US Politics: Primary Schoolin'

[fionwe1987]

26 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I would venture that most of the cynicism and apathy on the left--and also the revolutionary cosplaying that bubbles up from time to time--stems from a failure to think about how much worse things can get should our admittedly highly flawed institutions crumble or fall.

Agreed. I find leftist cynicism in the US mystifying. If you think this system is completely hopeless, how will you deal with anything worse? What chance do your principles have in those situations? 

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Agreed and a false sense of utopian ideals for what would come.  Utopianism regardless of the point of view scares the shit out of me.  People always claim the murders are justified.

Utopianism is scary. Protopianism is what you want. It will always take work, and vigilance, and anyone promising a one shot permanent revolution that will forever make everyone happy is just delusional. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Agreed. I find leftist cynicism in the US mystifying. If you think this system is completely hopeless, how will you deal with anything worse? What chance do your principles have in those situations? 

Utopianism is scary. Protopianism is what you want. It will always take work, and vigilance, and anyone promising a one shot permanent revolution that will forever make everyone happy is just delusional. 

Agressive idealism that rejects nuance and demands acceptance by people who disagree is frightening to me regardless of the label that is attached to it.

[Tywin et al.]

10 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I think that's reasonable as a point of view and I often think that's the case, but I also recognize that it will take significant change and pain to revise things and there is very little guarantee that things will be better in ways I recognize as better with that system being broken. I get the desire for revolution but the revolution part is the 'easy' part - that's the part that appeals to emotion and anger and vendetta. The hard part is the reconstruction. 

And this is why I always say you have to chip away at problems. I get the desire for a speedy upheaval, but that just isn't going to work. You need a slow, long term plan to get where you want to go and be at peace that you might not see your dream in your lifetime. But that shouldn't stop you from chipping on. 

10 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is, but less democracy certainly ain't gonna fix it. That's where these Trumpistas lose me. 

Pissed off at the system and wanna make huge changes? I'm right with ya. 

Think a rapey, dictatorial sleazebag will do it? Yeah, no. 

The MAGA crowd are simply not serious people and there's no point rationalizing with them or their behavior. 

[Tywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Agressive idealism that rejects nuance and demands acceptance by people who disagree is frightening to me regardless of the label that is attached to it.

It's the cliche of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. It's amazing how many people fall into this trap and they're usually among the least qualified to get anything accomplished. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It's the cliche of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. It's amazing how many people fall into this trap and they're usually among the least qualified to get anything accomplished. 

You said it better than I did.  I’ll say it now… pragmatism is all I have to offer.

Edited January 25 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Jace, Extat]

17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Agressive idealism that rejects nuance and demands acceptance by people who disagree is frightening to me regardless of the label that is attached to it.

More than acceptance, it demands capitulation. 

What happened to you tuesday stands out as a prime example: 

It was not enough for you to have said nothing wrong. 

Then, explaining you certainly meant no wrong merely added to the conflagration and admonishions that perhaps you should not speak so freely or so often. 

 

The pure sense of righteousness involved makes one want to gag.

Edited January 25 by Jace, Extat

[Phylum of Alexandria]

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Perils of the suspended animation immigrants are in. I'm a resident and have been for 2 decades. But I am not a citizen, and likely won't be for a couple of decades more.

My wife got US citizenship during Trump's term, not out of real desire but out of fear. She at least had the satisfaction of voting against him in 2020, and she'll join me working the polls this year.

[Larry of the Lawn]

43 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It's the cliche of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. It's amazing how many people fall into this trap and they're usually among the least qualified to get anything accomplished. 

There's more to it than that.  There are people and corporations who have a lot of money and resources invested in things NOT getting better for people.  If we don't constantly put pressure on politicians and institutions to change they aren't going to.  Look at health insurance.  Costs continue to rise because we simply won't get rid of the middleman.

Is there some slow path to eliminate health insurance companies and shareholder profits from being the gatekeeper here?  Like an actual plan that these people im voting for are pushing for? Nope.  

So some people get pissed when we're told to shut up and vote for Democrats and stop complaining.  If we don't complain the people in charge won't do shit.  

Edited January 25 by Larry of the Lawn

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

My wife got US citizenship during Trump's term, not out of real desire but out of fear. She at least had the satisfaction of voting against him in 2020, and she'll join me working the polls this year.

It's good she had the choice. I don't, unfortunately. The legal immigration system in the US is just shitty, if you happen to be born in one of the two most populous countries in the world. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

People thinking citizenship will protect them in the long term are deluding themselves.

That's not how fascism works.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

So some people get pissed when we're told to shut up and vote for Democrats and stop complaining.  If we don't complain the people in charge won't do shit.  

Absolutely complain.  Complain loudly and push for change.  Just don’t say… I’m going to shoot everyone in the head if they don’t make the change I demand… which is the equivalent of sitting out an opportunity to vote against a Republican candidate at this point.

[Tywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

So some people get pissed when we're told to shut up and vote for Democrats and stop complaining.  If we don't complain the people in charge won't do shit.  

Like Scot said, complain, but don't demand for something that's likely impossible while refusing to accept less, and if you don't get exactly what you want make it easier for those who completely oppose your goals to grab power. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

20 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

People thinking citizenship will protect them in the long term are deluding themselves.

That's not how fascism works.

It wasn't a blind, confident belief. It was one step, and a qualified hope. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Plus, there's no one way that fascism works. Especially our clown car of chaos brand of fascism. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

but don't demand for something that's likely impossible

Why is it likely impossible? It shouldn’t be… unless you’re talking about how Congress works, especially irt lobby interests and such?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Why is it likely impossible? It shouldn’t be… unless you’re talking about how Congress works, especially irt lobby interests and such?

Demand it… but don’t refuse to vote for the party that doesn’t want to turn the US into an autocratic hellscape if you don’t get what you want.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Demand it… but don’t refuse to vote for the party that doesn’t want to turn the US into an autocratic hellscape if you don’t get what you want.

Wholeheartedly agree w/ the above.

 

[TrackerNeil]

Cynicism about politics is IMO just lazy. It's easier to cry doom and gloom than it is to try to make some kind of positive change. Sometimes it really is okay to be earnest.

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

More than acceptance, it demands capitulation. 

What happened to you tuesday stands out as a prime example: 

It was not enough for you to have said nothing wrong. 

Then, explaining you certainly meant no wrong merely added to the conflagration and admonishions that perhaps you should not speak so freely or so often. 

The pure sense of righteousness involved makes one want to gag.

Yes, yes, yes. To me, you apologize only when you actually think you've done something wrong. As we've seen from public shaming episodes, saying I'm sorry only encourages the mob. Your detractors won't believe that apology, and in any case their behavior was never really about social justice in the first place.

[Larry of the Lawn]

13 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Cynicism about politics is IMO just lazy. It's easier to cry doom and gloom than it is to try to make some kind of positive change. Sometimes it really is okay to be earnest.

 

A lot of the people, in my experience, who do cry gloom and doom about politics are also out there making actual positive changes in their own communities.  It's not some kind of paradox to be cynical about the political process and still volunteer or fill a need or go to town council meetings and remind some of these rightwing goons that people are paying attention to what they're doing. 

[Tywin et al.]

54 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why is it likely impossible? It shouldn’t be… unless you’re talking about how Congress works, especially irt lobby interests and such?

You can't call for sweeping change without 60 senators onboard. If you do without that you're just wasting everyone's time. Much like calling for a constitutional convention. Should it happen? 100%. Will it ever? No, so focus on the things that can be done to improve people's lives.

Edited January 25 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Absolutely complain.  Complain loudly and push for change.  Just don’t say… I’m going to shoot everyone in the head if they don’t make the change I demand… which is the equivalent of sitting out an opportunity to vote against a Republican candidate at this point.

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Like Scot said, complain, but don't demand for something that's likely impossible while refusing to accept less, and if you don't get exactly what you want make it easier for those who completely oppose your goals to grab power. 

Yeah I used to be one of those people who was like "If Bernie doesn't run then Democrats shouldn't vote" but I got over that phase and now agree with the more pragmatic approach of "vote for whoever is less shit".

Around the same time I realised "wait, I'm not even American" and stopped talking about politics for awhile after that. Now I generally just ask my American brother for his opinions and observer what Americans on message boards say.

I'm not gonna say I don't have skin  in the game (the whole world is affected in some way by what America does) but I also think a lot of non-Americans get so caught up in American politics they forget who to vote for in their own country.