it again. It's incredibly exhausting to have to explain over and over why something is hurtful.