The ASOIAF wiki thread

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

the retaking of Kayce in 132 AC

Still not sure about that one. There is no mention of Kayce falling to the Ironborn at all in F&B, and the text indicates it was successfully protected rather than retaken:

Desperate to protect her people, Lady Johanna at last donned a man’s mail to lead the men of Lannisport and Casterly Rock against the foe. The songs tell of how she slew a dozen ironmen beneath the walls of Kayce, but those may be safely put aside as the work of drunken singers (Johanna carried a banner into battle, not a sword). Her courage did help inspire her westermen, however, for the raiders were soon routed and Kayce was saved. 

The fighting took place beneath the walls, not on the walls, and usually 'routing the enemy' doesn't refer to the taking of a city (in this case the enemy would be trapped inside). 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

26 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Still not sure about that one.

Ok maybe not retaking but there were two fight around Kayce. After the first one, Dalton takes the widow of the Knight of Kayce as a salt wife and the second is Johanna's victory.

I'm not sure where those ironborn came from when Johanna attacked. Maybe it was simply a raid on the town and it failed unlike the first one.

[The Wondering Wolf]

47 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

there were two fight around Kayce

That's exactly what I'm not sure about. Wouldn't be the first time TWOAF got it wrong. Nothing in F&B indicates Kayce was taken at any point. Ok, maybe the fact that Dalton took the widow of the Knight of Kayce as salt wife, but I would have expected some mention of the event. Anyway, we won't solve it this time. Thanks for clearing up the uncle thing.

[Ran]

From George's original Iron Islands piece for TWoIaF, which was written after he had written the Dance material, just before we locked the  book:

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Further raids and depredations followed.  All up and down the western coasts the longships sailed, raiding as they had in days of old.   The Red Kraken himself led the attack that captured Kayce, the walled port town that had been founded by Gundor Goodbrother when the Casterlys still held Casterly Rock.

That was inconsistent with what he had written before, but we had supposed that whatever he wrote last superceded what came previously, and so TWoIaF was published with Kayce having been taken.

However, with F&B, yes, George decided to go back with his earlier version (i.e. it's what he had written in the Dance material originally), where Joanna Lannister and the westerlords were able to rescue Kayce from being captured. We've a long-standing note that we've sent in to RH about fixing that in a later edition ("nearly captured Kayce" is I think the wording we suggested) but I'm not sure if it's gone through.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Ran

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

"the walled port town that had been founded by Gundor Goodbrother when the Casterlys still held Casterly Rock"

I wish GRRM would post another draft of a chapter from TWOIAF the way he did for the Westerlands.

These little details are so cool that it pains me to think of what else there could be lying around in his papers.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Two things:

1) I think Raymont Baratheon's page should be taken down since F & B removed pretty much any chance of him being canon

2) The BTS on Nymeria's page says the burning of her ships may have been inspired by Cortes but wouldn't an equally likely, if not more likely, comparison be Tariq ibn Ziyad, after whom Gibraltar is named?

[direpupy]

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Two things:

1) I think Raymont Baratheon's page should be taken down since F & B removed pretty much any chance of him being canon

2) The BTS on Nymeria's page says the burning of her ships may have been inspired by Cortes but wouldn't an equally likely, if not more likely, comparison be Tariq ibn Ziyad, after whom Gibraltar is named?

1) He is a character mentioned in a published book even if his status has since become unclear, so his page should not be removed but his status as potentially removed from canon should be clearly included in his page. If you do not do this then people who read about him in they early prints of TWOIAF are going to ask why there is no page on him.

2) It should have neither, unless we know for certain what inspired it, if there was an inspiration at all it could have come to GRRM as an original idea, this is why BTS should always have something to back it up/link it to GRRM.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

9 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

1) I think Raymont Baratheon's page should be taken down since F & B removed pretty much any chance of him being canon

I agree with @direpupy. This subject has been discussed in the past and that's why Raymont's canonicity has been explained in the BTS section. However, as the BTS section is at the bottom of the page, I moved this information into a note at the top of the article to gain on visibility around the issue while respecting the consensus we arrived at the last time.

[Oneiros Drakontos]

On 6/4/2023 at 2:54 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I agree with @direpupy. This subject has been discussed in the past and that's why Raymont's canonicity has been explained in the BTS section. However, as the BTS section is at the bottom of the page, I moved this information into a note at the top of the article to gain on visibility around the issue while respecting the consensus we arrived at the last time.

 

Such a note may also be useful for Hunnimore, I think, even though his article is shorter than Raymont's.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Oneiros Drakontos

[Mindset]

All right, since this has become a very silly edit war- @direpupy, what, exactly, is your issue with Riotarttherite's portrait of Valarr Targaryen?  You state he looks "like a child", but he looks no younger than the artist's other portraits of Matarys or Kiera of Tyrosh, or indeed no younger than any of the other adult Targaryen portraits the artist has been doing in this style and that are being used as the default for many wiki articles. If you look at the artist's full portrait of Daeron II's family, you can see Valarr is most definitely an adult, and while the style of this painting is not quite the same, Valarr in particular is nearly identical to his individual portrait. For that matter, Riotarttherite's portrait looks no younger than the artwork of him with Kiera that you left on the page. The portrait doesn't even look any younger than the Mike S. Miller THK graphic novel crop that used to be the main image. Furthermore, Valarr died between the ages of 16 to 27, not even very old?

I'm sorry, I truly do not understand the objection to keeping the portrait on Valarr's article, especially now that it is no longer the main image. It keeps consistency with his relatives' articles, and is a very nice style as well.

[direpupy]

3 hours ago, Mindset said:

All right, since this has become a very silly edit war- @direpupy, what, exactly, is your issue with Riotarttherite's portrait of Valarr Targaryen?  You state he looks "like a child", but he looks no younger than the artist's other portraits of Matarys or Kiera of Tyrosh, or indeed no younger than any of the other adult Targaryen portraits the artist has been doing in this style and that are being used as the default for many wiki articles. If you look at the artist's full portrait of Daeron II's family, you can see Valarr is most definitely an adult, and while the style of this painting is not quite the same, Valarr in particular is nearly identical to his individual portrait. For that matter, Riotarttherite's portrait looks no younger than the artwork of him with Kiera that you left on the page. The portrait doesn't even look any younger than the Mike S. Miller THK graphic novel crop that used to be the main image. Furthermore, Valarr died between the ages of 16 to 27, not even very old?

I'm sorry, I truly do not understand the objection to keeping the portrait on Valarr's article, especially now that it is no longer the main image. It keeps consistency with his relatives' articles, and is a very nice style as well.

I disagree with it looking the same in terms of age to they others, certainly in the family portrait by Riotarttherite he at least looks like he is an adult. A young adult but an adult, not a teenager in his early to mid teens like in they individual picture by Riotarttherite. As to Matarys he is younger then his brother so here its fitting he looks young, and i don't think Kiera in her individual picture looks like a young teenager.

The style is the same as they other depictions of Riotarttherite that was never they issue and i am very fond of many of the pictures of this artist, but this particular one just misses the mark completely and visually ads nothing to the article. Just because we have a picture does not mean it has to be part of they article. As to the picture with Kiera i left that one because there is no other picture of them together available.

PS: I do really like the art of Admundsen you have been adding to article's, i am glad you got permission for those.

Edited June 8, 2023 by direpupy

[Nittanian]

The Stone Drum of Dragonstone is described as a massive tower.

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Lord Stannis would be found in the Chamber of the Painted Table, atop the Stone Drum, Dragonstone's central keep, so named for the way its ancient walls boomed and rumbled during storms. (ACOK Prologue)

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Beyond, a high stone bridge arched over emptiness to the massive central tower called the Stone Drum. (ASOS Davos IV)

The castle's Great Hall is shaped like a dragon.

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The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. (ACOK Prologue)

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And the dragons were everywhere. The Great Hall was a dragon lying on its belly. Men entered through its open mouth. (ASOS Davos V)

In Fire & Blood, Gyldayn writes,

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Androw Farman was not to be found in his bedchamber nor the queen's, nor the great hall, nor the stables, nor the sept, nor Aegon's Garden. (F&B Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I)

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Not long after, as the king lay in the Stone Drum's great hall, his broken legs bound and splinted, the first of Queen Rhaenyra's ravens arrived from Duskendale. (F&B The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Overthrown)

The wiki currently describes the Great Hall as part of the Stone Drum citing Fire & Blood. @Ran, do you know if this is accurate or if instead they are separate buildings (with the Stone Drum having its own great hall separate from the dragon-shaped Great Hall)?

[Ran]

I think the correct read is that the Stone Drum has a "great hall", and then the Great Hall is a separate, dragon-shaped structure.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Ran

[Nittanian]

Thank you!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:25 AM, Oneiros Drakontos said:

I have a doubt about the exact year of the Battle of the Bells. In the wiki page the date is 283, but if I recall correctly there's some unofficial timelines that indicate (late) 282 as the actual year. In general, it seems to me that the dates of the events of Robert's Rebellion are not always clear. Is 283 correct?

 

On 5/30/2023 at 1:10 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Do you recall where we can find this unofficial timeline ? That would be helpful to answer your question. In the meantime, the wiki has a page dedicated to the calculation of events. This page could do with an update but that's a good start.

Jon Connington states it has been 17 years since the battle (ADWD chapter 24) somewhere mid-300 AC. This would place the battle in 283. Had the battle taken place in 282 AC, the man would have stated it had occurred 18 years before. Compare it to the statements of Elia Martell's death. Just before Joffrey's wedding, in 299 AC, it is still considered 16 years ago, and just after Joff's wedding, it is considered 17 years ago. Elia died in the lattwr half of 283 AC.

The Battle of the Bells would have taken place at the start of the year though, since Robb Stark was conceived after the battle and was still born in 283.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen That seems good to me. I hope GRRM has better notes on Robert's Rebellion timeline than what we currently know because there are gaps of months where armies appear to do nothing. Maybe he can introduce some smaller battles here and there to give the armies something to do and to have a better understanding of their movement and the timeline in general.

[Oneiros Drakontos]

In the Houses by Region templates, the houses listed below the Great Houses are called Noble Houses. Wouldn't it be more accurate call them Lordly Houses, since they are ruled by lords? Great, Knightly and Masterly Houses are noble, too.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Oneiros Drakontos I would avoid using the term "Noble Houses" as like you said this term englobes the whole nobility.

Great Houses, Lordly Houses, Knightly Houses and "Other Houses" for those who don't fit the other 3 categories.

[The Wondering Wolf]

F&B error for the errata page:

And truly, with Vhagar dead at last, the oldest and largest living dragon in all Westeros was Vermithor, once the mount of the Old King, now that of Hard Hugh the bastard. (F&B, Rhaenyra Overthrown)

At this point the lords in Tumbleton don't know about Dreamfyre's death, so Vermithor can be the largest dragon, but not the oldest one. If the lords knew about Dreamfyre's death (or the line was meant to be an objective statement by Gyldayn), Dreamfyre should be mentioned together with Vhagar. So either with Vhagar dead at last, the and largest living dragon in all Westeros was Vermithor or with Vhagar and Dreamfyre dead at last, the oldest and largest living dragon in all Westeros was Vermithor.

 

Then there was an addition to the Rise of the Dragon errata page that I am not sure about. While F&B doesn't say that Rhaenyra knew about Daemon's death, the text does not exclude the possibility either. It would mean the Shepherd could do his gatherings and preachings for a longer period of time, but that is not impossible. @Ran Can you confirm that Rhaenyra knowing about Daemon's death is not an error?

[Nittanian]

I created articles for septas and septons in case if anyone wants to expand / rearrange.