The Dagger and the Coin - SPOILER THREAD

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Well although we don't know how big those spoilers are, it certainly spoils Cithrin's plot relative to her sample chapter, where she is just figuring out that Antea is expanding aggressively.

[Guy Kilmore]

After finishing ADWD, I decided to give this a try. Honestly, I was just reading thinking it won't be good enough, just because they used a GRRM blurb (I'm weird like that hard to explain). But slowly the book grasped me and now I'm thinking about going bck to reading the book instead of playing videogames! I just read the chapter where Marcus kills Opal and it just occured to me Kit is the guy running away from priests in the prologue! Damn how did I miss it. I swear there was some scene before where it was hinted, he told someone something about a lie, hinting at it but damn I can't find it now...

I really love the %40 I read so far, I hope it keeps the quality and I hear 2nd book is even better. I will make sure at least 1 person other than me read this book and spread the word. Only thing that's bothering me is I'm playing Diablo 3 lately and Cithrin is Leah in my mind...she is my favourite character in the book, ı wish I managed to imagine a unique face for her but no...she just looks like Leah to me :S

I think my tip-off that that Kit was the apostate was near the beginning when he basically talked the Bandit in missing him with the bow and arrow.

My crazed theory. Master Kit and Marcus Wester's wild and crazy adventure is going to end up having something to do with waking a dragon up from its nap.

Oh, and Daniel Abraham, thanks for both the Long Prince Quartet and the Dagger and the Coin, I have enjoyed them greatly.

[DragonAge93]

Man, I'm obsessed with Dragon's Path right now. Although I have one question: what do the races look like? I know some of tusks and whatnot, but do they look human other than some natural deformancy? And what race is strictly human, like us? Is Marcus Wester human, and Geder? Other than that, I am really going to enjoy this series. The first book is already grasping!

[RedEyedGhost]

Man, I'm obsessed with Dragon's Path right now. Although I have one question: what do the races look like? I know some of tusks and whatnot, but do they look human other than some natural deformancy? And what race is strictly human, like us? Is Marcus Wester human, and Geder? Other than that, I am really going to enjoy this series. The first book is already grasping!

This should help you.

[Underfoot]

I just burned through the first two books in all of 6 days- a really impressive track record for me, lately. I could not put them down. I don't even know where to begin with how much I enjoyed this series.

Geder's arc has just been awesome, and I totally think it's believable. Yes, at the beginning he just seemed like a lovable dork, but everything he's done has been self-serving, and he really doesn't have a moral compass. To believably go from a lovable dork to a genocidal maniac that I can still somewhat relate to (e.g., he doesn't want people to dress him, he still has no idea how to behave in court- like when he runs after Cithrin, etc) is an impressive characterization feat.

Dawson, as the other "bad" POV was also a joy to read. I could rail against the things he said or thought, but I couldn't help but like him. I think that is partly influenced by how much he loved his family and hated the priests. I just flat out loved Cithrin and Marcus, even though they sometimes felt a bit Mary/Gary Sue.

One thing that did annoy me, though, was Abraham's tendency to use one word answers to something, like "Are you going to the market today, Dawson?" "Am." It worked for the Yardem/Marcus dynamic, but when it started leaking into Dawson, it got on my nerves a bit.

I definitely hope that we get to see a dragon at some point. Can't wait for the 3rd book to be released this spring!

[Racker]

I have a question for Daniel. When you picture the characters from this story speaking, in your mind do they have American or British accents? Probably sounds like an odd question, but I've been thinking a bit lately about the idea of accents in fantasy, particularly about how on film, fantasy characters are almost always portrayed with (sometimes bad) British accents, even if the world being portrayed has little in common with historical England.

It struck me that while reading this story, I pictured almost all of the characters as having American accents, particularly Marcus and Yardem, though I normally read 'fantasy' characters as having British accents. Even Dawson, who I thought of as having a 'classy' American accent, like a radio announcer from the 1960s (pronouncing the 'h' in 'white', for example). Perhaps the dialogue is more 'American' than usual for a fantasy story, or maybe it's just me.

[Wilbur]

The Dragon's Path is an interesting book from the perspective that almost all the POV characters are repulsive or at least have strongly unredeeming qualities.

- Geder is a wise fool, lapping up books and knowledge without ever developing a moral sense or a political sense or even much common sense. This leads to him making Machiavellian decisions and becoming a mass murderer, so that even if he has done the right thing for his king and country, he is still a mass murderer.

- Dawson is a hidebound reactionary who stands for class distinction and slavery under the guise of loyalty to his king.

- Cithrin is a ward of the bank who loves banking, is dependent upon the bank and only feels complete while engaging in banking. As the last few years of utter and continuing economic destruction show us, bankers seek to extract all the economic value out of a nation or people, sucking them dry and leaving the husk to move onto their next victim. Thus even though the single decent main character Marcus cares for her as a daughter, as a reader her character is as repugnant as if she was a vampire.

Nevertheless, the author skilfully pulls the reader into the tale and keeps him or her turning the pages.

[polishgenius]

- Cithrin is a ward of the bank who loves banking, is dependent upon the bank and only feels complete while engaging in banking. As the last few years of utter and continuing economic destruction show us, bankers seek to extract all the economic value out of a nation or people, sucking them dry and leaving the husk to move onto their next victim. Thus even though the single decent main character Marcus cares for her as a daughter, as a reader her character is as repugnant as if she was a vampire.

I don't think this is the case at all (it certainly wasn't meant to be, if the points kcf's conversation with Abraham linked years ago early in the topic raised are any judge). Banking and bankers aren't intrinsically a bad thing any more than any other human institution is, they've just been very very badly run. Cithrin's flaws come from her recklessness and overconfidence and sure, there's a link there to the current situation, but I don't think describing her as a vampire just coz she's a vampire is fair.

I do agree, Abraham's skill at having each character have some nuance so the bad guys have their understandable side and the good guys their flaws is an outstanding feature of this series. Obviously he's not the only one to do this, but I think his skill at tangling everything up so good things come out of bad motives and bad out of good is uncommon in fantasy.

[red snow]

I'm not sure that's how banks are historically. Usually a country's rise to power has been strongly associated with a powerful bank and is more symbiotic - the more money a country makes via the bank, the more money the bank makes. This doesn't seem to be the case at the moment but I don't think that makes Abraham's economics false.

[Jerol]

Daniel, if you're out there in the Interwebs, how the hell do you get so much written in such a short time? A new Dagger and Coin book, a new Expanse book. You're making us struggling wannabe novelists feel inadequate.

[RedEyedGhost]

Daniel, if you're out there in the Interwebs, how the hell do you get so much written in such a short time? A new Dagger and Coin book, a new Expanse book. You're making us struggling wannabe novelists feel inadequate.

And don't forget the new Black Sun's Daughter book coming out next month.

[aidan]

Daniel, if you're out there in the Interwebs, how the hell do you get so much written in such a short time? A new Dagger and Coin book, a new Expanse book. You're making us struggling wannabe novelists feel inadequate.

Ass-in-seat.

[DanielAbraham]

Daniel, if you're out there in the Interwebs, how the hell do you get so much written in such a short time? A new Dagger and Coin book, a new Expanse book. You're making us struggling wannabe novelists feel inadequate.

Ass in seat helps a lot. Also I don't start any close editing until I have a complete draft. And I know it's this or go back to doing tech support.

[red snow]

Ass in seat helps a lot. Also I don't start any close editing until I have a complete draft. And I know it's this or go back to doing tech support.

It's good to have fear as an incentive :)

Do you do set hours or are you just in a productive groove these days?

[Werthead]

The Dagger and the Coin #3: The Tyrant's Law by Daniel Abraham

The armies of Antea have conquered Asterilhold, but Geder Palliako, the Regent, allows his troops no time for rest. His plans, and those of the cult of the spider goddess, have taken on a note of urgency as they try to unearth the conspiracy that resulted in the death of the last King of Antea. In Camnipol, the disgraced wife of the traitor Dawson is working to both reestablish herself and her household and to bring about Geder's downfall. In the wilderness of the southern jungles, Marcus Wester and the renegade spider priest Kit are searching for a powerful weapon to use against the cult. And in the city of Suddapal Cithrin is apprenticed to an experienced banker to complete her training. But as the armies of Antea advance, Cithrin discovers that making money may be less important than finding a good cause on which to spend it.

The Tyrant's Law is the third volume in the five-volume The Dagger and the Coin, bringing this series past its halfway point. Those who've read The Dragon's Path and The King's Blood will know what to expect: well-crafted characters in an interesting (if not overtly original) world taking part in a plot inspired by a mixture of Babylon 5, Firefly and the real-life history of the Medicis. Like many such epic fantasy series with a number of entwining plots and character arcs, the series risks getting more diffuse the further it goes on, but Abraham prevents sprawl by maintaining a tight grip on a small number of POV characters: the entire plot unfolds from the POVs of Cithrin, Marcus, Clara (Dawson's widow) and Geder alone. This keeps the pace brisk and the word-count low, though not the page-count; due to a questionable decision to print the book in a font so large I briefly thought it was the edition for the hard of seeing, the book is exactly 500 pages in length, which seems rather unnecessary.

Still, The Tyrant's Law is a very good fantasy novel. Abraham has always been more interested in the nuances of characters than in massive battles and magical fireworks, and his most enviable skill is developing characters concisely and establishing convincing depths within them. So whilst we have no new POV characters, all of the returning faces get new dimensions added to them and more development into fully-rounded individuals. Geder becomes more accomplished in the arts of political intrigue, Clara becomes a convincing intriguer and Cithrin, already a skilled financier, learns some things about family and responsibility. Though not POV characters, both Yardem and Kit also develop in intriguing ways. Abraham undercuts some traditional epic fantasy tropes as well, such as turning a Conan-esque raid on a temple into a moment of profound character and spiritual revelation.

In some areas The Tyrant's Law is a bit of a let-down on The King's Blood. There's a lot of wandering around the countryside and at two separate times the same characters head into the wilderness to find a secret magical MacGuffin, giving rise to a feeling of repetition (though again Abraham subverts expectations with a surprisingly epic flashback ending). Cithrin being reluctantly apprenticed to yet another Medean bank executive (albeit a rather different character) and learning valuable life lessons also feels a bit over-familiar. The Tyrant's Law is a middle volume and showing some of the weaknesses of that position, but overcomes most of them through some solid plotting and decent characterisation.

If there is one major criticism that can be made of the series, it's that Abraham has deliberately set out to write something more traditional after the relative commercial disappointment of his debut sequence, the lyrical and imaginative Long Price Quartet. As a result, whilst Long Price felt like it was written from the heart, Dagger and the Coin sometimes feels a little too artificially-constructed and a little too knowing in its references. This isn't a major problem, but it does make one feel that this series is going to end up in the 'enjoyably good series' pile rather than the 'modern fantasy classics', where Long Price firmly resides. Still, with two more books to go, Abraham still has time to elevate the series to a new level.

The Tyrant's Law (****½) will be published in the UK and USA on 14 May.

[Jerol]

Damn the search on this site. I want to talk about Caliban's War but the search won't function. Shall I start a new thread and risk chastisement, or just go into a corner and mutter to myself?

[RedEyedGhost]

Damn the search on this site. I want to talk about Caliban's War but the search won't function. Shall I start a new thread and risk chastisement, or just go into a corner and mutter to myself?

Do a site search on google:

caliban's war site:http://asoiaf.westeros.org

and you'll get this thread.

[Jerol]

Much thanks!

[Emo Jon Snow]

Just waiting for my copy to get here in the mail. I really like this series and Abraham's writing style. I do have to get Leviathan Wakes one of these days and try out some sci fi.

[Arbor Gold]

The Tyrant's Law is the first book I ever pre-ordered on my kindle and I was pleased to see it magically appear last evening. Looking forward to digging in later today!