Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book?

[Smokefall]

Him being resurrected doesn't necessarily mean he'll oppose her. It depends on the agent that resurrects him. If it's Bloodraven I don't think that automatically means "ice magic." Nothing about BR screams ice magic to me, other than being in the north. If Melony does it then that's fire magic and might actually help Dany's cause if she's "fire magic."

Agreed. The whole 'Bran/Jon vs. Dany' or 'Stark/Others vs Targaryens' ending is a hypothesis that I see very little evidence for in the novels. Quite the opposite actually. To take just one example, Bran's vision in AGOT of Asshai, where 'dragons stirred beneath the sunrise', is tinged with awe and wonder. It's only when he glimpses the 'heart of winter' that he cries out in fear. I would hazard to claim that almost everything in the books points to Dany, Bran and Jon teaming up in the end...

[six]

It is true that Jon's policies resulted in this assasination but the plot device to set these things in motion was the saving Arya mission and how it backfired. Mel exploited Jon's dire condition here just like she is manipulating Stannis the same way.

I disagree. From her pov it's clear she's not as knowledgeable as she makes it out to be, but she isn't exactly manipulating either. She's on the right side and wants to do right, but she's misguided.

SeventySeven

Check GRRM's blog for his opinion on the NK scene being a spoiler.

Mel's POV is to show she has no clue what she is doing or seeing in her flame. She just acts like she knows when telling Stannis.

Bottom line: she is there to cause extra chaos, and de-stabilize the realm.

EXAMPLE: The lord of light was the reason for killing the usurpers, Balon, Joffery, and Robb.

It was total crap. People or Faceless men did those deeds for selfish reasons.

Balon-Euron killed using the Worlocks or Faceless man(I'm not sure)

Joffery-QoT and Littlefinger, with maybe Tywin letting it happen

Robb-Tywin- with Frey and Bolton as instruments.

Val has powers, "It is known." And my theory isn't super crackpot. There is a "thing" between Jon and Val other than attraction.

Mel might be there to raise an Ice Dragon.

Remember this is GRRM's story and not everything spelled out for the reader has to come true.

I can't find anything about that on his blog, if you happen to stumble upon a link pass it my way, please?

And no, sorry. I disagree. I don't believe there's much cooking between Val and Jon, she was there to represent what he could have had, but chose differently. He says it himself "he burned that bridge". Attraction Jon has it towards Val, Mel, Alys and also commenting on the way people look is a quirk of his i.e. "Satin looks so pretty" in the midst of a battle where everyone might die, "Satin might be pretty but he fights well", "Satin was a pretty youth" (like seriously Jon we got it, shut up about it :laugh:) and in his first chapter he couldn't take his eyes off Jaime Lannister and his shining green eyes. I see no indication Val has powers either.

Mel is chaos, but she means to do well. She's a religious zealot and her methods are questionable, but she's pretty much the only person who wants to defend the realm from the real threat. She's not an enemy. Grrm himself says the fandom misunderstand her.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Short answer, yes it can work. GRRM is not going to go with a stupid ending, so if he goes that direction he will make it work.

[tze]

I think we've been given some pretty clear hints on how Jon will view Dany, none of them positive. Look at his thoughts on Selyse:

She hates the cold but loves the flames. He had only to look at her to see that. A word from Melisandre, and she would walk into the fire willingly, embrace it like a lover.

And his thoughts on Ser Axell:

If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent’s brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

He thinks negatively of a woman who would willingly walk into flames and of someone who stood aside while his brother was burned alive. I doubt GRRM stuck these tidbits in there for no reason, given that they're pretty good descriptors of Dany.

And the whole "she hates entire Stark/Baratheon/Lannister families" is just Dany-hating fanon

So Brown Ben Plumm is part of the Dany-hating fanon? He certainly believed that Dany would be anti-Tyrion when he tried to buy Tyrion so he could hand him over to Dany:

And what would a sellsword want with a dwarf? Tyrion pushed himself back to his feet to get a better look. The new bidder was an older man, white-haired yet tall and fit, with leathery brown skin and a close-cropped salt-and-pepper beard. Half-hidden under a faded purple cloak were a longsword and a brace of daggers. . . . The brown-skinned man pushed through the crowd, his fellow sellswords shoving buyers aside to clear a path. Yes. Come closer. Tyrion knew how to deal with sellswords. He did not think for a moment that this man wanted him to frolic at feasts. He knows me. He means to take me back to Westeros and sell me to my sister.

Wine cups in hand, the Yunkai’i wandered the garden in small groups, beneath lemon trees and night-blooming flowers, and Dany found herself face-to-face with Brown Ben Plumm.
He bowed low. “Worship. You look lovely. Well, you always did. None of them Yunkishmen are half so pretty. I thought I might bring a wedding gift for you, but the bidding went too high for old Brown Ben.”

“I want no gifts from you.”
“This one you might. The head of an old foe."

After Dany's wedding, we learn that Brown Ben was intending on buying Tyrion to give to Dany, not Cersei. (Not the first time that Tyrion mistakes a desire to sell him to Dany for a desire to sell him to Cersei, by the way.) And as Brown Ben calls Tyrion Dany's "old foe", he clearly assumed she'd view Tyrion negatively, so it's not exactly an odd assumption (nor "Dany-hating fanon") that others would think the same.

[Kyrion]

Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin.

This does not look like his throat is slashed open.

You did no post the entire quote:

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers.

This was not a barely grazed cut. Jon believed it was, but he is an unreliable narrator, as clearly shown when the omnipotent narrator started talking in second person, thats when the blood starting welling.

Anyways, whether Jon is dead or alive(We can trust the ASOIAF app on Iphone Im guessing that says he died) he will not come back some heroic good guy. He will came back angry, possibly loosing memories like Beric, possibly focused on just revenge like Stoneheart. Ice is cold humanity George said, Ice is revenge. Jon wont come back as some Azor Ahai Reborn jesus figure. He will be angry, have instincts/personality leaching from Ghost since he is a Warg as well.

[fangirl000]

A political marriage of expediency doesn't require romance.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Agreed. The whole 'Bran/Jon vs. Dany' or 'Stark/Others vs Targaryens' ending is a hypothesis that I see very little evidence for in the novels. Quite the opposite actually. To take just one example, Bran's vision in AGOT of Asshai, where 'dragons stirred beneath the sunrise', is tinged with awe and wonder. It's only when he glimpses the 'heart of winter' that he cries out in fear. I would hazard to claim that almost everything in the books points to Dany, Bran and Jon teaming up in the end...

Agreeed.

Both Bran and Dany's dreams have them running away from ice.

[six]

I think we've been given some pretty clear hints on how Jon will view Dany, none of them positive. Look at his thoughts on Selyse:

Initially, maybe. I'm willing to bet they'll be on the same side. It's going to be interesting to see them collide, and regardless of whether there will be a romance or not, it's pretty clear from their respective parallel/complimentary arcs that they're going to be the "big thing" in each others' storyline.

You did no post the entire quote:

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers.

This was not a barely grazed cut. Jon believed it was, but he is an unreliable narrator, as clearly shown when the omnipotent narrator started talking in second person, thats when the blood starting welling.

Anyways, whether Jon is dead or alive(We can trust the ASOIAF app on Iphone Im guessing that says he died) he will not come back some heroic good guy. He will came back angry, possibly loosing memories like Beric, possibly focused on just revenge like Stoneheart. Ice is cold humanity George said, Ice is revenge. Jon wont come back as some Azor Ahai Reborn jesus figure. He will be angry, have instincts/personality leaching from Ghost since he is a Warg as well.

This.

[LordStoneheart]

This was not a barely grazed cut. Jon believed it was, but he is an unreliable narrator, as clearly shown when the omnipotent narrator started talking in second person, thats when the blood starting welling.

I believe they're one and the same. It may not be a tiny gash, but it's not a throat slashing either.

[~DarkHorse~]

But it mentioned in a trio with men she will love. Khal Drogo, corpse smiling sadly on prow of a ship (Vic or Euron BTW) and blue rose in a wall.

We also have the Show symbolism.

Jon was in that bouquet of romance. ;)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Agreed. The whole 'Bran/Jon vs. Dany' or 'Stark/Others vs Targaryens' ending is a hypothesis that I see very little evidence for in the novels. Quite the opposite actually. To take just one example, Bran's vision in AGOT of Asshai, where 'dragons stirred beneath the sunrise', is tinged with awe and wonder. It's only when he glimpses the 'heart of winter' that he cries out in fear. I would hazard to claim that almost everything in the books points to Dany, Bran and Jon teaming up in the end...

Yeessssssssssss, oh bow before these three heads of the dragon!

[MoIaF]

We also have the Show symbolism.

Jon was in that bouquet of romance. ;)

Haha, good one. :D

Agreed. The whole 'Bran/Jon vs. Dany' or 'Stark/Others vs Targaryens' ending is a hypothesis that I see very little evidence for in the novels. Quite the opposite actually. To take just one example, Bran's vision in AGOT of Asshai, where 'dragons stirred beneath the sunrise', is tinged with awe and wonder. It's only when he glimpses the 'heart of winter' that he cries out in fear. I would hazard to claim that almost everything in the books points to Dany, Bran and Jon teaming up in the end...

Agreeed.

Both Bran and Dany's dreams have them running away from ice.

Yes, on my signature there is a thread (self promotion) detailing what Queen A mentioned above, Dany's fevered dream and Bran's coma dream. In both dreams they are running away from the ice/cold in fear. There are also many other similarities between them. And this is all in addition to Dany and Jon's parallel/complimentary arcs.

[Annara Snow]

You did no post the entire quote:

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers.

This was not a barely grazed cut. Jon believed it was, but he is an unreliable narrator, as clearly shown when the omnipotent narrator started talking in second person, thats when the blood starting welling.

There is no omnipotent narrator in ASOAIF.

I think we've been given some pretty clear hints on how Jon will view Dany, none of them positive. Look at his thoughts on Selyse:

And his thoughts on Ser Axell:

He thinks negatively of a woman who would willingly walk into flames and of someone who stood aside while his brother was burned alive. I doubt GRRM stuck these tidbits in there for no reason, given that they're pretty good descriptors of Dany.

So Brown Ben Plumm is part of the Dany-hating fanon? He certainly believed that Dany would be anti-Tyrion when he tried to buy Tyrion so he could hand him over to Dany:

After Dany's wedding, we learn that Brown Ben was intending on buying Tyrion to give to Dany, not Cersei. (Not the first time that Tyrion mistakes a desire to sell him to Dany for a desire to sell him to Cersei, by the way.) And as Brown Ben calls Tyrion Dany's "old foe", he clearly assumed she'd view Tyrion negatively, so it's not exactly an odd assumption (nor "Dany-hating fanon") that others would think the same.

Oh, so Brown Ben Plumm can read Dany's mind? I wasn't aware of that.

Hey, you know who can read Dany's mind?...We can. There are actually her POV chapters where we can read her internal thoughts! And there are 31 of them! Imagine that - we can actually read Dany's thoughts instead of relying on what Brown Ben Plumm thinks that she thinks. The former is a bit more reliable source on Dany's actualy thoughts.

[tze]

Oh, so Brown Ben Plumm can read Dany's mind? I wasn't aware of that.

Hey, you know who can read Dany's mind?...We can. There are actually her POV chapters where we can read her internal thoughts! And there are 31 of them! Imagine that - we can actually read Dany's thoughts instead of relying on what Brown Ben Plumm thinks that she thinks. The former is a bit more reliable source on Dany's actualy thoughts.

. . . My god. Really??

You know what's even better than the mind-blowing revelation that Dany has multiple POVs throughout ASOIAF? The revelation---which by the way, thank you from the bottom of my heart for bringing to my and this forum's attention---that a belief by an in-story character can actually constitute "fanon"! After all, as you so eloquently put it, "the whole "she hates entire Stark/Baratheon/Lannister families" is just Dany-hating fanon". I responded by pointing out how an in-story character who operated in Dany's vicinity for quite a while, Brown Ben Plumm, clearly believes that Dany will want Tyrion's head, so this idea actually can't be something dreamed up out of the visceral hatred of hordes of Dany-loathing forum-goers, but is an idea that has clearly at least occurred to the author himself. And you've poked such massive holes in my logic by pointing out how we have Dany's POVs and Brown Ben does not, which . . . somehow . . . makes an in-story character's opinion "fanon".

Is Brown Ben's opinion objectively correct? That's a completely different issue, and one I didn't venture an opinion on. According to you, he can't be, as something in Dany's thoughts indicates he's wrong. What you think that information is I can only guess at, since you didn't bother to post any actual support for your argument other than condescending nonsense.

I don't recall seeing anything in Dany's thoughts regarding the families of the Usurper's dogs, so it's not clear to me why anyone would so confidently assert that Dany's thoughts answer this question. It's not actually clear how many of the original "rebels" Dany even realizes is dead by this point---unless she bothered to question Quentyn off-page on the current political situation in Westeros, she probably still thinks Ned, Hoster, and Tywin (possibly even Jon Arryn, if she didn't bother questioning Barristan) are still alive, (hough actually, Quentyn thought Tywin was still alive, so there's that), to say nothing of the Renly/Stannis front. Her thoughts on the Usurper's Dogs clearly focus on Ned/Tywin/etc., but how would she react upon discovering that most of them are dead by this point? Her pretty obvious belief in collective guilt in Meereen doesn't bode well for the likelihood of her using some individualized standard in Westeros, particularly when the most obvious targets for her wrath are either dead or likely to be dead by her arrival, and her refusal to kill a bunch of child hostages that she'd been personally interacting with for weeks/months isn't necessarily an indicator that she'd be unwilling to go after a group of young strangers who will presumably not be pouring her wine for an extended period of time.

[Kyrion]

What do we call the narrator then that talks of the characters in the second person?

[siknes]

Tze

Great POV on what Dany thinks of the Usurper and his dogs, as she was told by her brother.

This is why Tyrion NEEDS to be her hand. On a different Blog/forum I wrote my version of what Tyrion will say to Dany.

Synopsis:

1) He killed his own father; the mouth that gave the order to kill her kin. "You see, I did you a favor."

2) She needs to stop acting like a little girl playing the GoT in a realm that is not hers and return to her rightful Westeros.(something that is totally Tyrion, talking shit, to figure out a person and their motivations)

Jorah: "She is Kaleese, how dare you call her otherwise, Imp." Tyrion: "Jorah, be quiet while I save our lives."

3) She needs him as her hand, because, "It is what I was born to do. I am the only one here that knows the whole realm of Westeros politics, and other things, and of your Dragons. As a boy I dreamt I was a dragon."

4) She needs to forgive, "This sad sack, Jorah, standing next to me."

Dany: "Why would I do that? He has betrayed me once before."

Tyrion: "Because he is as good as dead without you, because he loves you in the purest form I can imagine, and in my opinion is a worthy companion and ally."

Dany: "I have Ser Barristan as my advisor. Why would I need either of you? "

Tyrion: "Ser Barristan is a capable Queensguard and swordsman, this is true. I have seen his swordplay first hand. He could sever my head where I stand and give it to you as a gift. BUT you desire Westeros and the IT, and that is what I can help you accomplish, as your right hand." Tyrion bows and indicates Jorah to do the same. "Please, Kaleese, let us be at your service in gaining your true destiny."

What do you think?

[The Kinkslayer]

ASOIF is not a kissing story, so no.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

I agree with your overall point, especially the idea that Jon will view Dany negatively based on how he perceives Selyse and Axell (I'll also throw in his contempt for Selyse, showing up to a situation she knows nothing about and presuming to throw her weight around).

One thing: I thought Dany did know that Ned was dead, from Barristan or Jorah telling her. I might be misremembering. I do know that even when Barristan told her Ned spoke out against assassinating her, she still falls back on the "usurper's dog" line.

[Fire Eater]

One thing: I thought Dany did know that Ned was dead, from Barristan or Jorah telling her. I might be misremembering. I do know that even when Barristan told her Ned spoke out against assassinating her, she still falls back on the "usurper's dog" line.

No, you're remembering right, Barristan told Dany that Ned lost his head. Barristan said he prayed in Baelor's Sept afterward thanking the gods for Joffrey stripping him of his cloak, meaning he didn't view Ned's execution in a positive light, but as so horrible that it was one of the reasons why he thanked the gods for Joffrey stripping him of his cloak. Dany's response is that Ned was "a traitor who got a traitor's death" or Ned got what he deserved. Yet she fails to notice that while Barristan is usually silent or goes along with her when she rebukes Robert or the Lannisters, Barristan does the opposite with Ned, he defends him.

Barristan basically tells her that Ned resigned the office of the Hand, the second highest position in the 7K after the king, and the highest Ned could ever hope to achieve just over Robert's decision to have Dany killed. When Dany retorts the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon, Barristan replies that Ned had nothing to do with it.

Instead of thinking that Ned might have been a decent guy to have earned this kind of respect from Barristan, Dany just goes he was part of the same group so he is just as guilty, the same logic she applied to the 163 Meereenese nobles she nailed up. She shows to be a willful child in this, akin to Rickon sometimes forgetting that Ned was dead. Like Rickon, she refuses to believe something, because it goes contradictory to what she wants to believe to be true. She doesn't want to believe that a man who fought against her father might actually have been a good man. I think partly because if he was good man who fought against her father then her father might not have exactly been the paragon of virtue and Ned might have had a good reason to rebel.

I think Barristan's failing is trying to shelter her from the whole truth about her family's past: like her father's habit of burning people with wildfire including his Hands, and extra-judicially killing men without trial (like his Warden of the North and his heir).

[Sun]

I think there's very little doubt that Dany's immediate reaction to Tyrion would be "off with his head" level hate. His father orchestrated the murder of her nephews and the rape & murder of her sister in law, his sister married the usurper king, and his brother KILLED her father! Tyrion himself was a former acting hand of the usurper King's son until they forced him out.

Anyone who thinks Dany will immediately - or indeed ever - fully embrace Tyrion as a trusted adviser is engaging in wishful thinking, imo.

As to Jon, I agree with Tze on this. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Jon would admire Dany. Everything I know about her, everything I know about him and his taste in women (his taste in character not physicality), tells me she will be chalk to his cheese. Comparing Dany to Ygritte and Val tells me that. The instant she walks in spouting about being the Mother of Dragons and throwing her weight around, she will antagonize him. To say nothing of course of her own reaction to Jon being a Stark.