[BOOK SPOILERS] Time to seriously discuss Sansa

[The Knight of Flours]

I've always found Sansa's chapters to be as interesting as any in the books and more interesting once she travels to the Vale. I can't wait for this storyline to play out on the screen.

[Lyanna Stark]

Not sure if serious...

Seriously, this seems to me to be a fuss over nothing. The way Sansa's character is going is exactly where it should be going. Your claim that she is "oversimplified" is kind of groundless, and you haven't really given any evidence to support it. In fact, a lot of Sansa's S3 scenes have been taken straight from the book, so I really can't see how her character has been simplified.

They are taken directly from the books if you haven't read the books, perhaps. Sansa's whole story line is totally different from in the novels, so your claim that we have "no proof" is laughable.

Personally I am ok with the story line differing. The show is not the books and it's not canon, it can exist on its own and be either good, bad or stupid, it bothers me little. However, when it's not internally consistent then it's a problem. Show!Sansa suffers from amnesia in that she has forgotten her brother completely. Show!Margaery seems to suffer from the same affliction.

He could take the black or renounce his right to Winterfell as well, no?

Why on earth would he do either of those things? It makes no sense, logically.

How at all has her storyline been 'utterly destroyed'?

Probably because

a. it's nothing like the novels (this could work, or it could not, depending on how it's done)

b. her character development has largely been reverted from S1

c. it's internally inconsistent

[SerMixalot]

It is irrefutable that TV Sansa has backpedaled. Asking if her family can go to the wedding?

[Tempra]

Why on earth would he do either of those things? It makes no sense, logically.

Traitors aren't given many options besides death.

[a free shadow]

made such astonishing breakthrough between Sansa and Sandor, creating one of the most memorable romantic scenes in GOT

The words you use for a scene, which, for many and more (like me :P ) was neither romantic nor memorable in other ways, show that you are a big Sansa (maybe Sansa and Sandor) fan and the biggest fans sometimes get too critical. That said, I (not a fan of Sansa), will repeat myself again, that the writers are doing A BAD JOB with her this season. And I am being polite.

I disagree that she should have more lines or scenes, because she is an observer in the books, who sees much, hears much, while doing little herself. However, the lines she is given should be, how to put this... NOT ENTIRELY STUPID :pirate:

Even the preformance of the actress is lesser. I could believe she got some specific instructions to play a character not smart at all. All the giggles when Shae mentions Littlefinger being interested in her, pride about Joffrey's interest in her, when she is talking with Margaery, it gives a bad feeling.

Well i don't know really, i wouldn't say she is more simplified than most of the other characters. Was she really that much smarter/different in the books at this point?

There are worse examples of oversimplification, I think. Like Blackfish. But Sansa is definitely one of the worst. Joffrey, Littlefinger are some other examples for me.

Both Margaery and Sansa are unable to understand Westeros inheritance laws in the show as they both think Sansa's sons are first in line for winterfell while robb is still alive.

I think it simply showed how it is easy for Margaery to see where it is all going, while Sansa neither sees nor is able to fallow what she is being told (again, writing is... just...)

[Lyanna Stark]

Traitors aren't given many options besides death.

Robb doesn't see himself as a traitor. He's absolutely set on fighting on, so why would he take the black or cede Winterfell to Sansa, randomly? As I said, it makes no sense, either in the context of the novels, or the show. That is consistent within both. Robb had at least one chance to turn back to the north, but he did not take it. Why would he suddenly, randomly change his mind?

It is irrefutable that TV Sansa has backpedaled. Asking if her family can go to the wedding?

Show!Sansa clearly suffers from amnesia regarding season 1 where her father was beheaded and the rest of the family declared traitors.

I think it simply showed how it is easy for Margaery to see where it is all going, while Sansa neither sees nor is able to fallow what she is being told (again, writing is... just...)

You mean Sansa is unable to realise that her brother(s) would inherit before her? That certainly would make her immensely stupid yes. :)

[Mr Smith]

First, have you read the books? Sansa`s character in the time of SOS/S3 is far less naive and shallow than it is represented in the show. Look at her and Loras, look how passive she is about returning home. She was once again depicted as the same girl from season 1, and she isn`t that anymore.

Yes, but seriously rewritten. And a lot of scenes are added. QOT talking about her being dull, Loras` showing how shallow she is, LF`s play with her and finding out about wedding from that good guy - Tyrion. There`s much more to Sansa then it`s shown on TV. And I am not just speaking about her character development being cut, I think this was done deliberately out of anterior motives that include Tyrion.

No one is denying her talent. Actually, the best part of TV Sansa is actually Sophie.

the generalization was made not to derail main theme, but I can go into each of those characters and how they are seen on TV. On this forum, I am known for many things, but oversimplifying isn`t one of them

You can call on your reputation on this forum all you want, but the fact is you've made generalisations that aren't supported. I have read the books, and after going through them a few moments ago, what you've said simply doesn't add up. As far as the Loras example is concerned, she is SMITTEN with him in the books. Totally smitten. The fact that she gets married to Willas instead changes her temperament from book to show slightly, but she's just as infatuated with the idea of Highgarden in ASOS. And that infatuation with Highgarden is key to her ASOS storyline, because she thinks she's getting a fresh start. They've portrayed it the same way on TV, as they should. As for her interaction with Littlefinger, I think that arc has done far more damage to his character than Sansa's. I don't think she's that much like she is in Season 1, but neither is Sansa that different in ASOS than in AGOT. The change in her character is overstated between these books i feel, and the real change really only comes until after her departure.

[1234567]

Sansa's development from Season 2 onwards has been bad. They have not shown that she was beaten also daily and that she had guards round her all the time and because of the inclusion of Shar and the removal of Dontos, she is no longer friendless or ostracized from court as she is in the books.

We do not see her take a knife to sneak out to the Godswood and also see her having to be careful of every word she says. In the show she seems to be treated far better and rather than see her (which could have been done in a conversation with Shae) talking about wanting her children to hate all Lannisters or to have her not mind about Willa's being crippled as long as it got her out of KL, we have a very different situation.

Also the compassion and relationship with the Hound, where she actually had developed to see past his face, even though he still scared her, was completely removed.

Instead we have a whitewashed Tyrion and her being told that she shouldn't mind being forced to marry her Jailor (who incidentally was also accused of trying to murder her brother).

[Joyful Union]

Basically, let`s face it, in these 7 episode, Sansa`s storyarc has been utterly destroyed, and unless something is changed in the next 3 episodes, we are facing irreparable damage made to one of the most important characters.

I dont think her story arc has been destroyed, but then it never seemed like there there was that much of an arc to begin with. She only really accepted being betrothed to Willas because she was persuaded that he was a great guy, otherwise she was disappointed. You mentioned in one of your posts that they added a scene where she was called dull by the QoT, but she was called an idiot by the QoT in the books.

Also, at what point during the story so far has she been "one of the most important characters"? She has had hardly any impact on the story so far, and has essentially served as a walking camera in Kings Landing and the Vale. She may well become one of the most important characters, but she hasnt been so far.

[Lyanna Stark]

You can call on your reputation on this forum all you want, but the fact is you've made generalisations that aren't supported. I have read the books, and after going through them a few moments ago, what you've said simply doesn't add up. As far as the Loras example is concerned, she is SMITTEN with him in the books. Totally smitten. The fact that she gets married to Willas instead changes her temperament from book to show slightly, but she's just as infatuated with the idea of Highgarden in ASOS. And that infatuation with Highgarden is key to her ASOS storyline, because she thinks she's getting a fresh start. They've portrayed it the same way on TV, as they should. As for her interaction with Littlefinger, I think that arc has done far more damage to his character than Sansa's. I don't think she's that much like she is in Season 1, but neither is Sansa that different in ASOS than in AGOT. The change in her character is overstated between these books i feel, and the real change really only comes until after her departure.

What? You do realise that Margarey was not nice to Sansa after the marriage plot to Tyrion took place, that Tyrion didn't speak to Sansa about the wedding before hand in the novels, that she only told Dontos about the Highgarden plot, etc etc etc etc ad infinitum.

Regarding the second bolded part, this just goes to show that you have, in fact, skimmed Sansa's chapters, not actually read them. For reference, check the Sansa re-read threads in the General forum.

As for reputation on the book forums, what has that got to do with anything? This is simple reading of the text. If you want to argue what is or isn't written in the novels, you should do that in the book forums anyway.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I agree for the most part. They didn't portray the extent of the abuse and how it affected Sansa and they have completely reverted her back to being the entirely naive girl season 1, which she most definitely was not last season.

It also dampens her story b/c they are writing Tyrion so white instead of the gray that he is in the book.

[Tempra]

Robb doesn't see himself as a traitor. He's absolutely set on fighting on, so why would he take the black or cede Winterfell to Sansa, randomly? As I said, it makes no sense, either in the context of the novels, or the show. That is consistent within both. Robb had at least one chance to turn back to the north, but he did not take it. Why would he suddenly, randomly change his mind?

Of course he wouldn't randomly take the black or cede Winterfell. However, in the context of Marg telling Sansa that her child could be Lord (or just a lord?) of Winterfell, it could reasonsbly be assumed that Robb is dead, captured, or in an inescapable position for which he agrees to certain terms of surrender in exchange for his life.

How does that make no sense from Marg's or Sansa's POV?

[Mladen]

They are taken directly from the books if you haven't read the books, perhaps. Sansa's whole story line is totally different from in the novels, so your claim that we have "no proof" is laughable.

Personally I am ok with the story line differing. The show is not the books and it's not canon, it can exist on its own and be either good, bad or stupid, it bothers me little. However, when it's not internally consistent then it's a problem. Show!Sansa suffers from amnesia in that she has forgotten her brother completely. Show!Margaery seems to suffer from the same affliction.

Probably because

a. it's nothing like the novels (this could work, or it could not, depending on how it's done)

b. her character development has largely been reverted from S1

c. it's internally inconsistent

:agree: with everything you`ve said, especially about amnesia. I sincerely don`t understand it. Sansa spent much more time thinking of her brothers and her family in the books than in the show. And the problem Sansa had with Tyrion is him being Lannister, not being dwarf. That came on wedding night.

The words you use for a scene, which, for many and more (like me :P ) was neither romantic nor memorable in other ways, show that you are a big Sansa (maybe Sansa and Sandor) fan and the biggest fans sometimes get too critical. That said, I (not a fan of Sansa), will repeat myself again, that the writers are doing A BAD JOB with her this season. And I am being polite.

I disagree that she should have more lines or scenes, because she is an observer in the books, who sees much, hears much, while doing little herself. However, the lines she is given should be, how to put this... NOT ENTIRELY STUPID :pirate:

I was comparing it to other rare romantic scenes, not all scenes in general. I am Sansa fan, also San/San fan, but that doesn`t make me too critical. I am observant of entire show and I see that her character suffered the most changes and simplifications. Writing this season hasn`t been bad for overall experience, it`s her character that is so diminished on so many levels.

And I agree with the last line of your post (bolded one)

Also, at what point during the story so far has she been "one of the most important characters"? She has had hardly any impact on the story so far, and has essentially served as a walking camera in Kings Landing and the Vale. She may well become one of the most important characters, but she hasnt been so far.

Well, she is one of the most important characters, because GRRM had spent so much writing her POVs. Only 3,4 people have more POVs than her, and including foreshadowings and the tone of her chapters, I could certainly say GRRM has big plans for her. And even in the first 4 books, she is someone at the center of the game. She is maybe a pawn, but so many moves are taken because of her. Half the story of SOS in KL is about her. She isn`t unimportant on any level.

[1234567]

Also the show is acting as if she will be some great Lady if she marries Tyrion, whilst in the books it was clear that she would be a prisoner for the rest of her life in the RK or even killed off once she had out lives her usefulness. This hasn't been touched on the show. I think they have skim read Sansa's chapters as well to be honest.

[Mladen]

Also the show is acting as if she will be some great Lady if she marries Tyrion, whilst in the books it was clear that she would be a prisoner for the rest of her life in the RK or even killed off once she had out lives her usefulness. This hasn't been touched on the show. I think they have skim read Sansa's chapters as well to be honest.

Well, that`s Margaery talking. I think she is here playing with Sansa, which is to be expected on one level, but on another, I can`t get the picture of sad Margaery`s face during Sansa`s wedding and how shocked they all were.

[Greywolf2375]

He could take the black or renounce his right to Winterfell as well, no?

That's true, but given what we've seen from Joffrey - I don't think it is too much a stretch to assume that Robb would not get an option to take the black nor would he renounce Winterfell. He's Inigo Montoya - they killed his father, he's preparing them to die!

Sansa had been growing stronger, but this episode did sort of set her back some. I guess it could be attributed to the news of her marrying Tyrion. I had more issue with how Marg was portrayed/pusing the idea than anything I saw from Sansa - though that could be because I think I was literally sitting there saying "What the fuck is she talking about? Handsome?"

[SerArthurHeath]

Show Sansa and show Margaery are too dense it seems. Which makes no sense at all unless Robb is secretly going to emigrate to Volantis.

Robb is officially a traitor- by the laws of Westeros he has lost all claim to Winterfell unless he wins, which he can't

[WardenOfTheNerds]

:agree: with everything you`ve said, especially about amnesia. I sincerely don`t understand it. Sansa spent much more time thinking of her brothers and her family in the books than in the show. And the problem Sansa had with Tyrion is him being Lannister, not being dwarf. That came on wedding night.

I was comparing it to other rare romantic scenes, not all scenes in general. I am Sansa fan, also San/San fan, but that doesn`t make me too critical. I am observant of entire show and I see that her character suffered the most changes and simplifications. Writing this season hasn`t been bad for overall experience, it`s her character that is so diminished on so many levels.

And I agree with the last line of your post (bolded one)

Well, she is one of the most important characters, because GRRM had spent so much writing her POVs. Only 3,4 people have more POVs than her, and including foreshadowings and the tone of her chapters, I could certainly say GRRM has big plans for her. And even in the first 4 books, she is someone at the center of the game. She is maybe a pawn, but so many moves are taken because of her. Half the story of SOS in KL is about her. She isn`t unimportant on any level.

Yeah while i think her character didn't suffer that badly, especially compared to a lot of others (namely Stannis, Edmure, Blackfish, Jon) on this much i can agree. It's idiotic to suggest that her reaction to marrying a man of the family who beheaded her father and is fighting a war with her brother is "LOLZ HOW CAN WE HUV SEX HE'S DWARF !".

[Colonel Green]

You mean Sansa is unable to realise that her brother(s) would inherit before her?

At this point I think we're supposed to think she learned her brothers are dead offscreen, because Tywin knew about in episode 5, everybody else is calling her the key to the North, and there's no real indication that she's going to learn about her brothers' supposed deaths in upcoming episodes.

[Elba the Intoner]

Thanks for bringing this up Mladen. In the books by this point it was obvious that Sansa hated the Lannisters and didn't want to be married to any of them, and we got to see her mature a bit in her thoughts about how even though she didn't know anything about Willas other than he was a cripple, she was going to try and make it work because she wanted to get out of King's Landing ASAP. She also realized at the first meeting with Marg and the QOT, when Loras escorted her to that lunch, that Loras was not into her at all and was just being polite.

In the show we have her being all swoony over Loras who is the kind of guy she dreamed about from the very beginning, so no character progression there, and she still doesn't even realize that Loras is not that into her at all. She does manage to say as part of her objection to Tyrion that he's a Lannister, but then she goes on about how he's a dwarf and I just thought "Oh gods!" Also, her not commenting on the fact that her brothers have the claim to Winterfell as she has heard nothing about Winterfell being sacked as I can recall, so she should be wondering about that when Marg brings up that her son could be heir to both Winterfell and Casterly Rock, or at least she should have mentioned that Robb is heir to Winterfell. Finally, in the books she didn't give a rat's ass about Casterly Rock and had no desire to go there which didn't come across at all on the show.