Do you want Aegon to be a fake?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This seems like a great place to dump some crackpottery into this thread. I may have borrowed parts of it from others, so advance thanks to anyone whose name I am forgetting who may have contributed :)

What if Aegon were fake, but not in the way people think? Let's think back to Ashara Dayne's still born daughter, born (we think- based on Barristan Selmy's recollection) around the same time as Elia's second child Aegon. Imagine that Elia understands the pressure she is under to provide an heir will ultimately result in her own death. Now imagine also that as a kindness, she allows her pregnant and unmarried lady in waiting to "hide out" with her during their concurrent pregnancies. What might happen if Elia was delivered of a stillborn daughter and Ashara of a healthy boy with her own violet eyes and the ash blond hair of her house? A baby substitution at that point would only have helped both of the women and the baby involved and need not have been known to anyone else, except the midwives (no one ever thinks to ask them- just ask the one who was with Lyanna Stark)

Fast forward to Robert's Rebellion. With things going poorly, Varys decides to secretly remove Aegon and substitute a changeling. He has already removed Rhaella and Viserys, but Aerys stubbornly refuses to allow Elia and her children to leave. Elia would have no motivation to confess the truth because she would be in huge trouble(!) plus she's been raising this child as her own in good faith and would probably be relieved to see him out of danger. Sack of KL happens and the changeling is murdered, as Varys foresaw.

fAegon becomes the secret Targaryen in exile, except he's really the only Aegon there ever was, right?

Oh and in a fabulous twist of fate- the father of Ashara's babe is Brandon Stark. Which (if you are an R+L=J believer) makes Jon the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Aegon the Bastard of Winterfell.

[The Mother of The Others]

It's the same to me either way. Also, before accusing him of being fake we should first realize that we might not be real either.

[Tagganaro]

It's the same to me either way. Also, before accusing him of being fake we should first realize that we might not be real either.

It's all relative dude...We might not be real, but Aegon is probably less real. Probably.

[danm_999]

Their very first meeting, I pointed it out for a reason. Back when Tyrion did his stupid acrobatic flip; Jon assumes Tyrion can't do something on his own. Not prejudice, just a reasonable assumption about a physical disability.

As I said, he doesn't assume anything, he asks Tyrion whether he wants a ladder or not. Kind of the antithesis of what Aegon does which is scornfully tell Tyrion he can't do something because he's a dwarf.

To use your blind, cripple, child example, this is the difference between me asking a blind person if they need help crossing the road, and me telling a blind person they can't cross the road because they're blind.

You're only saying they aren't comparable because it's pointing out that assuming a dwarf will have issues with physical activity is not prejudiced behaviour.

I'm saying they aren't comparable because;

• Tyrion calls Jon 'remarkably polite', whereas Aegon reminds Tyrion of Joffrey.
  
• Tyrion and Jon part considering each other friends. Tyrion and Aegon part in very poor circumstances.
  
• Aegon calls Tyrion 'dwarf' to his face several times, Jon doesn't.
  
• Jon becomes more humble after meeting Tyrion, Aegon becomes more arrogant.
  

Their 'relationship' has nothing to do with whether or not "You're a dwarf" was prejudice or a statement of doubt about Tyrions ability to fight.

Well it has something to do with it, but my point, as it always has been, is that these incidents show Aegon does not look past Tyrion's dwarfism.

He gets angry because Tyrion is mocking him. The fact he's a dwarf has nothing to do with it. Tyrion could have said just about anything "by a Lannister, by a Westerosi, by a man with no nose, by a better player, by a smarter person", it was the fact he said that made Aegon angry. Did Aegon specifically have a spiel about dwarves being useless? No, he just got angry when someone spoke to him in a condescending tone, something he's clearly not used to outside Connington.

The mockery only works because Tyrion hits a sore spot. If Tyrion said 'you can't beat a banana', it wouldn't have any effect. It'd be kind of funny. But since Aegon assumes himself superior to a dwarf, the mockery does work. Tyrion understands this.

He assumes a physical disability will hinder someones fighting ability. Bad assumption in hindsight, but a reasonable one nonetheless, and still not prejudiced.

He literally nastily prejudges Tyrion's ability, and ends up being dead wrong. It's textbook prejudice.

And guess what? It's kind of a pattern for Aegon. He assumes Daenerys will have to have him. He later says to the Golden Company about invading Westeros "who stands in our way? A woman."

It's not something he can't grow out of, surely, and it's not a fatal character flaw, but he very much needs a Donal Noye/Commander Mormont/Maester Luwin character to knock some sense into him, because the people who've been with him to this point are too sycophantic.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Well this IS Tyrion we're talking about. ;)

[danm_999]

Well this IS Tyrion we're talking about. ;)

Well Tyrion isn't an innocent. He uses people's attitudes towards his dwarfism to get under their skin and manipulate them. He uses it to shame them (the sally at the Blackwater) and to put them at ease (his dinner with Janos Slynt) and to make them laugh (Oberyn Martell).

[Arrein The Only]

You know, I'm so confused with myself about this thing, in some since i want him to be real cause i always picture in my head a targ landing in westeros and the 'secret loyalist' raising dragon banners above their castle walls. But if he is fake then i guess he is fake, i'm really stoke for the battle in the free cities, and the battle of ice in the WoW.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

There are things I don't like about the character (the way he talks about the baby that was supposedly sacrificed in his place, his tantrum with and treatment of Tyrion, that he assumes that Cersei would be an easy opponent because she's a woman, etc.) but I want him to be a fake because it's a much better story and it makes a lot more sense if he's a secret Blackfyre.

[Chocolate_dream]

Oh and in a fabulous twist of fate- the father of Ashara's babe is Brandon Stark. Which (if you are an R+L=J believer) makes Jon the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Aegon the Bastard of Winterfell.

Then why would Aegon have platinum blonde hair?

What if Brandon is Jon's father and Aegon is Aegon?

[Techelles]

Then why would Aegon have platinum blonde hair?

What if Brandon is Jon's father and Aegon is Aegon?

Jon is too young to be Brandon's child.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

:lol: I think she means Ned's older brother not his son. He's to young for that. eta-Jon I mean, Brandon was long dead.

[Techelles]

:lol: I think she means Ned's older brother not his son. He's to young for that. eta-Jon I mean, Brandon was long dead.

Heh, I know. Brandon Stark, the Wild Wolf, son of Rickard, brother of Lyanna and Ned. Jon Snow is too young to be his child. GRRM said that Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon, and Dany was conceived just before the sack of KL.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Heh, I know. Brandon Stark, the Wild Wolf, son of Rickard, brother of Lyanna and Ned. Jon Snow is too old to be his child. GRRM said that Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon, and Dany was conceived just before the sack of KL.

Alright let's put it this way...Jon is younger than Robb...Robb was conceived on Ned and Cat's wedding night...Ned & Cat only married because Brandon was dead...therefore Jon is to young to be Brandon's son.

[Techelles]

Oh! Forgive my slowness...I'm a bit thick tonight, apparently. I meant too young. My bad. Editing now.

This is what I get for stepping in just to correct people. :dunce:

[northernshe-wolf]

I really don't.

I want him to be genuine pretty badly- can't say why, though. I just find it interesting.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I like him but I remember when I first read the books it was around the time a lot of people was talking about the show and the hype was pretty big. I recall to have read something along the lines of "GRRM is the best writer evah!" when I was discovering about Aegon and notices he's the combination of what I think is two of the most overused plots Martin has already shown us: the dead guy/girl who is thought to be dead but returns and the swapped kid/baby who is pretending to be someone else. GRRM can be very repetitive when he wants and Aegon is like the pinnacle of it. But that's my opinion of him as a book plot/resourse, I like Aegon, I like the description Varys gives Kevan about him and I wouldn't mind him to be King and proven to be real. I'm a bit tired of people who is pretending to be someone else.

[bent branch]

While reading AFFC & ADWD, I reminded myself that GRRM wrote these two books specifically because he was showing too many things in flashbacks when he tried to continue the story without them. Because of this, my bias in interpretation is that all of these seemingly diverse story lines will flow back into the main story line rather that creating a bunch of side stories. From this point of view, Aegon being Rhaegar's son is the solution that flows most easily back into the main story line. Aegon, being a random fake or even a Blackfyre of unspecified origin would flow back into the main story line almost as smoothly. However, Aegon being the son of Illyrio and Serra would be this huge knot of thread that would have to be unraveled before it could be woven back into the main story line. About 98% of the series readers (people who don't come to fan forums like this) won't have a clue about what is going on, so they would need it all explained to them. Therefore, I really don't care if Aegon is real or fake, but I really, really don't want him to be the son of Illyrio and Serra (and there are problems with the timeline in that theory also).

[The guy from the Vale]

Well, remember that GRRM decided to abolish the 5-year gap. He must have had his reasons...

As a major proponent of the Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis theory, I'd love to know your problems with the timeline of I+S=A?

[Mother of Mountains]

So hold on, right here you've got Varys ADMITTING that the Dothraki aren't reliable... and that's evidence against what I said? Not quite sure I can swallow that logic.

The point being that unreliabilty is figured into there plan, they understand it may take a while, there problem is events have overtaken them, the truth of Cersei and Jamies incest, and therefore Joffriys parentage is coming out too soon.

Um, he says it's NOT a game of two players. Did you even read the quote? "This is no longer a game of two players, if it ever was". Sounds to me like Varys is suggesting that the "game" was never just Danys v Robert. In fact, it sounds like Varys was hoping Dany and Robert would ruin each other before someone else took the throne. If Varys was supporting Dany, why would he want her to attack Westeros while they are united under one flag instead of in the middle of a civil war? Wouldn't that be the perfect time for her to strike?

I'd wager Varys wants the two forces to ruin each other so that Aegon can slide in without much opposition. Dany cleaning up the scraps of a civil war should be what Varys and Illyrio want, right? An easy war? So why are they trying to make her attack a united front?

Of course I read the damn quote, the inference is that Illyrio's plan, and it is Illyrio's he's the major player not Varys, relies on there being only two players, uncovering Roberts Bastards has bought other's into play, Stannis, Renly, Robb. There were two players when the plan was formulated but not anymore.

My take on this is that Varys and Illyrio aren't on the same hymn sheet. I suspect Varys is what he's seems, a true Targaryen loyalist, intent on bringing back the old regime with a dynasty bred from Dany and Drogo. Illyrio is playing a different game, he's in it for the money, he doesn't care about the actual heritage of who he puts on the throne as long as he gets to be Master of Coin. So he has a plan B, a Blackfyre descendent in hiding.

So between AGoT and ADwD, Illyrio has revealed his plan B to Varys and convinced him that it is the true Aegon.

[The guy from the Vale]

This doesn't work. By all (unreliable) accounts, it was Varys who saved Aegon. I don't think you can easily convince someone of something they presumably did themselves.

ETA: Varys also worked together with the Golden Company back when JC was handed over fAegon. That's ten years before the start of AGoT. So Varys would have known about fAegon long before Illyrio 'unveiled' this to him.