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Let`s discuss Sansa`s so-called betrayal to her father


Mladen

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When one asks the king to intercede between you and your father's secret command, it is generally considered a betrayal, especially in Westeros where your father has the right to make decisions for you. And saying that she did not know that Cersei was an enemy doesn't make Sansa look any better. She should have doubted her intentions given what she's already witnessed first hand.

Depends on what those commands were according to her. Did she knew exactly what they were leaving? That her father just discovered a secret that would put Cersei's live in danger? For all she knew, her father and the Queen have a disagreement and she sent him back to Winterfell and she thought it wouldn't be any harm to ask her to stay.

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Love the OP, and am happy to see some like-minded people. All the Sansa hate that is traced back to this is absurd. (Sansa hate in general is absurd imho, but at least sometimes it's understandable)

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She was 11 years olds:

1-She "betrayed" her father's order when he even told her about his men dying around him and then why they need to gtfo.

2-Joffrey tried to kill her sister and the battle was 100% his fault but she still defend him.

3-Cercei commanded Lady's death when the wolf wasnt even there, to me this is enough to understand how dangerous she is.

4-She blamed Lady's death on Arya when anyone over 5 would understand it was all Joffrey/Cercei's

But now you all think "betrayed" is such a strong word but in truth this is a 11yo action in a mediaval society who knows nothing of the world.

She has part of the blame for his father last choice :Discarding his honor (to save his daughters). But Joffrey would kill him anyway.

SO, if she was 16yo or higher, her actions would be grave, BUT for a 11yo mind and understanding of the world she shouldnt feel any guilt.

Right now I think she is learning to think before acting, LF is the best teacher for someone like her to learn how to survive with wit and stop being a pawn to everyone

Ned was a smart man but was naive, Sansa was naive too. But now I think she has the possibility to keep her Stark traits while knowing that you gotta always expect the worse from everyone to not get backstabbed.

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Sansa was a teenager in love. I would challenge anyone here to claim they have never done something stupid or irrational while they were a teenager in love, and quite frankly, if you did not, you missed out on something (I once went joyriding in my mom's car to impress the girl next door only to find out that a mailbox can leave a rather costly and incriminating scratch).

Now on to the serious discussion here:

I think what is important in this case is to differentiate the act from its consequences, consequences that, IMO a teenage girl had no way to predict. Sansa had been dreaming her whole life of King's Landing and marrying a prince who was chivalrous and handsome and brave. She perceived Joffrey, not only to be that person but to be the ONLY person for her. Therefore when faced with returning to the North and loosing him, she panicked and went to someone whom she thought she could trust, the Queen.

Now the fact that Cersei used that confession to move against Eddard Stark was done through no fault of her own. I am not a big fan of Sansa but she definitely not to blame in this circumstance. A 12 years old cannot be expected to understand those things, at least not one as innocent as Sansa was at the time.

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Sansa was a teenager in love. I would challenge anyone here to claim they have never done something stupid or irrational while they were a teenager in love, and quite frankly, if you did not, you missed out on something (I once went joyriding in my mom's car to impress the girl next door only to find out that a mailbox can leave a rather costly and incriminating scratch).

Now on to the serious discussion here:

I think what is important in this case is to differentiate the act from its consequences, consequences that, IMO a teenage girl had no way to predict. Sansa had been dreaming her whole life of King's Landing and marrying a prince who was chivalrous and handsome and brave. She perceived Joffrey, not only to be that person but to be the ONLY person for her. Therefore when faced with returning to the North and loosing him, she panicked and went to someone whom she thought she could trust, the Queen.

Now the fact that Cersei used that confession to move against Eddard Stark was done through no fault of her own. I am not a big fan of Sansa but she definitely not to blame in this circumstance. A 12 years old cannot be expected to understand those things, at least not one as innocent as Sansa was at the time.

Exactly, her action could be reprehensive if she was an adult but damn she is 11yo,

as when Wylla Manderly almost declared war to the Frey and spit on their face, if she was a 25yo old Male heir (im not trying to be sexist but in this world it would matter) it would be a grave offense, but she is 15yo little girl (4more than Sansa) and nobody blames her or should blame her.

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okay, for the TL;DR people, I give you the shorter version.

I actually couldn't stand her after her actions in GOT. But then I actually *read* the text and realized "oh wow, this is a smart character, and a chick who's actually growing", and I did a complete 180 :) Sansa and Arya are my top chicks now!

Why does the love of Sansa have to result in her earlier history being revised, though? The reaction you had to her in GoT should remain the same to this day (or very similar, mellowed some by time). Why is the junior judas behavior totally forgiven just because later character developments earned our love? Is it Retroactive Time-Travel Love? The lamentable moments in GoT are still the same, why should we pretend otherwise.

and now the same rant, fatter--

kid doesnt know any better [in GoT]. head so far in the clouds, she isnt seeing what everyone else is seeing.

willfully not seeing. jerkish junior judas behavior doesn't = total innocence. jerkishness downgrades one's innocence. kids know what they're doing when they act out. she didn't know what was going on in the adult world of power struggles, true, and circumstances pressured her into jumping ship to side with the Lannister-Baratheons, but she knew she was selling out her family repeatedly and on purpose because they hadn't lived up to her snooty Barbie dreamhouse fantasies. So the royals were the dolls she chose to play with, and her own family were the ones she became embarrassed of when they couldn't match the glitz and glamour of Cersei & Joff. This is normal childish selfishness of the kind we see from most kids, but the difference is she wasn't a normal kid and wasn't in a normal situation, so her "normal" failings stood out as extra cringeworthy. Most kids' actions aren't capable of starting or worsening a clash between houses that gets people killed. That's why they hired septas to try and get the daughters' behavior on an even keel for when they went to court. And as it turned out, Sansa had her own way of giving the septa the middle finger, not as blatantly as Arya did but more underhandedly, with polite-seeming whispers as sharp as any sword. Sansa helped the Starks tumble, not with malice and forethought but with contempt and insolence, which doesn't sound a whole heck of a lot better. Her betrayals were a continuation of the pattern we saw from the girls at Winterfell: "I don't like Arya so why would I take her side when I can side with this obviously horrible Joff monster who isn't even bothering to hide his true stripes from me! What just happened with the butcher's son was very clearly a case of Nightmarish Future Husband but I'll just continue to worship Joff blindly, just as Sansa fans will continue to worship me and find ways to wash away my youthful betrayals from their minds as if it didn't happen even though they're constantly rereading it happen every time!" (Hence this one's exasperation). (The readers are repeating the blindness which the character herself has since shaken off! I'm waiting for the readership to catch up and do the same.)

(Love the character, claim the character, but claim the character in totality. see the character honestly and accept the faults too along with the prized stiff upper lip. That stiff upper lip will still come to exist just the same in later chapters; it will still be waiting for you even if the earlier unhelpful Sansa is admitted to. That's what I don't understand. People say they enjoy the growth in the character, but they aren't admitting the truth about the starting point from which all this growth comes. That should be the easy part now that you've grown to love the character. It's not like she's Tyrion who recently grew a lot tougher to like. Sansa has grown easier to like for several books in a row. She's a confirmed like-able character. I like her now, for instance. Why is the truth about the early Sansa being covered up Wizard of Oz style by a green curtain? What scandal is there to be feared from an honest appraisal of her behavior in GoT?

It doesn't make sense, this Sansa sainthood movement. Every other character is content being gray. Why do we need an exception so badly. Also, nothing that happened in GoT should be able to tarnish your current love for the character, because GoT was the first book we all read, after all, and the wellspring of love for Sansa arose later. Why did the love for Sansa then feel that it had a responsibility to go back and sweep GoT under the rug??? It's the same character. Younger and acting out at first in ways we can appreciate with pursed lips, then growing in ways we can all appreciate more fully. It's only a truly meaningful journey when it's appreciated from start to finish. Start: Girl threw her family under the bus! It wasn't meant to be lethal to them, but that's what ended up happening, (not entirely any one person's fault, but partially everyone's fault, including Sansa, more noticeably than some other minor players on account of verbally throwing the Starks under the bus!).......

But this only makes the character's POV more valuable, not less! It adds to the internal angst and struggle to do right by her parents as she grows up. Like those kids who wonder if they caused their parents' divorce, she'll occasionally struggle with thoughts of whether her actions helped to get her parents dead. That's a better character than one who holds herself blameless! Why does nobody see that? Acknowledging her early miscues and learning from them will help greatly to inform Sansa about what kind of princess she actually wants to be, now that she knows the grisly truth about the Game and has put the Barbies aside.

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She was 11 years olds:

1-She "betrayed" her father's order when he even told her about his men dying around him and then why they need to gtfo.

2-Joffrey tried to kill her sister and the battle was 100% his fault but she still defend him.

3-Cercei commanded Lady's death when the wolf wasnt even there, to me this is enough to understand how dangerous she is.

4-She blamed Lady's death on Arya when anyone over 5 would understand it was all Joffrey/Cercei's

But now you all think "betrayed" is such a strong word but in truth this is a 11yo action in a mediaval society who knows nothing of the world.

She has part of the blame for his father last choice :Discarding his honor (to save his daughters). But Joffrey would kill him anyway.

SO, if she was 16yo or higher, her actions would be grave, BUT for a 11yo mind and understanding of the world she shouldnt feel any guilt.

Right now I think she is learning to think before acting, LF is the best teacher for someone like her to learn how to survive with wit and stop being a pawn to everyone

Ned was a smart man but was naive, Sansa was naive too. But now I think she has the possibility to keep her Stark traits while knowing that you gotta always expect the worse from everyone to not get backstabbed.

Exactly: I feel there are predominately two views on this forum those who take responsibility for their action and those who blame others. Also I think some people on this board might have grew up in a house hold where their parents were so called lenient pacifists. I just let my children express themselves, now go stand in time out. Others were brought up a little more hard line, so lying and not doing what your told had a consequence. you were held responsible. Sansa was told something to do by her father she didn't do it. now she is a hostage. And has made matters worse. If she would have listened maybe an escape could have happened as in arya's case or possibly Cersie wouldn't have went into action as soon. To make Ned swear fealty. If Sansa wasn't a hostage and Ned was Aware of this he might have been able to claim aloud how roberts children were illegitimate, he might have been able to receive a trial by combat. who knows. Not saying Sansa bears full responsibility but she was disobedient and that was a betrayal.

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Having recently just re-read AGOT, my opinion on this is that Sansa going to Cersei on the very day of the showdown had no impact on Ned being thrown into prison, and in fact it might not have had an impact on his death either... but maybe it did.

The only meaningful thing really about Sansa's betrayal was that as soon as she went to the queen, she was placed under guard in Maegor's Holdfast. Had she stayed the dutiful daughter and hung around with Septa Mordane and finished her packing, she would have been in the Tower of the Hand. And maybe, just maybe some of Ned's men would have been able to cut a way out for her, or better yet, she might have run into her sister after the Syrio thing, and Arya would have gotten both of them out.

At that point Ned would have laughed in his captor's faces, because they had nothing on him, and Cersei would have just left him in the dungeons. That mummer's farce at Baelor's Sept would not have happened.

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junk

Where did i say Sansa is a saint? Her running to Cersei is a stain on her otherwise rather rosy character. But the truth is, she really didnt know wtf was going on. She notes "She felt as wicked as Arya then." So Sansa did feel like she was going against the grain, but did she know the entirety of it? Not a chance. She doesnt know Ned even got captured until afterwards. She doesnt get a full scale idea until she's told that Ned was locked up for treason. Even then, it takes her a while to process that.

Sansa fucked up big time, but she really didnt understand that her actions would result in a speedier fuck up outcome. Nor did she understand what that meant for her.

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I find this topic really interesting and i am glad you brought it up. While I respect your opinion of Sansa, I disagree with it.

The root of Sansa's betrayal is the incident at the Darry Castle. This was one of the moments where a person has to make a difficult decision that will ultimately say a lot about their values. Sansa's failure to defend her sister shows that she lacks loyalty and decency. This was the first serious betrayal in the story and an early insight into the character. She chose Joffrey over Arya and that decision had a very serious and immediate consequence, the death of Lady. She gets a first hand dose of just how wicked Joffrey and Cercei are

Jump forward to King's Landing and Sansa still hasn't learned her lesson. I know some people are going to hate this, but it has to be said: Part of the reason she didn't learn anything from the Darry incident was because she just isn't very bright. She is a a slow learner. She couldn't learn her sums and she was virtually the last person in the kingdom to learn that Joffrey was a creep. Of course she was also blinded by her immaturity and fairy tale world view. However it is quite possible for a person to have an idyllic world view AND be a decent judge of character. Sansa is clueless though.

Interestingly, Ned also suffers from a similar inability to judge character. I don't think Sansa should take the blame for the death of her father and fall out from his arrest and execution, it was Ned's job to protect his family and it was his failures that contributed to the danger they were in.

I agree with everyone who says that basically she was simply acting like the immature child she was. The problem with that rationale, however, is that her sister Arya is even younger. Sure they are different people, but the contrast between the sisters is so "Stark." Arya seems to have her values straight despite immense pressure to try to be someone she isn't. Arya knows who she is. She is also a very good judge of character. The whole age thing in these books is so damn disorienting anyway. Arya, Bran, Jon, Rob, and Dany are all really young as well, but they all manage to act with with some sense and more maturity.

I look forward to Sansa belatedly discovering her sense of identity and purpose. She can do it, I know she can.

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