James Fenimore Cooper XXII Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 I argued why the Freys will not all die. The Freys do not deserve to die because the Starks were guilty of breaking an oath. The demise of the family is likely if a Stark or a Baratheon were to win King Aerys Targaryen's throne. However, I do not find that likely nor desirable. Euron winning the throne will be the death of everybody. I still believe it will be Daenerys who will win the throne in the end and justice from Her Majesty will give the Freys the best hope for fairness. There is another leader who can give the Freys fair justice and that is Aegon Blackfyre. It will be more of a political move for the latter since he will require the support of powerful houses like the Freys. Aegon could offer to pardon the Freys if they succeed, and that is easily accepted because the Starks were rebelling at the time of the wedding, in exchange for economic and military assistance from Walder. Darth Sidious, Sydney Mae and The Lord of the Crossing 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoyfulJoy Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 (edited) Out of being curious, was Frey right in killing (near) everybody under the guise of peace, because Robb broke his promise to marry a Frey? For the record, no I don't think the frey should die, it's just a family house, not like some kind of evil organization, if anything I think the ones that should die, are the ones reasonable for the red wedding, and then the Frey would basically rebrand. Edited April 24 by JoyfulJoy Prince of the North, The Gizzard of Oz and Ser Arthurs Dawn 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gizzard of Oz Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 15 minutes ago, JoyfulJoy said: Out of being curious, where Frey right in killing (near) everybody under the guise of peace, because Robb broke his promise to marry a Frey? For the record, no I don't think the frey should die, it's just a family house, not like some kind of evil organization, if anything I think the ones that should die, are the ones reasonable for the red wedding, and then the Frey would basically rebrand. I could be persuaded to see it this way if the punishment is limited to Walder, Lothar, and Black Walder. And said punishment is exile to the wall for the boys and confiscating of some land for Walder. Not the bridge but the taking of a few acres of farmland is fair. You have to remember that Walder and his sons behaved honorably until Robb Stark betrayed them. That was shameful behavior on the part of Robb Stark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: The Freys do not deserve to die because the Starks were guilty of breaking an oath. The whole realm was shocked by the disproportionate payback of the Red Wedding. The Freys do not get a pass. KingoftheRiversandtheHills, Prince of the North, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 The Freys enjoy Lannister protection. Hoster, Robb, and Tywin are gone. Walder outlived them all. He doesn’t need Aegon’s protection right now. The closest threats are the wolfpack and the Brotherhood. Roslin’s child is a future threat. I wouldn’t want Jeyne to birth Robb’s baby. That’s no good for peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 So, Robb breaks a promise, and offers to make amends. In response, Walder Frey and his spawn murder 3,500 unsuspecting people, commit treason (against both Robb and Edmure), and they do so in violation of the in-universe equivalent of diplomatic immunity. There is an utter lack of proportionality in such revenge. In-universe, it is seen as justification for the deaths of the entire family. KingoftheRiversandtheHills, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, Prince of the North and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 (edited) 7 hours ago, SeanF said: So, Robb breaks a promise, and offers to make amends. In response, Walder Frey and his spawn murder 3,500 unsuspecting people, commit treason (against both Robb and Edmure), and they do so in violation of the in-universe equivalent of diplomatic immunity. There is an utter lack of proportionality in such revenge. In-universe, it is seen as justification for the deaths of the entire family. Its scummy as hell but its not just revenge, its a calculated ambush spurred by both wanting revenge and walders cold cowardly reassasment of robbs chances to win , its a massacre to end the war utterly and be tied deeply into the winning regime Edited April 24 by astarkchoice KingoftheRiversandtheHills 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 (edited) 26 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Its scummy as hell but its not just revenge, its a calculated ambush spurred by both wanting revenge and walders cold cowardly reassasment of robbs chances to win , its a massacre to end the war utterly and be tied deeply into the winning regime And, it is so utterly stupid. If you're worried about the survival of your House, and thinking more than one move ahead, you'd know this is something you would not want to touch with a barge pole. Tywin Lannister is never your friend. Do this, and Tywin owns you lock, stock, and barrel. He is your only protector, but if he needs to conciliate the lords of the Riverlands and the North, well he now has the perfect scapegoat to give to them. It would be similar to Cesare Borgia executing Vitellozzo Vitelli and other captains, who had done his dirty work, and whose usefulness was now at an end. Edited April 24 by SeanF Prince of the North, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, Northern Sword and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 21 minutes ago, SeanF said: And, it is so utterly stupid. If you're worried about the survival of your House, and thinking more than one move ahead, you'd know this is something you would not want to touch with a barge pole. Tywin Lannister is never your friend. Do this, and Tywin owns you lock, stock, and barrel. He is your only protector, but if he needs to conciliate the lords of the Riverlands and the North, well he now has the perfect scapegoat to give to them. It would be similar to Cesare Borgia executing Vitellozzo Vitelli and other captains, who had done his dirty work, and whose usefulness was now at an end. Which is why part of the deal was soo many marriages ! Roose and tywins sister already married into the freys pre betrayal then there were 3 manderly- frey marriages and 3 more to lannisters (one being a bastard though) on top of house frey of riverrun being created. The red wedding planners would give a world where theres: House lannsiter of winterfell (sansa and tyrion) House frey of riverrun and house frey of the twins House bolton of hornwood (ramsay would need something) and bolton of the dreadfort lord of the north! House lannister of darry (gatehouse ami and lancel) House baelish of harrenhall overlord of the riverlands and husband + actining lord of the vale Devan lannnister to marry a frey and 3 manderlyd to do the same in a merling vourt filled with frey spies and kiss asses A bastard frey to joy hill (probably has a sweet dowry provided by uncle tywin) The remaining free karstarks plotting to have karrion killed to set up a pro bolton karhold Its an ugly future they set up, thankfully they couldnt have forseen that its unwinding due to all kinds of insane circumstances !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 On 4/23/2024 at 11:27 AM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: I argued why the Freys will not all die. The Freys do not deserve to die because the Starks were guilty of breaking an oath. The demise of the family is likely if a Stark or a Baratheon were to win King Aerys Targaryen's throne. However, I do not find that likely nor desirable. Euron winning the throne will be the death of everybody. I still believe it will be Daenerys who will win the throne in the end and justice from Her Majesty will give the Freys the best hope for fairness. There is another leader who can give the Freys fair justice and that is Aegon Blackfyre. It will be more of a political move for the latter since he will require the support of powerful houses like the Freys. Aegon could offer to pardon the Freys if they succeed, and that is easily accepted because the Starks were rebelling at the time of the wedding, in exchange for economic and military assistance from Walder. The Freys aren't going to be wiped out. It won't be because they do or don't deserve it, it will be because the people with the power to take vengeance will choose mercy. House Cambodia and Ser Arthurs Dawn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingoftheRiversandtheHills Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) On 4/23/2024 at 1:27 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: I argued why the Freys will not all die. The Freys do not deserve to die because the Starks were guilty of breaking an oath. Hilarious. So if a man breaks an oath, you must kill him and banner men by breaking a sacred guest rite. On 4/23/2024 at 1:27 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: The demise of the family is likely if a Stark or a Baratheon were to win King Aerys Targaryen's throne. However, I do not find that likely nor desirable. Euron winning the throne will be the death of everybody. I still believe it will be Daenerys who will win the throne in the end and justice from Her Majesty will give the Freys the best hope for fairness. There is another leader who can give the Freys fair justice and that is Aegon Blackfyre. It will be more of a political move for the latter since he will require the support of powerful houses like the Freys. Aegon could offer to pardon the Freys if they succeed, and that is easily accepted because the Starks were rebelling at the time of the wedding, in exchange for economic and military assistance from Walder. It really depends on Jon and the rest of the Starks. If a Stark survives (including Jon in this) they would have to make an example of the Freys. Edited April 25 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Fenimore Cooper XXII Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 On 4/24/2024 at 9:00 PM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said: Hilarious. So if a man breaks an oath, you must kill him and banner men by breaking a sacred guest rite. It really depends on Jon and the rest of the Starks. If a Stark survives (including Jon in this) they would have to make an example of the Freys. Oaths are also sacred. Robb was a complete trash for breaking his. Under peaceful times such a disreputable act would be condemned but in a time of war when the Freys honored their end of the deal and Robb refused to fulfill his part it is more serious. Robb took advantage of the Freys. Such is the fate of banner men when the lord they followed is an idiot like Robb who did something stupid. "Make an example of the Freys" is not justified. Talk about Jon. His offense is a more serious crime than Robb's. Jon is not in any moral position to punish anybody and set an example. It's hypocrisy. His oath breaking is the worst because he had the task of protecting life itself from the White Walkers. It's treason. Darth Sidious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Fenimore Cooper XXII Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 On 4/24/2024 at 2:12 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: The Freys aren't going to be wiped out. It won't be because they do or don't deserve it, it will be because the people with the power to take vengeance will choose mercy. Receiving mercy or executions is dependent on who the people in power will be. The severity and the fairness of it depend on who is on the throne. A Baratheon or a Stark will mean slaughter and that is not justice. The outcome will be corrupted justice and something I would not like to have happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Fenimore Cooper XXII Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 On 4/23/2024 at 5:16 PM, JoyfulJoy said: Out of being curious, was Frey right in killing (near) everybody under the guise of peace, because Robb broke his promise to marry a Frey? For the record, no I don't think the frey should die, it's just a family house, not like some kind of evil organization, if anything I think the ones that should die, are the ones reasonable for the red wedding, and then the Frey would basically rebrand. The pact was more than a marriage engagement. It was a wartime alliance where the consequences for all parties are very serious. Trust was expected and Robb was trash for not paying what he agreed to after the Freys gave him loyal wartime service. What happened to the banner men was unfortunate but that is the expected fate because Robb could not be punished without removing them out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted Monday at 01:25 PM Share Posted Monday at 01:25 PM It’s better for everybody to move on and forget the red wedding. There were faults on both sides. There was provocation involved even if the payback was severe. Because Lady Stoneheart carried out executions without fair trials evens things. She killed Walder’s handicapped son. A son for a son. This is going to be a delicate political situation. The solution should be political instead of violence. Both sides make formal apologies and sign a treaty of peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted Monday at 01:51 PM Share Posted Monday at 01:51 PM 22 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: It’s better for everybody to move on and forget the red wedding. There were faults on both sides. There was provocation involved even if the payback was severe. Because Lady Stoneheart carried out executions without fair trials evens things. She killed Walder’s handicapped son. A son for a son. This is going to be a delicate political situation. The solution should be political instead of violence. Both sides make formal apologies and sign a treaty of peace. The slaughter was so disproportionate and, it was presumed, all but wiped out a major 10000-year-old family line that was warden of the Kingdom's biggest region, there's no way it can be swept away by a kumbaya. This is Westeros - massive massive retribution is required. Northern Sword and Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted Monday at 02:08 PM Share Posted Monday at 02:08 PM 19 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: Receiving mercy or executions is dependent on who the people in power will be. The severity and the fairness of it depend on who is on the throne. A Baratheon or a Stark will mean slaughter and that is not justice. The outcome will be corrupted justice and something I would not like to have happen. 'A Baratheon or a Stark will mean slaughter' Why? 'The outcome will be corrupted justice and something I would not like to have happen.' I have to say that it's the virtue and integrity of this community that's kept me coming back for all of these years spent waiting for Winds. House Cambodia and Northern Sword 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted Monday at 04:54 PM Share Posted Monday at 04:54 PM 3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: It’s better for everybody to move on and forget the red wedding. There were faults on both sides. There was provocation involved even if the payback was severe. Because Lady Stoneheart carried out executions without fair trials evens things. She killed Walder’s handicapped son. A son for a son. This is going to be a delicate political situation. The solution should be political instead of violence. Both sides make formal apologies and sign a treaty of peace. This is Westeros. Imagine the kind of retribution that Genghis Khan visited on Otrar, after Inalchuk, the governor, slew his envoys. That is what is coming to The Twins. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted Monday at 06:16 PM Share Posted Monday at 06:16 PM 1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said: It’s better for everybody to move on and forget the red wedding. There were faults on both sides. There was provocation involved even if the payback was severe. Because Lady Stoneheart carried out executions without fair trials evens things. She killed Walder’s handicapped son. A son for a son. This is going to be a delicate political situation. The solution should be political instead of violence. Both sides make formal apologies and sign a treaty of peace. Better for who ? The North and Riverlands not only had thousands of soldiers killed at the RW, but Lords and Heirs of major houses were killed and captured. That wont be forgiven or forgotten. Lady Stoneheart is an appetizer. The Frey's already have a poor reputation. Now this. The time for a political solution was before the RW, now it is too late for that. The main course is coming, vengeance and justice will be served. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted Monday at 06:41 PM Share Posted Monday at 06:41 PM 5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: It’s better for everybody to move on and forget Why don't you apply this logic to Walder being slighted in the first place? Northern Sword, Ser Arthurs Dawn and Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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