Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: Trump will absolutely encourage more people to die in Gaza. It's not talked about nearly enough but one of the turning points for Hamas was the US choosing to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital and the rest of the world just going along with it, and that was all on Trump. That still isn't the point. The point is that for a number of people, right now, voting for Biden means voting for someone who effectively encouraged the deaths of the people they care about. They may not vote for Trump - they probably won't - but it would be a remarkable thing to say to them to vote for someone who they view as complicit in their friends and family's deaths. So I ask again, Scot - can you understand why they may not want to do that? No. I cannot… because… the alternative is infinitely worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: The American electoral system is broken. It has been broken for quite some time. That said if you allow the election of the party that will end all elections… you will never have an opportunity to fix it… therefore allowing Trump to win is a horrible horrible option. If the bolded is actually true then the US is doomed anyway regardless of who wins this year's election - Biden winning just delays the inevitable for a measly 4 years if the bolded is true. Since the Republican party has a structural advantage with the electoral college as well as congressional maps then it's only a matter of time before there's a Republican trifecta. Kalbear, Larry of the Lawn and Kyoshi 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, Consigliere said: If the bolded is actually true then the US is doomed anyway regardless of who wins this year's election - Biden winning just delays the inevitable for a measly 4 years if the bolded is true. Since the Republican party has a structural advantage with the electoral college as well as congressional maps then it's only a matter of time before there's a Republican trifecta. And the accelerationist speaks. :head on desk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: No. I cannot… because… the alternative is infinitely worse. I think that's a lot easier to say when it isn't your friends and family that got killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 48 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: This Palestinian American puts the issue of the upcoming elections in what I thought was a very thoughtful manner when he phoned in on The Majority Report: I agree that it is a good discussion of the issue. I also agree that Biden is probably more supportive of Israel than many other Democrats would be. However, I don't think that Biden is supportive of Israel because of his personal relationship with Netanyahu. I have read several times that Biden is fed up with and actively dislikes Netanyahu. Biden is trying to find this middle path of both supporting Israel and negotiating behind the scenes for a ceasefire because support for Israel is broadly popular in America, and has been for 50+ years. He fears taking too hard a stand against Israel will cost him a lot of votes. But doing so also has means losing support amongst progressives and Arab-Americans, and it is quite possible he is underestimating that. It looks like he is betting that if he can take some credit for a ceasefire that tempers will have cooled amongst most Democratic voters that they'll support him by November. Will that bet pay off? I don't know. The Israeli-Gaza war feels like an issue where Biden will lose some votes no matter what he does. Edited February 27 by Maithanet kissdbyfire and Prince of the North 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: There are over 3 million Palestinians in Israeli-occupied territories, and they have relatives across the Arab world. The idea that you have to be specifically Palestinian in order to be related to them is as bizarre as thinking you have to be specifically Israeli in order to be related or know Israelis. Very fair point I did overlook and I horribly worded that part. I will still think the majority who say do not vote in November do not have those level of familial ties. Edited February 27 by TheKitttenGuard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I think that's a lot easier to say when it isn't your friends and family that got killed. And when even more will die if Trump takes office it seems incredibly absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy89 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Trump will absolutely encourage more people to die in Gaza. It's not talked about nearly enough but one of the turning points for Hamas was the US choosing to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital and the rest of the world just going along with it, and that was all on Trump. That still isn't the point. The point is that for a number of people, right now, voting for Biden means voting for someone who effectively encouraged the deaths of the people they care about. They may not vote for Trump - they probably won't - but it would be a remarkable thing to say to them to vote for someone who they view as complicit in their friends and family's deaths. So I ask again, Scot - can you understand why they may not want to do that? I think everbody can understand this emotional reaction in the moment. I just hope 6 months allows for enough time to also apply rational thought and that people will not make an emotional choice in the moment that very likely sooner than later they will bitterly regret. Edited February 27 by Job Snow Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: And when even more will die if Trump takes office it seems incredibly absurd. Sure! And they at least won't feel like they chose that as their option. We've had this debate repeatedly and I'm firmly on the side of all things being equal, vote for the lesser evil because it is less evil, but I also 100% can understand someone who has a far more personal connection to this being unable to vote for a person they hold responsible for their friends' deaths. And I think it is pretty unfair to them to not understand that, or worse actively shame them. Now, if you're just really sad about it? Woman up and deal with it. But for a whole lot of folks out there, especially in key states like Michigan, it's a lot more than just feeling sad. Larry of the Lawn and Kyoshi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Sure! And they at least won't feel like they chose that as their option. We've had this debate repeatedly and I'm firmly on the side of all things being equal, vote for the lesser evil because it is less evil, but I also 100% can understand someone who has a far more personal connection to this being unable to vote for a person they hold responsible for their friends' deaths. And I think it is pretty unfair to them to not understand that, or worse actively shame them. Now, if you're just really sad about it? Woman up and deal with it. But for a whole lot of folks out there, especially in key states like Michigan, it's a lot more than just feeling sad. You do you. And for the record my passionate and wonderful daughter voted in the SC Democratic primary for a candidate other than Biden because she cares. Edited February 27 by Ser Scot A Ellison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: And the accelerationist speaks. :head on desk: That's absolutely NOT accelerationism. It's just following the logic YOU used to come to the conclusion that a Trump victory in November means no more democracy. Because if that's the case, why are the people [maga crowd] that want that to happen going to stop? Accelerationism would be advocating for that right now. Which, again, no one seems to be doing here. You might think that's the logical result of their actions [not voting for Pres], but that is NOT clear. If someone in a non swing state doesn't vote for the President, nothing happens. It doesn't push the needle one way or the other. Edited February 27 by Larry of the Lawn Clarity Consigliere and Kyoshi 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: And the accelerationist speaks. :head on desk: I'm not American so I'm not participating in US elections. Doesn't change my point though. If what you claimed is in fact accurate then "the party that will end all elections" will be in power sooner rather than later given the broken electoral system which gives the GOP a structural advantage. kissdbyfire and Kyoshi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 48 minutes ago, Spockydog said: No. No. No. 'None of the above', or just not bothering to vote , is a perfectly valid democratic response when you've got nothing but a bunch of warmongering cunts on a ballot paper. If you don't pick a side, you don't get to complain. Full stop. Ran 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, Consigliere said: I'm not American so I'm not participating in US elections. Doesn't change my point though. If what you claimed is in fact accurate then "the party that will end all elections" will be in power sooner rather than later given the broken electoral system which gives the GOP a structural advantage. Ha, I was just going to quote your other post and say it’s certainly what people outside the US believe. US democracy is sliding down the mountain at greater and greater speed, and at the bottom there’s a swamp of toxic forms of government that democracy is going to sink into. It’s kinda like climate change, it’s happening faster than we originally imagined could be possible. Jace, Extat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Well, question is whether you regard Jews as an ethnic or a religious group. That'd be my objection, but then again anti-semites might disagree. Jews typically break down in three ways: ethnically, religiously and culturally. I for example identify with the first and third while not caring about the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 55 minutes ago, Spockydog said: No. No. No. 'None of the above', or just not bothering to vote , is a perfectly valid democratic response when you've got nothing but a bunch of warmongering cunts on a ballot paper. You don't get to tell anyone how they should vote. Well, you certainly don't need to worry about being compelled to vote--that's not happening in the US any time soon--but I wonder, what are you trying to achieve by abstaining from elections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: If you don't pick a side, you don't get to complain. Full stop. What about those who vote for an independent. I will be voting Green. And I will not stop complaining. kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: If you don't pick a side, you don't get to complain. Full stop. Hilarious. So it's either slow genocide with Biden, (which we aren't, per you, allowed to complain about), fast genocide with Trump, or don't vote and don't complain. Democracy! Kyoshi and kissdbyfire 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said: Well, you certainly don't need to worry about being compelled to vote--that's not happening in the US any time soon--but I wonder, what are you trying to achieve by abstaining from elections? The moral high ground. And read my posts. I will not be abstaining. I will be voting on the issue of the age. I will be voting Green. Edited February 27 by Spockydog kissdbyfire and Kyoshi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, Spockydog said: What about those who vote for an independent. I will be voting Green. And I will not stop complaining. In the US you have two choices. Voting independent when we're talking about the presidency is utterly pointless. 4 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said: Hilarious. So it's either slow genocide with Biden, (which we aren't, per you, allowed to complain about), fast genocide with Trump, or don't vote and don't complain. Democracy! Right, pick the lesser of two evils if that's how you view it. Doing nothing is a bullshit way to act, especially if you think it gives you some false sense of moral superiority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts