US Politics: Courting Justice...or Disaster?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Couple of things off the top of head… Stop vetoing UN resolutions? Stop sending bombs and ammo and who knows what else? Don’t go out of your way and be one of 3 countries (I think?) to defend the indefensible at the ICJ?

That I can get behind.

[Jace, Extat]

48 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

The inhumanity on display here is disgusting. Sneering imperialists mocking and discrediting the actions of one who was willing to sacrifice himself in the name of those who are the victims of an ongoing genocide despite the fact he is not directly affected by said genocide. The inhumanity on display here is disgusting. Of course, it is the same folks who have been cheering the exact crimes against humanity that he is protesting are downplaying the legitimacy of his actions.

We are not disconnected by this either. Our tax dollars are directly going towards the murder of Palestinians.

Also if you think we are disconnected from the horrors that we are seeing, you're lying to yourself. The only reason we are able to live the lives we live is due to the exploitation and brutalization of the global south. You can blind yourself to this reality, comfort yourself with your hollow luxuries but that is just craven rationalization that allows you to not feel guilty for your excess and extravagance while other suffer to provide it to you.

Pretty good rhetoric. 

But what's inhuman to me is implicitly condoning suicide as a form of protest. Calling this man a martyr for the cause (whatever cause) is akin to encouraging others to end their lives as well. 

The thought that anyone would allow their words to lend weight to self-destruction is abhorrent. 

The west is diseased by sideline exhortations to extremism.

Edited February 26 by Jace, Extat

[Kalbear]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Show your work. How does setting yourself on fire help? You're inconveniencing a lot of people and now your family has to morn your death. 

It puts it in the news. It gets us talking about it. I get that you don't want to talk about your personal viewpoints given how weak they are, but I am not so disinclined. 

16 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It's not like you're going to change people's opinions. Just make those close to you sadder. 

Nonviolent protest, particularly protests that involve sacrifice, have a pretty long history of some effectiveness and getting people who are not directly involved to get involved. They're far more effective than online protests. 

16 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It's not altruistic because it's not actually helping.

That is a VERY weird definition of altruism. It also happens to be wrong. 

16 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Adopting a refugee would be way more helpful than setting yourself on fire.

This is virtually impossible to do and is incredibly frowned upon by the refugee community as far as taking action goes; they strongly recommend supporting families and other people close by to help instead of stealing their children. 

16 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Praising the act is pretty strange when there's so many other ways to help that would have been far more productive. 

You've suggested joining an online petition as a way to be more effective - how lame is that? 

 

6 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

And my guess is less than .1% of the world's population can name three of them off the top of their head. 

But they can name the causes that they died for. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Calling this man a martyr for the cause

But he is one, according to Merriam-Webster and other dictionaries.

martyr

1 of 2

noun

mar·tyr ˈmär-tər 

Synonyms of martyr

1

: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

2

: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle

a martyr to the cause of freedom

[Jace, Extat]

In a world where words are recategorized as violence I struggle to see how immolation is "peaceful". 

Violence against yourself is still using violence to forward your political will.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

The inability to understand why someone might sacrifice themselves for a cause is telling, as is the oft repeated mantra that only some forms of protest are worthy of respect.

I don't think that sacrifice itself is the point of disagreement. Dying in a fire while rescuing someone else is heroic beyond measure. Setting oneself on fire is, to me, radical self-destructive behavior. The two could not be more different in my eyes.

More importantly, it's not as if there is a manual that everyone accepts that establishes red lines for protests. Sincere and reasonable people can vehemently disagree on where that red line is. Self-immolation may be an "established" form of non-violent protest, but so is bombing buildings. The Weather Underground tried their best to cause no harm, but even so, those tactics are considered extreme and foolish by many.

Edited February 27 by Phylum of Alexandria

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It puts it in the news. It gets us talking about it. I get that you don't want to talk about your personal viewpoints given how weak they are, but I am not so disinclined. 

Nonviolent protest, particularly protests that involve sacrifice, have a pretty long history of some effectiveness and getting people who are not directly involved to get involved. They're far more effective than online protests. 

That is a VERY weird definition of altruism. It also happens to be wrong. 

This is virtually impossible to do and is incredibly frowned upon by the refugee community as far as taking action goes; they strongly recommend supporting families and other people close by to help instead of stealing their children. 

You've suggested joining an online petition as a way to be more effective - how lame is that? 

Did it make you feel better writing all this nonsense? 

It will be in the news today and gone tomorrow. I've shared my viewpoints, so that's a weird comment. What's weak is saying suicide is a good thing. Yes nonviolent protests have lead to good outcomes, I just don't see much to suggest killing yourself has, also, that's not non-violent. And there are myriad ways you can make a much better impact without doing so as I've listed. Quit with the selective reading. 

Quote

But they can name the causes that they died for. 

No they can't. Most people don't know shit about anything, even the smartest among us. 

[Jace, Extat]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

 

a martyr to the cause of freedom

Words are charged with meaning, calling someone obviously disturbed or insane a martyr is suggesting that their sacrifice achieved a worthwhile aim. This man's will not.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Jace, Extat said:

Words are charged with meaning, calling someone obviously disturbed or insane a martyr is suggesting that their sacrifice achieved a worthwhile aim. This man's will not.

Do you have info to share w/ us about the bolded? 

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Do you have info to share w/ us about the bolded? 

Yes, if you haven't heard the fellow destroyed himself. Not the actions of a rational actor.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Jace, Extat said:

Yes, if you haven't heard the fellow destroyed himself. Not the actions of a rational actor.

Again, for the 3rd time, rational =/= mentally healthy, same as irrational =/= mentally ill. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

32 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What do you want the US to do?  And I’ll drop the subject after this.

 

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Couple of things off the top of head… Stop vetoing UN resolutions? Stop sending bombs and ammo and who knows what else? Don’t go out of your way and be one of 3 countries (I think?) to defend the indefensible at the ICJ?

 

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Did it make you feel better writing all this nonsense? 

It did! Did it make you feel better saying the nonsense to start with? 

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It will be in the news today and gone tomorrow.

Title bet, go.

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I've shared my viewpoints, so that's a weird comment.

I've asked you repeatedly about various things and you've responded back with 'uh uh, no you'. 

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

What's weak is saying suicide is a good thing.

Who said that? I simply pointed out that it is not, as you said, the most ineffective means of action you can take. I also pointed out that saying it isn't altruistic is bullshit. Altruism doesn't mean good. 

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Yes nonviolent protests have lead to good outcomes, I just don't see much to suggest killing yourself has, also, that's not non-violent.

Suicidal actions have often led to successful outcomes from the point of view of the cause they're trying for. Again, one of the turning points in US public opinion of Vietnam was a Buddhist monk burning themselves alive outside the White House. We literally have a word for people doing suicidal actions for their cause which you also object to using here - but the word martyr still applies. 

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

And there are myriad ways you can make a much better impact without doing so as I've listed. Quit with the selective reading. 

You've suggested online protest, stealing kids, and donating money to someone who can't ever use it as 'a much better impact'. Is this your idea of pragmatic liberalism - doing things that make you feel good and have zero actual outcome?

 

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, for the 3rd time, rational =/= mentally healthy, same as irrational =/= mentally ill. 

But I didn't say "mentally ill", you did. 

I said disturbed or insane. 

I've known people who were disturbed. Hell, I've been disturbed. (I had a really bad year one time, went a lil' cookoo)

Irrational is a perfect companion to such a label. And I would hope that no-one on this board would condone someone in a vulnerable mental state: irrational, insane, disturbed, mentally ill, or otherwise; to take their own life for any reason.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Jace, Extat said:

But I didn't say "mentally ill", you did. 

I said disturbed or insane. 

I've known people who were disturbed. Hell, I've been disturbed. (I had a really bad year one time, went a lil' cookoo)

Irrational is a perfect companion to such a label. And I would hope that no-one on this board would condone someone in a vulnerable mental state: irrational, insane, disturbed, mentally ill, or otherwise; to take their own life for any reason.

But you're also saying that someone cannot be both rational and take their own life or sacrifice it for something else. I think we fundamentally disagree; people can and do often harm themselves to attempt to achieve something beyond them, and they are not acting in a disturbed or altered way or show any other sign of mental impairment. 

I get that you can think that, but I think that barring some other evidence that this person was not in full mental capacities you're simply wrong. Humans are capable of doing this and it is common enough that we have many different words for flavors of it. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

But I didn't say "mentally ill", you did. 

I said disturbed or insane. 
 

Right. And insane = mentally ill. 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Title bet, go.

You must enjoy losing.

Quote

I've asked you repeatedly about various things and you've responded back with 'uh uh, no you'.

No, I very clearly say my views. You often just skip over them because you want to make a point, not have a discussion.

 

Quote

Suicidal actions have often led to successful outcomes from the point of view of the cause they're trying for. Again, one of the turning points in US public opinion of Vietnam was a Buddhist monk burning themselves alive outside the White House. We literally have a word for people doing suicidal actions for their cause which you also object to using here - but the word martyr still applies. 

The Tet Offensive which happened in 1968 is considered the biggest turning point. Not some activist setting themself on fire and I believe the two most famous incidents happened years before that. 

Quote

You've suggested online protest, stealing kids, and donating money to someone who can't ever use it as 'a much better impact'. Is this your idea of pragmatic liberalism - doing things that make you feel good and have zero actual outcome?

Killing yourself for clicks sure as shit does less than trying to actually help people. 

[karaddin]

Isn't accepting the risk of sacrificing yourself for the sake of a cause you care about exactly what's going on when someone joins the military of a country?  This man had already made that choice in a way that you're all entirely ok with, he just moved it from a risk of self sacrifice to a guaranteed choice and for a cause less universally accepted.

Personally the choice to join the military seems pretty irrational to me, and while the risk of dying might be low most of the time, it's guaranteed to do harm to you/your humanity in the form of the training done to attempt to make you capable of taking the lives of the others.

12 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

If Biden were to step aside, I think it's likely a Wesley Clark would be selected to replace him, and without a primary to test that candidate, they will lose. 

This is really the crux of the issue - it's already too late for what I think needed to be done which was to hold a competitive primary. In an ideal world Biden could even still run in that primary and probably win, but it would at least have given a platform for another attempt at increasing the profile of future leaders. In reality as soon as the incumbent is running in the primary a bunch of people aren't going to view it as a genuine competitive one anymore and it's not like you can instruct people to not treat him as an incumbent and have that actually work.

So they've just got to try elevate the profile of others as much as possible under the circumstances and hope Biden keeps it together.

---

My pithy response above about the military aside I do have serious concerns with this form of protest, specifically it's potential to influence others with suicidal ideation to go through with it in a similar manner and that risk goes up if this is treated as having been successful and accomplished something. There's a lot of kids struggling with doomerism and framing their suicide as "doing something good for the world" on their way out is a real concern. 

I don't think that was the case with this man, this was protest first and foremost - those I'm worrying about would be suicide primarily with protest as an attempted justification. But that could be the legacy of his protest even when you accept his protest as legitimate and altruistic.

[Spockydog]

Oh, yeah, self-immolation is a totally pointless protest. A totally pointless protest that has spawned several pages of discussion here. And I'm pretty sure we are not the only ones discussing it.

Nations like Britain and America and Israel and Russia, nations who regularly go around perpetrating atrocities on civilians, largely rely on on public ignorance and apathy in order to get away with their crimes.

Trust me, Netenhayu doesn't give a shit about this, but when US servicemen start setting fire to themselves over the war crimes of their allies, you can bet your bollocks that Biden's arse is munching.

Edited February 27 by Spockydog

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

You must enjoy losing.

It's an easy bet. You're saying it won't be in the news tomorrow. All I have to do is find someone talking about it tomorrow. 

5 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No, I very clearly say my views. You often just skip over them because you want to make a point, not have a discussion.

So let's go over all the things you've not answered, shall we? 

How does an online protest help anything? Do you have any evidence of an online protest changing anyone's mind, much less any policy?

How does donating money to refugees when they cannot receive the aid already allocated help? 

How does attempting to adopt a refugee when the refugee coordinators themselves say don't do that help at all?

How does volunteering at a local charity help the lives of those that he's trying to save? And have any of those charities done anything more newsworthy than what he did?

5 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

The Tet Offensive which happened in 1968 is considered the biggest turning point. Not some activist setting themself on fire and I believe the two most famous incidents happened years before that. 

In terms of public outcry there is a very clear delineation in opinion before and after that event. 

5 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Killing yourself for clicks sure as shit does less than trying to actually help people. 

It's a bit more than for clicks. I guess it doesn't make you feel as good knowing that your online petition isn't actually doing anything at all other than feeding ad revenues somewhere? Again, weird to think that something that actually made the news, got his specific point of view and desire out there in virtually every major news organization out there and is getting people to talk about it is not effective, but volunteering at a local charity 7000 miles away is effective.