Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book?

[Veltigar]

It always baffles me when people say that Jon and Dany wouldn't get along:

1) Both have always been outsiders. He as a bastard and she as a Targaryen in exile

2) Both have lost a brother, a father, a lover, a mother, friends, a home, etc. people bond over these type of things
3) Both are visionary and compassionate leaders. Jon's policy towards the Wildlings, Dany's quest to free slaves. They all illustrate a similar kind of inclusive vision to the future of the realm

4) Both were very young when trust in a position of leadership
5) Both managed to integrate in a culture the outside world sees as barbaric and they managed to see the good things (and the flaws) in both societies

6) Both long for a home. We saw that in Jon's contemplation about whether or not to take WF and in Dany's Red door dreams.

7) Both have a tendency to bite of more than they can chew. With Jon it ended in a stabby ending and in Dany's case it led to her being played by the Harpy, which culminated in an assassination attempt.

8) Both will have survived things they shouldn't have survived if they ever meat. Most people who walk into a pyre burn to a crisp. Dany didn't. Most people who get stabbed four times like Jon don't survive, but he did.
9) The only thing Drogo and Daario have in common are the fact that they are warriors and leaders of men. Jon is a warlord himself, battle tested and a true leader. Jon on the other hand seems to admire compassion and strength in the women he likes. Dany has a shitton full of that.

10) ...

Seems like they have more than enough in common. Add to that that Daenerys is the most beautiful woman in the world, Jon one of the only males in the books who respects women's rights and opinions and the high likelihood of an absolute ton of political advantages in uniting their claims and I do think that a marriage would be likely.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

No, you're remembering right, Barristan told Dany that Ned lost his head. Barristan said he prayed in Baelor's Sept afterward thanking the gods for Joffrey stripping him of his cloak, meaning he didn't view Ned's execution in a positive light, but as so horrible that it was one of the reasons why he thanked the gods for Joffrey stripping him of his cloak. Dany's response is that Ned was "a traitor who got a traitor's death" or Ned got what he deserved. Yet she fails to notice that while Barristan is usually silent or goes along with her when she rebukes Robert or the Lannisters, Barristan does the opposite with Ned, he defends him.

Barristan basically tells her that Ned resigned the office of the Hand, the second highest position in the 7K after the king, and the highest Ned could ever hope to achieve just over Robert's decision to have Dany killed. When Dany retorts the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon, Barristan replies that Ned had nothing to do with it.

Instead of thinking that Ned might have been a decent guy to have earned this kind of respect from Barristan, Dany just goes he was part of the same group so he is just as guilty, the same logic she applied to the 163 Meereenese nobles she nailed up. She shows to be a willful child in this, akin to Rickon sometimes forgetting that Ned was dead.

I think you are omitting an important part of that conversation. During that conversation Dany remembers Drogon ate Hazzea, so just like Ned is guilty even though he was indirectly involved, Dany feels she is also guilty in Hazzea'a death even though she was indirectly involved, which is exactly her view of collective punishment.

Since these are parallels in Dany's mind, if she forgives her self that was indirectly involved it means she will forgive Ned that was also indirectly involved and it serves as learning process for Dany on the school of justice.

She forgives herself by the end of ADWD which is a good sign that she is ready to forgive people that are indirectly involved in a crime.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It always baffles me when people say that Jon and Dany wouldn't get along:

1) Both have always been outsiders. He as a bastard and she as a Targaryen in exile

2) Both have lost a brother, a father, a lover, a mother, friends, a home, etc. people bond over these type of things

3) Both are visionary and compassionate leaders. Jon's policy towards the Wildlings, Dany's quest to free slaves. They all illustrate a similar kind of inclusive vision to the future of the realm

4) Both were very young when trust in a position of leadership

5) Both managed to integrate in a culture the outside world sees as barbaric and they managed to see the good things (and the flaws) in both societies

6) Both long for a home. We saw that in Jon's contemplation about whether or not to take WF and in Dany's Red door dreams.

7) Both have a tendency to bite of more than they can chew. With Jon it ended in a stabby ending and in Dany's case it led to her being played by the Harpy, which culminated in an assassination attempt.

8) Both will have survived things they shouldn't have survived if they ever meat. Most people who walk into a pyre burn to a crisp. Dany didn't. Most people who get stabbed four times like Jon don't survive, but he did.

9) The only thing Drogo and Daario have in common are the fact that they are warriors and leaders of men. Jon is a warlord himself, battle tested and a true leader. Jon on the other hand seems to admire compassion and strength in the women he likes. Dany has a shitton full of that.

10) ...

Seems like they have more than enough in common.

Absolutely I agree. They have a very high amount of things in common and to top it all they are both the only remaining blood of the dragon. I am still not 100% they will have some great love affair, but they should have no problems with each other to begin with for any reason. I dont get why everyone thinks Dany will not even acknowledge him because he doesnt have a gold tooth, c'mon that is simply not true.

[KINGpanther]

But the big thing with Jon is he is devoted to the old gods who forbid incest.

[Annara Snow]

I think there's very little doubt that Dany's immediate reaction to Tyrion would be "off with his head" level hate. His father orchestrated the murder of her nephews and the rape & murder of her sister in law, his sister married the usurper king, and his brother KILLED her father! Tyrion himself was a former acting hand of the usurper King's son until they forced him out.

Anyone who thinks Dany will immediately - or indeed ever - fully embrace Tyrion as a trusted adviser is engaging in wishful thinking, imo.

The bolded part is also wishful thinking, only of other fans.

As to Jon, I agree with Tze on this. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Jon would admire Dany. Everything I know about her, everything I know about him and his taste in women (his taste in character not physicality), tells me she will be chalk to his cheese. Comparing Dany to Ygritte and Val tells me that. The instant she walks in spouting about being the Mother of Dragons and throwing her weight around, she will antagonize him. To say nothing of course of her own reaction to Jon being a Stark.

I know, right? Because Ygritte was such a nice, quiet, non-assertive, non-antagonizing person!

[Annara Snow]

. . . My god. Really??

You know what's even better than the mind-blowing revelation that Dany has multiple POVs throughout ASOIAF? The revelation---which by the way, thank you from the bottom of my heart for bringing to my and this forum's attention---that a belief by an in-story character can actually constitute "fanon"! After all, as you so eloquently put it, "the whole "she hates entire Stark/Baratheon/Lannister families" is just Dany-hating fanon". I responded by pointing out how an in-story character who operated in Dany's vicinity for quite a while, Brown Ben Plumm, clearly believes that Dany will want Tyrion's head, so this idea actually can't be something dreamed up out of the visceral hatred of hordes of Dany-loathing forum-goers, but is an idea that has clearly at least occurred to the author himself. And you've poked such massive holes in my logic by pointing out how we have Dany's POVs and Brown Ben does not, which . . . somehow . . . makes an in-story character's opinion "fanon".

Is Brown Ben's opinion objectively correct? That's a completely different issue, and one I didn't venture an opinion on. According to you, he can't be, as something in Dany's thoughts indicates he's wrong. What you think that information is I can only guess at, since you didn't bother to post any actual support for your argument other than condescending nonsense.

I don't recall seeing anything in Dany's thoughts regarding the families of the Usurper's dogs, so it's not clear to me why anyone would so confidently assert that Dany's thoughts answer this question. It's not actually clear how many of the original "rebels" Dany even realizes is dead by this point---unless she bothered to question Quentyn off-page on the current political situation in Westeros, she probably still thinks Ned, Hoster, and Tywin (possibly even Jon Arryn, if she didn't bother questioning Barristan) are still alive, (hough actually, Quentyn thought Tywin was still alive, so there's that), to say nothing of the Renly/Stannis front. Her thoughts on the Usurper's Dogs clearly focus on Ned/Tywin/etc., but how would she react upon discovering that most of them are dead by this point? Her pretty obvious belief in collective guilt in Meereen doesn't bode well for the likelihood of her using some individualized standard in Westeros, particularly when the most obvious targets for her wrath are either dead or likely to be dead by her arrival, and her refusal to kill a bunch of child hostages that she'd been personally interacting with for weeks/months isn't necessarily an indicator that she'd be unwilling to go after a group of young strangers who will presumably not be pouring her wine for an extended period of time.

+++ points for the ability to write over-dramatic posts, although the post needs more smilies. Bolded italics are a nice touch, though.

---------------points for failing to provide any textual evidence that Dany hates the family members of Ned Stark and Tywin/Jaime Lannister to the point that she would want to kill them all. One would think those claiming that are the ones who need to come up with evidence, but no. Hey, you know what, let's just assume that every POV character wants to rape people and murder children, unless it's explicitly stated in their POV that they really, really don't want to?

[MoIaF]

But the big thing with Jon is he is devoted to the old gods who forbid incest.

Jon didn't seem to bothere about it until Ygritte said something, even then he never agreed with her afterwards.

I think he might be ambivalent about it because he doesn't know Dany. It would be different if they had grown up together.

It always baffles me when people say that Jon and Dany wouldn't get along:

1) Both have always been outsiders. He as a bastard and she as a Targaryen in exile

2) Both have lost a brother, a father, a lover, a mother, friends, a home, etc. people bond over these type of things

3) Both are visionary and compassionate leaders. Jon's policy towards the Wildlings, Dany's quest to free slaves. They all illustrate a similar kind of inclusive vision to the future of the realm

4) Both were very young when trust in a position of leadership

5) Both managed to integrate in a culture the outside world sees as barbaric and they managed to see the good things (and the flaws) in both societies

6) Both long for a home. We saw that in Jon's contemplation about whether or not to take WF and in Dany's Red door dreams.

7) Both have a tendency to bite of more than they can chew. With Jon it ended in a stabby ending and in Dany's case it led to her being played by the Harpy, which culminated in an assassination attempt.

8) Both will have survived things they shouldn't have survived if they ever meat. Most people who walk into a pyre burn to a crisp. Dany didn't. Most people who get stabbed four times like Jon don't survive, but he did.

9) The only thing Drogo and Daario have in common are the fact that they are warriors and leaders of men. Jon is a warlord himself, battle tested and a true leader. Jon on the other hand seems to admire compassion and strength in the women he likes. Dany has a shitton full of that.

10) ...

Seems like they have more than enough in common. Add to that that Daenerys is the most beautiful woman in the world, Jon one of the only males in the books who respects women's rights and opinions and the high likelihood of an absolute ton of political advantages in uniting their claims and I do think that a marriage would be likely.

Excellent list, and you can still add more to it. I've said it in other thread but they not only have parallel arcs their arcs are also complimentary in many instances.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

+++ points for the ability to write over-dramatic posts, although the post needs more smilies. Bolded italics are a nice touch, though.

---------------points for failing to provide any textual evidence that Dany hates the family members of Ned Stark and Tywin/Jaime Lannister to the point that she would want to kill them all. One would think those claiming that are the ones who need to come up with evidence, but no. Hey, you know what, let's just assume that every POV character wants to rape people and murder children, unless it's explicitly stated in their POV that they really, really don't want to?

Yes Annara Snow, I agree that there is really no way to tell at this point how Dany will act towards people she has never met, and honestly I don't really see the merit in discussing it. I see from Dany-haters all over going on and on about her words 'usurper's dogs' which she only actually says a handful of times and of course which she has never acted on. OK Robert Baratheon sent a murderer after her with poison wine. He took her fathers throne, killed her relatives, then 14 years later is still very worried about killing her. So he sends assassins after her. She has not retaliated at all ever. She is the Queen of Merreen, if she really wanted to she could send her own killers over to Westeros to try and kill some pregnant women if she wanted, but she never does. She isn't sweating what is going on half a world away while her current city is having so many problems. that would be a childish thing to do, and would not help out Mereen at all. Which is completely the opposite of the way KL is run and has been run(they are the childish ones). Maybe Robert should have been more worried about all the money he was borrowing, or the fact that people in the 7K were not planning properly for winter, but he wasn't....Instead his main concerns were killing Dany, mourning Lyanna (deceased for 14 years) and throwing a ridiculous tourney in honor of his new hand, who did not even want or care about said tourney.

Dany talking shit about people in Westeros is just that, a few loose words which dont really matter. IMO why can't posters, like TZE, worry more about how she treats the usurpers to their faces when she finally sees them? Like Tyrion, once GRRM gets WoW finished I am quite certain we will all see exactly how Dany decides to handle Tyrion, until then It is quite an overblown form of Dany-Hatred to criticize her for possibly (or not) killing someone in the future. I mean when has anyone benefited from trading future shares? We don't know what's going to happen, so there is absolutely no reason to give Dany a hard-time at this point in the writing....Just wait til the book comes out, then decide what to hate her for.

[Ghost's Shadow]

But the big thing with Jon is he is devoted to the old gods who forbid incest.

But who's the closest thing to a god we've seen? Brynden Rivers, who slept with his own half-sister. His gods did not strike him down for it, as he's still alive.

[Melisandros Megas]

Jon's dead, so no.

[The Mother of The Others]

It always baffles me when people say that Jon and Dany wouldn't get along:

1) 2) 3) 4) 5) 6) 7) 8) 9) 10) ...

By your command! :drool: It's Fire/Ice Romeo and Juliett. with the Old Gods & the Fire God as the Capulets and Montegues (who will froth and be wroth when these two youngsters hook up). Multiple gods (and cultures) will have to confront their own prejudices! Who will win out, the entire cultures or the kids who are trying to be bigger than their cultures???? Is two of them a big enough conspiracy to take on the world???

their blind date will be activity-based, the kind of introduction you can't fake your way through like a sit-down dinner date because they'll be in the thick of changing the world and their inner sameness will become self-evident by how they respond to whatever the crisis is. an easy comradery comes from seeing that the other person is already your natural ally situationally.

Jon's dead, so no.

Crap! This is a major setback for any Romeo. It didn't stop Shakespeare's Romeo, though he did wait till the fifth act to off himself while Jon has died at the end of the fifth book. It's a considerable roadblock to love, the way he died before the love affair began. This presents a challenge for Daenerys. Can she keep pace with Jon in this relationship?

[Gordar]

Assuming that Jon survives/resurrects from his current state, I still think it's doubtful Dany and Jon will end up together.

Dany will probably land close to or south of King's landing, cause that's where her allies are (assuming Dorne will ally with Dany) & she can't use an enemy army of Lannisters (& Gods know who else) behind her back, so she's going to be busy conquering the South while the North falls to the Others.

Considering that fighting when you cannot win is rather useless, I think it's safe to assume the Others have a way to pass the wall & if they do, not even Stannis' armies will be enough to stop them, This is an assumption, I know, but really, would the Others be so ill prepared that they didn't account for massive armies standing against them and a wall they cannot possibly pass?.

Simply put, if Jon doesn't manage to hold at least 1 fort and one piece of the wall itself free of the Others (I doubt the commander of the night's watch will run), he's most likely going to be dead or undead by the time Dany arrives with her dragons & I doubt she's going to marry a wight who only wants to kill her.

[Sun]

We don't know how much the IB loaned to Stannis for us to say this . It is not uncommon for banks to hedge their bets. Keep funding the Lannisters say (90%) but hedging it by giving Stannis a (10%) one time loan just in case Davos is right.

I suspect that is what the IB did. Smart move if so. The relatively small loan to Stannis serves many purposes and will pay off huge if Davos is right.

The point I am trying to make is are we totally sure that the IB is strictly an either / or lending institution? Why can't they do both?

Banks don't gamble, they hedge to limit their loss not to increase their profit.

Why needlessly antagonize the IT, along with 2 of the most powerful families in Westeros, now? After it has won the war? Surely the time for the IB to hedge its bets was while the war was raging full swing and the outcome was still in question?

And Stannis is not what I would call a hedge, certainly not at this juncture in the storyline. He's a huge gamble, with down far greater, and more likely than the up.

The IB, if indeed a proper bank, should have done its risk assessment a long time ago, at the beginning of the war, and should have continued to do so all through. Nothing Davos told them is new information. It should not sway them. And as a risk, in his present state, Stannis is not worth taking. Let's not forget, if Stannis should for any reason whatsoever happen to die, his claim dies with him. And There will be no one to repay the bank its loan.

We can argue this all day, and I still say the loan does not make sense. Simply put, Stannis is not a good credit risk at this juncture, and the IB has no incentive, or purpose, of its own to induce it to gamble on him.

[Veltigar]

But the big thing with Jon is he is devoted to the old gods who forbid incest.

And this has just been chucked through the window. Just follow this link to a sample from TWOIAF with A STARK FAMILY TREE!!!! http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

AND GUESS WHAT LAST NAME NED'S MOTHER HAS!!!!

Ned's mother was a STARK. Lord Rickard married Lyarra of House Stark, his second cousin!!! In this short sample there are three examples of Stark cousins marrying each other. So, fuck the Old Gods I reckon

Excellent list, and you can still add more to it. I've said it in other thread but they not only have parallel arcs their arcs are also complimentary in many instances.

:agree:

[LordStoneheart]

Wait, wtf? Tryion Lannister????

I'm alright with this Lyarra Stark business and it totally explains Arya and Sansa's names, but Tryion Lannister? How did that make it past editing?

[Veltigar]

Wait, wtf? Tryion Lannister????

I'm alright with this Lyarra Stark business and it totally explains Arya and Sansa's names, but Tryion Lannister? How did that make it past editing?

Ran said in the TWOIAF thread that this was a very early version. Not really meant for the general public. Perhaps the sample that will be released wednesday will contain the same pieces, only then they'll be properly copy-edited.

[LordStoneheart]

Ran said in the TWOIAF thread that this was a very early version. Not really meant for the general public. Perhaps the sample that will be released wednesday will contain the same pieces, only then they'll be properly copy-edited.

Ah ok... So how many theories does this new image put to death? :D

[Veltigar]

Ah ok... So how many theories does this new image put to death? :D

1) Starks would never practise Incest

2) As of Cregan Stark, there is a 100% certainty that there is no Targ blood in the Stark line

3) Only three marriages outside of the North in the whole Stark family tree (Southron ambitions seems a bit more likely)

4) Rodrik "the wandering wolf" stark isn't the same Rodrik who won Bear Island

5) Ned's mother was Skagosi

there are probably more, but these are the ones I could think off.

[David Selig]

Cousin marriage is not incest according to Westeros views (and the views of most of the world currently, BTW). Aunt and nephew is considered incest though.

[MoIaF]

And this has just been chucked through the window. Just follow this link to a sample from TWOIAF with A STARK FAMILY TREE!!!! http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

AND GUESS WHAT LAST NAME NED'S MOTHER HAS!!!!

Ned's mother was a STARK. Lord Rickard married Lyarra of House Stark, his second cousin!!! In this short sample there are three examples of Stark cousins marrying each other. So, fuck the Old Gods I reckon

:agree:

Thank you, this is great. :D