Avengers 2: Age of Ultron

[Davrum]

I just watched the new trailer. 3 times in a row.

Now I'm going to rip the audio so I can listen to James Spader on a loop all day.

[Davrum]

Briefly:

The Hulk is a character based around uncontrollable anger and destruction. Bruce Banner is a guy who's wound up tight, who never shows his emotions, whereas the Hulk is his uncontrollable passions. So being born in a literal explosion is a metaphor absolutely central to who the character is. Particularly considering the story of how Banner comes to be in that blast: Banner is the cold, logical scientist involved in creating this weapon, until suddenly he sees the human cost right before his eyes (Rick Jones about to die) and he reacts with emotion for what might be the first time in his life, causing him to become this creature of emotion.

Wolverine, meanwhile, is a character who's all about the conflict between his inner nature and his better instincts. 'I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do isn't very nice': it's not a boast, it's regret, a wish to be better. Central to that is that he was literally turned into a living weapon by the Weapon X program. He's a mutant, but that's his real origin story. If he had the claws all along, that goes away. He was always a living weapon. The tragedy of what was done to him is severely lessened.

Plus, they look crap. :P

I can sort of understand the Hulk change, because who does above-ground bomb tests any more? But the Wolverine-claws thing was just idiots messing with something because they missed the point and thought it was kewl.

:agree: 1,000,000,000%

Edit: No, make that 1,000,000,000,000%

[Beric175]

These marvel films have been hugely overrated so far. No rewatchability possibility for most of them and they don't work as movies on their own most of the time either. I like this trailer but I noticed that it's almost the same set-up as the first Avengers film: enemy gets team to fight amongst themselves while he/it attacks with huge, faceless army. the articifical intelligence and genocide aspect are interesting and very different from what has mostly been axplored so far in the Marvel universe though, which makes me interested, although the previous lack of intellectual/philosophical ambition in these films does not make me optimistic that they are going to explore any of these issues in sufficient depth.

[The BlackBear]

Am I the only one who found Quicksilver in DOTP annoying and goofy?

Anyway, amazing trailer, I love the juxtaposition of the pinnochio theme. I really hope Ultron survives the events of the film, as we really need more good villains than just Loki.

Yes I liked that one scene, but he was too powerful to really fit into that universe.

Ultron can always survive anything as he will almost always have a backup. But he's too powerful to have as a recurring villain really.

[Knight of Ashes]

No Vision so far...

[The BlackBear]

No Vision so far...

He's too hard to sell in a teaser.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Briefly:

The Hulk is a character based around uncontrollable anger and destruction. Bruce Banner is a guy who's wound up tight, who never shows his emotions, whereas the Hulk is his uncontrollable passions. So being born in a literal explosion is a metaphor absolutely central to who the character is. Particularly considering the story of how Banner comes to be in that blast: Banner is the cold, logical scientist involved in creating this weapon, until suddenly he sees the human cost right before his eyes (Rick Jones about to die) and he reacts with emotion for what might be the first time in his life, causing him to become this creature of emotion.

Wolverine, meanwhile, is a character who's all about the conflict between his inner nature and his better instincts. 'I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do isn't very nice': it's not a boast, it's regret, a wish to be better. Central to that is that he was literally turned into a living weapon by the Weapon X program. He's a mutant, but that's his real origin story. If he had the claws all along, that goes away. He was always a living weapon. The tragedy of what was done to him is severely lessened.

Plus, they look crap. :P

I can sort of understand the Hulk change, because who does above-ground bomb tests any more? But the Wolverine-claws thing was just idiots messing with something because they missed the point and thought it was kewl.

The idea that the gamma bomb explosion that created The Hulk being a metaphor for his "uncontrollable passions" is very much an after-the-fact imposition of meaning onto his origins. In the original Incredible Hulk, this was certainly not the case. In fact, in his original incarnation, The Hulk's transformation had nothing to do with his emotional state. He was basically a big, grey werewolf - turning into the grey hulk at night and then turning into Bruce Banner in the morning. It took a while before The Hulk character evolved into becoming a manifestation of uncontrollable emotions. I definitely do not see any reason for one technobabble explanation of his origins is better than another.

[Jaxom 1974]

The idea that the gamma bomb explosion that created The Hulk being a metaphor for his "uncontrollable passions" is very much an after-the-fact imposition of meaning onto his origins. In the original Incredible Hulk, this was certainly not the case. In fact, in his original incarnation, The Hulk's transformation had nothing to do with his emotional state. He was basically a big, grey werewolf - turning into the grey hulk at night and then turning into Bruce Banner in the morning. It took a while before The Hulk character evolved into becoming a manifestation of uncontrollable emotions. I definitely do not see any reason for one technobabble explanation of his origins is better than another.

I agree that what the Hulk had become wasn't the initial intention of the character. Though it can be argued that the idea was there waiting under the surface until the right writer found it. Brought a bit more logic to the character.

I actually think the idea in the Ultimate of Banner working on a new super soldier sum was actually inventive. Hubris played a part in that tale.

[Bastard of Boston]

The Ultimate Universe started out so well -- I'm glad the films have been taking cues. The interconnectivity of it all really contributed well to the shared universe idea. In the comics, they can afford to have all these franchises exist in their own bubbles. But, if they're going to use the solo films as constant preludes to larger team-up films, they need to establish common plot threads. So, having -- pretty much -- all the supers in the Ultimate Universe be indirectly connected to the super soldier serum is a great catalyst for stories.

I'm really curious over how they'll explain Wanda and Pietro's origins. I hope it isn't as rudimentary as them being granted powers overnight. They'd be much more interesting if they were explained in the same way Ultimate mutants were -- an evolution which happened over the course of decades, incited by experimentation in the 40s to recreate Captain America.

Wanda and Pietro growing up in some isolated Eastern European town, where Hydra chose to focus their experimentation, and after years of tinkering with genetic manipulation, two twins are born with freakish and unforeseen abilities. Hydra snatches them up and imprisons them, subjecting them to brainwashing via the Agents of SHIELD method, coupled with Loki's scepter. The isolation and manipulation would also explain why Pietro is so volatile and Wanda is batshit crazy.

[CyanidePie]

I think the fact that they actually pierce his skin makes it stupid for them to be a 'natural' mutation.

People always seem to bring this up as an example of an 'unnatural' mutation that doesn't make sense. Except that everyone who has been on the internet should have already heard about "the Wolverine frog."

A native frog in Cameroon, the trichobatrachus robustus will actually break its own bones as a defense mechanism, and uses the bones that protrude from its skin as claws.

Damn nature, you scary!

[andrew_]

No Vision so far...

I have a feeling he will only show up at the end, to either bring the conflict to a resolution, aka take down Ultron or he will be introduced in the aftermath, aka the last 10 min of the film wrapping up all narrative threads.

[Jon AS]

Except that everyone who has been on the internet should have already heard about "the Wolverine frog."

Really? What makes you think that?

A native frog in Cameroon, the trichobatrachus robustus will actually break its own bones as a defense mechanism, and uses the bones that protrude from its skin as claws.

Looking at the description, that's interesting, but also obviously a completely different mechanic from what Wolverine does. No retraction mechanism, for one thing.

I'd say it's a save bet that his claws were inspired by the retractable claws of cats, not the fascinating and apparently not completely understood ability of an obscure African frog that was apparently first described in detail less than a decade ago (and according to that article, only one other species of tetrapod has a similar kind of skin-piercing defense mechanism).;)

It's always nice to learn something new, though.

[Sci-2]

I have a feeling he will only show up at the end, to either bring the conflict to a resolution, aka take down Ultron or he will be introduced in the aftermath, aka the last 10 min of the film wrapping up all narrative threads.

Or he's the one who dies nobly since Hawkeye might be useful to boost AoS ratings.

[Jon AS]

Or he's the one who dies nobly since Hawkeye might be useful to boost AoS ratings.

You think they'd kill off a character that has just been introduced? And that Jeremy Renner would be available for enough episodes of AoS to actually do something for the ratings in the long run?

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Just saw the trailer. It looks really good and a lot grittier than the first Avengers.

Thought I caught a glimpse of the south african police force at about 00:55. I'm now anxious to see this movie.

[mormont]

The bone claws was revealed in the Weapon X story. Before that no one knew one way or another what the story was.

Not strictly true. Wolverine himself had referred to the claws as an artificial addition repeatedly before that story, and Marvel publications (including the Handbook to the Marvel Universe) referred to them as bionic additions. This was an accepted fact for almost the first two decades of his existence. There had been no suggestion of any ambiguity or doubt about it: everyone knew what the story was, until suddenly someone changed it, for no particularly good reason.

(The bone claws first appear after he loses his adamantium. But it's initially unclear whether he had them to start with: it's some time before we see retrospective appearances of the bone claws.)

So yeah, it's a retcon. And a thematically tone-deaf one IMO.

The idea that the gamma bomb explosion that created The Hulk being a metaphor for his "uncontrollable passions" is very much an after-the-fact imposition of meaning onto his origins. In the original Incredible Hulk, this was certainly not the case. In fact, in his original incarnation, The Hulk's transformation had nothing to do with his emotional state. He was basically a big, grey werewolf - turning into the grey hulk at night and then turning into Bruce Banner in the morning. It took a while before The Hulk character evolved into becoming a manifestation of uncontrollable emotions. I definitely do not see any reason for one technobabble explanation of his origins is better than another.

I couldn't care less about the 'technobabble' - it's the resonance of the explosion origin that's important, IMO.

And, you do realise that werewolves are exactly the same kind of story as the Hulk - about repressed passions coming out in an uncontrollable form? The grey hulk is slightly different to the green, but the basic idea was the same.

[red snow]

"natural" mutations aren't always "good". In fact they are mainly bad eg cancer, disease and malformations. So having bone claws that tear through your skin is fine (especially with a healing factor). Future generations may encourage a mutation where there is room for claws to protrude naturally. If anything it makes more sense that the bones would protrude through the open skin and then it would be a case of whether having claws saves your life more often than dying of an infection.

Of course it's not like "mutations" in comics bare any resemblance to natural mutation. There's not many good reasons for how we could fly (unless it were Angel style) or control magnetism etc.

I think Mormont's idea is more on the ball in that the mutations work best when used as metaphors for the characters. Unless your spider-man and then it's just a cool power combined with a good character. There's too many characters that are just "cool power"

[protar]

The Ultimate Universe started out so well -- I'm glad the films have been taking cues. The interconnectivity of it all really contributed well to the shared universe idea. In the comics, they can afford to have all these franchises exist in their own bubbles. But, if they're going to use the solo films as constant preludes to larger team-up films, they need to establish common plot threads. So, having -- pretty much -- all the supers in the Ultimate Universe be indirectly connected to the super soldier serum is a great catalyst for stories.

I'm really curious over how they'll explain Wanda and Pietro's origins. I hope it isn't as rudimentary as them being granted powers overnight. They'd be much more interesting if they were explained in the same way Ultimate mutants were -- an evolution which happened over the course of decades, incited by experimentation in the 40s to recreate Captain America.

Wanda and Pietro growing up in some isolated Eastern European town, where Hydra chose to focus their experimentation, and after years of tinkering with genetic manipulation, two twins are born with freakish and unforeseen abilities. Hydra snatches them up and imprisons them, subjecting them to brainwashing via the Agents of SHIELD method, coupled with Loki's scepter. The isolation and manipulation would also explain why Pietro is so volatile and Wanda is batshit crazy.

I quite like the idea of Quicksilver and Scarlet being Inhumans - and then they can be the leads of the rumoured Inhumans film. After all it seems a bit odd to introduce these new major characters and not even attempt to give them their own solo franchise. It ties in perfectly with Inhumans being replacement Mutants. But I'd heard Fiege had denied this was the case.

[The BlackBear]

I quite like the idea of Quicksilver and Scarlet being Inhumans - and then they can be the leads of the rumoured Inhumans film. After all it seems a bit odd to introduce these new major characters and not even attempt to give them their own solo franchise. It ties in perfectly with Inhumans being replacement Mutants. But I'd heard Fiege had denied this was the case.

He did? Given how hard they're building up the Kree in AoS, and Guardians, I figured this was more or less a given.

[The BlackBear]

Trailer analysis. http://screenrant.com/avengers-2-trailer-spoilers/ Apparently the woman in the 'party' shot is a doctor character:

In the wide shot of the party you can see the six main Avengers, Maria Hill (who now works for Stark) and another new character played by Kim Soo-hyun a.k.a. Claudia Kim who’s rumored to play a doctor in the film.