Israel - Hamas war XIII

[Mudguard]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Since we see plenty of surrendered Palestinians and militants, it can't be the case that they shoot on sight, otherwise they would not have taken any prisoners who had surrendered to them.

Again, likelier to be their behavior. It would be wildly unlikely to suppose that a group of three fighting-age men in northern Gaza would be escaped hostages trying to avoid their former captors, and their attempts to evade recapture could also look very much like trying to sneak up on or take initiative from the IDF. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...

Now that they know that escape is possible, or that militants are abandoning hostages to fend for themselves, the IDF is clearly going to take on more risk to reduce the odds of this happening again.

I acknowledged to Heartofice that the IDF isn't killing everyone on sight, but to me, this is strong evidence that they are doing it some of the time.  Thinking on it some more, I do understand that the IDF soldiers are under tremendous stress, so having a quick trigger is understandable.  But still, civilians in the area are also probably skulking around because they are trying to avoid being shot or reduce the risk of being hit by shrapnel.  Don't think skulking around or hiding behind walls is enough to shoot someone who otherwise appears to be unarmed and is dress in civilian clothes.  If they refuse to obey orders though, then I think it's fair to engage if they feel it's necessary.

As I stated earlier, there are a lot of questions around the incident.  Were the hostages armed?  How close did the hostages get to the IDF troops?  Did the hostages call out to the IDF troops?  Did the IDF troops call out to the hostages?  Why did the IDF troops fire upon the hostages?  Answers to these question could completely change how I view the incident.  For example, if the hostages managed to find some weapons, I would not place any blame (or maybe very little) on the IDF.  

[Heartofice]

It’s pretty clear the IDF are not shooting everyone on sight. But at the same time, it is a war zone, soldiers need to make snap decisions to protect their own lives. It’s an unfortunate reality of war.

We all have the luxury of commenting on it ( and drinking coffee) but we aren’t there.

[Kalbear]

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Both, because why would some not get raped again once they were dragged into Gaza? 

Because hamas knows the value of hostages, because it has not happened that way in 40 years, and because of the 100+ released hostages not a single one has said anything like that.

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And yet their support among Palestinians has gone up since Oct. 7th and did so before Israel went on the counterattack. 

So you're in favor of Israel attacking the west Bank and declaring war on the Palestinians there because of a poll?

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No one said they were.

You literally said they were.

[Relic]

This "unfortunate reality of war" sure does serve, until you or your child is blown to red meaty bits. Meaningless prattle.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because hamas knows the value of hostages, because it has not happened that way in 40 years, and because of the 100+ released hostages not a single one has said anything like that.

Again, we haven't really heard much from them and they're mostly old women and kids. And in case you forgot, Hamas doesn't have all of them. They can't even account for them otherwise there would be more proof of life examples. 

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So you're in favor of Israel attacking the west Bank and declaring war on the Palestinians there because of a poll?

Have I not said several times that's where a new Palestinian state should be created? Pretty sure that indicates I don't want the WB to be attacked. 

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You literally said they were.

No, I said Hamas doesn't want to give up anymore women who are of fighting age, regardless of what they may have done during mandatory service. 

[Kalbear]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Again, we haven't really heard much from them and they're mostly old women and kids. And in case you forgot, Hamas doesn't have all of them. They can't even account for them otherwise there would be more proof of life examples. 

We have heard a lot from the hostages. We have heard about what they eat, how much they go to the bathroom, how many bombings, how many showers. Netanyahu talked to them directly and we even heard what they said. 

It's certainly possible that some atrocities are still to be revealed but at this point that seems like wishful torture porn.

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Have I not said several times that's where a new Palestinian state should be created? Pretty sure that indicates I don't want the WB to be attacked. 

So it is not accurate to say that Israel is trying to defeat the Palestinians. Cool. Might edit your statement then.

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, I said Hamas doesn't want to give up anymore women who are of fighting age, regardless of what they may have done during mandatory service. 

No, you said most of the remaining hostages were women. 

[Zorral]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

old women

Despite what trump says, being elderly does not exempt a woman from rape.  Particularly in these sorts of conditions.

[Kalbear]

22 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 Besides, most of the hostages are kids, old women, people living in a kibbutz and people partying at a music festival. Not exactly like capturing Arnold's team from Predator, right?

Bubbling this up again - this is inaccurate. Most of the remaining hostages are not kids or old women. 

[Zorral]

This may not be happening in cities where others here live, but here, in the last few days, various businesses, which employ vans and small trucks, such as plumbers, construction etc. have been putting up full side and back, lighted signs on their vehicles advocating for Palestinian freedom, respect and an end to the killing

Nothing is being said about Israel, just an end to the killing of Palestinians and giving them freedom.  The signage is very well thought out, and very simple.  The backlighting to the van/truck side size signage is also effective, keeps everything very plain and simple, yet the eyes cannot help but see and read.

This also tells us something about who works in which vocations in this city, which is anthropology on the ground too.

[Hmmm]

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Again, we haven't really heard much from them and they're mostly old women and kids. And in case you forgot, Hamas doesn't have all of them. They can't even account for them otherwise there would be more proof of life examples. 

Have I not said several times that's where a new Palestinian state should be created? Pretty sure that indicates I don't want the WB to be attacked. 

No, I said Hamas doesn't want to give up anymore women who are of fighting age, regardless of what they may have done during mandatory service. 

I followed your discussion and remembered that there was indeed a little reporting on sexual abuse of the hostages as well, back when all that other stuff about Hamas' atrocities was being published a little while back. A quick googling found this AP article:

https://apnews.com/article/sexual-assault-hamas-oct-7-attack-rape-bb06b950bb6794affb8d468cd283bc51 The article mostly focuses on the horrific crimes of the October 7 attacks themselves, so sensitive readers beware. 

Anyway, in one section there AP mentions interviewing one of the Israeli doctors who treated the released hostages, and who claims that more than 10 of the 110 released hostages were sexually assaulted or abused. The majority of those 110 hostages were either retirees, children, or male Thai agricultural workers. 

Either way, I don't really buy that Hamas does not want to release the remaining women hostages because of them telling stories about these things. Israel must have ample evidence of such crimes from the October 7 attacks themselves anyway. I think it is more likely that Hamas assumes that these women hostages could be regarded as particularly valuable by the Israelis. So Hamas will try to do some separate deal for them later.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Hmmm

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

We have heard a lot from the hostages. We have heard about what they eat, how much they go to the bathroom, how many bombings, how many showers. Netanyahu talked to them directly and we even heard what they said. 

It's certainly possible that some atrocities are still to be revealed but at this point that seems like wishful torture porn.

Which is in part why we probably haven't heard the worst of it, and from little we have heard it sounds like their detainment was pretty awful. 

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So it is not accurate to say that Israel is trying to defeat the Palestinians. Cool. Might edit your statement then.

Idk, I just said what I think is best, which has always been at least two states. 

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No, you said most of the remaining hostages were women. 

No, I said they weren't willing to release more women because they were of fighting age. JFC man. Has rooting for the Bears hurt you this much? 

22 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Despite what trump says, being elderly does not exempt a woman from rape.  Particularly in these sorts of conditions.

Just one more depressing thing to think about, but you're not wrong. Age can only protect the elderly and young kids from those who still have a sliver a soul left. 

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Bubbling this up again - this is inaccurate. Most of the remaining hostages are not kids or old women. 

 

 

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

49 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Have I not said several times that's where a new Palestinian state should be created? Pretty sure that indicates I don't want the WB to be attacked. 

You have indeed advocated for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

You have indeed advocated for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. 

No, I've said what makes the most sense given the realities on the ground is that people living in Gaza should get the entire settlements in the WB plus more. That's hardly calling for ethnic cleansing. 

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, I've said what makes the most sense given the realities on the ground is that people living in Gaza should get the entire settlements in the WB plus more. That's hardly calling for ethnic cleansing. 

But given the realities on the ground, there is no way in hell that Israel would stop with Gaza. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Which is in part why we probably haven't heard the worst of it, and from little we have heard it sounds like their detainment was pretty awful. 

I don’t know… First, I don’t know if sexual violence happened or not to the hostages; none of us do at this point. That said, we’ve seen inflammatory claims being made by the Israeli government that have not been corroborated or were disproved, like the “terrorist roster” that was actually a calendar. So even though I can’t be sure either way, atm I lean towards sexual violence not having been a major issue during the hostages’ captivity. If for no other reason b/c I don’t believe the Israeli government would refrain from trying to exploit it in an(other) attempt at garnering support - something they must understand they are quite short on right now. 

[Hmmm]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t know… First, I don’t know if sexual violence happened or not to the hostages; none of us do at this point. That said, we’ve seen inflammatory claims being made by the Israeli government that have not been corroborated or were disproved, like the “terrorist roster” that was actually a calendar. So even though I can’t be sure either way, atm I lean towards sexual violence not having been a major issue during the hostages’ captivity. If for no other reason b/c I don’t believe the Israeli government would refrain from trying to exploit it in an(other) attempt at garnering support - something they must understand they are quite short on right now. 

That does not make sense at all. If you believe the Israeli government and the IDF are so cynical, the least thing they should do at this point is release information about how horribly the remaining hostages are being treated. That would cause the already great pressure in Israeli society about arranging another hostage deal to increase even further.

But the Israeli government and the IDF want to finish off Hamas now. They do not want another long ceasefire, where Hamas gets to rest and regroup. Nor do they want to be forced to agree to some extremely lopsided prisoner swap a la Gilad Shalit, just because the political pressure from the Israeli public has become unbearable. 

But as I wrote above, some information regarding the abuse of hostages has already been published by respected news outlets. The reason for why we aren't seeing more details is likely the desire to protect the victims, who are still alive and already dealing with huge traumas without having this kind of stuff being made public to the world. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Hmmm

[Kalbear]

25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, I've said what makes the most sense given the realities on the ground is that people living in Gaza should get the entire settlements in the WB plus more. That's hardly calling for ethnic cleansing. 

That is literally ethnic cleansing. That would be a perfect textbook example of it.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

But given the realities on the ground, there is no way in hell that Israel would stop with Gaza. 

I'm still not sure they really want Gaza. I kinda worry the salt the Earth concept could happen, at least to some degree and that opens up a million nightmares. Hopefully not.

As to the WB, I think there needs to be a pretty clear marker that Israeli policy and their settlements must change right now. Absent that, there will never be an achievable peace long term. 

[Kalbear]

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Which is in part why we probably haven't heard the worst of it, and from little we have heard it sounds like their detainment was pretty awful. 

Sorry - your thesis is that we haven't heard the worst of it because we have heard so much, and your previous statement was that we haven't heard much? How do you keep that straight in your head?

And it makes sense to you that the hostages would not be talking about the worst things that happened...why? 

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, I said they weren't willing to release more women because they were of fighting age. JFC man. Has rooting for the Bears hurt you this much? 

And I quoted you when you said otherwise. I'm sorry that you can't recall all the positions you've taken, but I appreciate when you're willing to admit that you're wrong.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That is literally ethnic cleansing. That would be a perfect textbook example of it.

Not when it's relocating people a few miles away with the promise of a sovereign state and already built infrastructure. That sure as shit sounds better than a lot of tent cities, which is probably what will end up happening.