since when is Aegon (F)Aegon?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I always looked at it like he wasn't a dragon, because Dany thinks that herself. She says something along the lines of "he was no true dragon", or she at least thinks that to herself.

What Dany thinks is not necessarily right. He was a Targ so he was a dragon. If he wasn't then who was? Only Dany?

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

He is a Blackfyre, Rhaegar's son, both, or just some child Varys picked.

Here's hoping Martin will never go for the last one, because that would be truly disappointing...

[Leonardo]

He is a Blackfyre, Rhaegar's son, both, or just some child Varys picked.

Here's hoping Martin will never go for the last one, because that would be truly disappointing...

Why?

It would completely live up to everything Varys has said from book 1, that claims are shit and everyone should be thinking about the good of the realm.

[Veltigar]

Yeah, Dany I in AGoT, the very same chapter that establishes Dany's and Viserys's hair and eye color, and the importance of them, also establishes that Illyrio has yellow hair rather than silver-blond, and describes his eyes without mentioning their color. Much later, Tyrion's chapter again describes his hair as yellow, and again describes his eyes without mentioning their color.

Of course those who really want to believe in the Brightfyre theory can always argue that a Targ-descendant who doesn't have Valyrian looks and wants to breed a claimant to the throne has even more reason to marry a relative than one with Valyrian looks would, to bring out the recessive genes

+ there are tons of Targaryens without the full Targ look. Rhaenyra's sons all looked like Strongs (brown hair, ...), Good Queen Alyssane had blue eyes instead of Targaryen purple, Baelor Breakspear looked Dornish, Daeron the Drunken had brown hair IIRC, pretty sure some of the maidens from the Tower had (partially) blond hair, etc.

[Fae Boleyn]

He is a Blackfyre, Rhaegar's son, both, or just some child Varys picked.

Here's hoping Martin will never go for the last one, because that would be truly disappointing...

Both? As in both Rhaegar's son and a Blackfyre? Because I have a pet fun theory about that.

[Facebookless Man]

The "they wanna go home" tag line is ridiculous as most of them have never even SEEN westeros.

Neither has Daenerys. The idea that they wish to reclaim their fathers' lands and titles is a lot less ridiculous than the idea that they're being faithful to a vow they never made to support a family they never met.

[A Man Reads]

The theories for Aegon being fake are well-reasoned and quite good (I don't normally say this about theories on the board either). Personally, I would probably join the (f)Aegon camp if it came to choosing sides.

I think GRRM is keeping Aegon's legitimacy deliberately uncertain at this point. Pretenders of uncertain lineage and legitimacy were a reality during the middle ages. The War of the Roses had a few; and there are examples going back to the dawn of history. Aegon may be fake or he may be real. Either way he is a serious claimant. Being the only Targaryen in Westeros is enough to ensure that at the moment.

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

Why?

It would completely live up to everything Varys has said from book 1, that claims are shit and everyone should be thinking about the good of the realm.

The whole introduction of the Shy Maid crew was written beautifully and Aegon has much potential for these last two books. I would rather seeing him conquer the Iron Throne as a real Targaryen or a Blackfyre than seeing him as a pawn in Varys schemes.

Because if that were to be the case there's a big chance he'll just get rid of him when his role ends to put someone else he thinks is even more easy to control.

If you think about it, Aegon was only plan C after Viserys and Daenerys afterall.

Both? As in both Rhaegar's son and a Blackfyre? Because I have a pet fun theory about that.

Yes, even tough I personally think that is quite unlikely.

If I were Martin I wouldn't waste my time explaining why he is both, he's one or the other.

What are the odds of finding both an heir to the Blackfyres and Targaryens in a young boy everybody thought dead for years?

[cade]

The whole introduction of the Shy Maid crew was written beautifully and Aegon has much potential for these last two books. I would rather seeing him conquer the Iron Throne as a real Targaryen or a Blackfyre than seeing him as a pawn in Varys schemes.

Because if that were to be the case there's a big chance he'll just get rid of him when his role ends to put someone else he thinks is even more easy to control.

If you think about it, Aegon was only plan C after Viserys and Daenerys afterall.

Many think he was always plan A and that Varys & Illyrio just wanted Viserys and the Dothraki to soften up the realm for fAegon's subsequent invasion. Varys will stick with him through the end, imo, though I think it will be arriving shortly.

[Consigliere]

The only way to prove it is to get Varys and Illyrio to tell... Which isn't going to happen :P

I seriously consider that we might never find out, and that we'll be having these conversations 20 years from now as well..

It could be left ambiguous as to whether Aegon is the real deal or not. I would really hate that though.

In the Dance prologue, Pycelle was reading a tome before he was killed. I suspect the tome contained some info that could prove Aegons identity. Perhaps a birthmark or something. It will be interesting to see whether the tome is missing from the scene when TWoW is released.

[johndance]

This is one theory that just doesn't have enough evidence one way or another to actually come up with a good educated guess. This is just going to have to be a wait and see. The arguments people make towards him being fake are not strong at all. People want him to be fake, so they are reaching and coming up with 5 or 6 points which really don't prove anything. At the same time, there isn't much that backs up he is real, either. We get JC telling us that he is the real Aegon. That's about it. So it's wait and see time. At this point, I'm taking this at face value and assume that he is real, until actually proven otherwise. GRRM will probably kill him off though so Jon or Dany's claims aren't hindered.

[Fae Boleyn]

The whole introduction of the Shy Maid crew was written beautifully and Aegon has much potential for these last two books. I would rather seeing him conquer the Iron Throne as a real Targaryen or a Blackfyre than seeing him as a pawn in Varys schemes.

Because if that were to be the case there's a big chance he'll just get rid of him when his role ends to put someone else he thinks is even more easy to control.

If you think about it, Aegon was only plan C after Viserys and Daenerys afterall.

Yes, even tough I personally think that is quite unlikely.

If I were Martin I wouldn't waste my time explaining why he is both, he's one or the other.

What are the odds of finding both an heir to the Blackfyres and Targaryens in a young boy everybody thought dead for years?

Yes, it is quite unlikely - my idea was Elia's father was of the Blackfyre line, since literally all we know was he was the consort of her also-unnamed mother. But as I said, I came up with that for my own amusement, if it turned out true I'd fall off my chair in shock. But it's a fun thought - imagine the reactions here.

[Chebyshov]

This is one theory that just doesn't have enough evidence one way or another to actually come up with a good educated guess. This is just going to have to be a wait and see. The arguments people make towards him being fake are not strong at all. People want him to be fake, so they are reaching and coming up with 5 or 6 points which really don't prove anything. At the same time, there isn't much that backs up he is real, either. We get JC telling us that he is the real Aegon. That's about it. So it's wait and see time. At this point, I'm taking this at face value and assume that he is real, until actually proven otherwise. GRRM will probably kill him off though so Jon or Dany's claims aren't hindered.

:agree:

I've tried to craft theories that argue one way or the other and nothing is definitive. And in some ways that's the best part of Aegon's character. How is Dany going to act when she'll have no guarantee of his heritage? What about the other houses? He probably has the makings to be the best ruler, but is that all that's required? The possibilities are endless, and exciting.

What isn't exciting is people arguing solidly one way or the other, because you basically have to stick your fingers in your ears to do this.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The only way to prove it is to get Varys and Illyrio to tell... Which isn't going to happen :P

I seriously consider that we might never find out, and that we'll be having these conversations 20 years from now as well..

As to the easy acceptance of Westeros..

Arianne already has doubts about Aegon's identity, Doran has doubts, Daemon Sand had doubts

so it's not going to be extremely easy for Aegon to convince them all he's the real deal. On the other hand, Kevan, who was at KL when it all happened, considers how Aegon might not have died..

Someone in an interview should ask GRRM is we're ever going to find out for sure.. Just to get our minds at ease.. :)

Well after thinking more about it, We know that GRRM said several more people would sit the throne before the end, I think fAegon is going to be next, which means his mummer's ploy wont last long, but it's very possible that whatever kicks him off the throne will not have anything to do with the fact that he is a mummer.

But you are right about people doubting him, I mean if this Blackfyre Rebellion is in the same spirit as the others then probably about half the country will think he's fake and the other half wont. PLus what Lord Too Fat was saying above. JonCon's entire story he has been selling has been a lie, so ppl may not believe him now that he all of a sudden is completely changing his whole 'i drank myself to death story'. fAegon has recruited the GC, who are untrustworthy sellswords who come from the blackfyre instituted GC. So maybe it wont be acceptance from everyone, but you could definitely be right about us never finding out the definitive truth (although I really hope not). I really hope we eventually get a ILlyrio POV so bad!!!

[SerArthurHeath]

I'm sure someone has beaten me to it but this line in aDwD is interesting:

About Aegon/YG- "“You’re Young Griff, son of Griff the sellsword,” said Tyrion. “Or perhaps you are the Warrior in mortal

guise. Let me take a closer look.”"

Daemon Blackfyre - "Daemon was the Warrior himself that day"

"With ax or lance or flail, he was as good as any knight I ever saw, but withthe sword he was the Warrior himself"

and I think I'm missing another Blackfyre-Warrior quote somewhere too

[Mithras]

I'm sure someone has beaten me to it but this line in aDwD is interesting:

About Aegon/YG- "“You’re Young Griff, son of Griff the sellsword,” said Tyrion. “Or perhaps you are the Warrior in mortal

guise. Let me take a closer look.”"

Daemon Blackfyre - "Daemon was the Warrior himself that day"

"With ax or lance or flail, he was as good as any knight I ever saw, but withthe sword he was the Warrior himself"

and I think I'm missing another Blackfyre-Warrior quote somewhere too

It is a good catch. I think you should post that also in the Moments of Foreshadowing thread.

I really hope we eventually get a ILlyrio POV so bad!!!

I don't think GRRM would like to give a POV to such top class conspirators. That would be telling. Besides, I don't think GRRM will give definite proofs of Young Griff's true parentage (real or fake). At the moment, IMO the evidences for him being fake are very convincing and if he were the real deal, a lot of material would be redundant.

Yes, it is quite unlikely - my idea was Elia's father was of the Blackfyre line, since literally all we know was he was the consort of her also-unnamed mother. But as I said, I came up with that for my own amusement, if it turned out true I'd fall off my chair in shock. But it's a fun thought - imagine the reactions here.

A princess of Dorne cannot marry a consort of uncertain origin and no one could marry a known Blackfyre descendant during the reign of the Targaryens. That would be open rebellion.

This is one theory that just doesn't have enough evidence one way or another to actually come up with a good educated guess. This is just going to have to be a wait and see. The arguments people make towards him being fake are not strong at all. People want him to be fake, so they are reaching and coming up with 5 or 6 points which really don't prove anything. At the same time, there isn't much that backs up he is real, either. We get JC telling us that he is the real Aegon. That's about it. So it's wait and see time. At this point, I'm taking this at face value and assume that he is real, until actually proven otherwise. GRRM will probably kill him off though so Jon or Dany's claims aren't hindered.

If there is not much to tell that he is real, then why do we take it for granted that he is real, because he is officially dead?

[Disputatious]

Much of it is meta: many people find it unlikely that such a character would be introduced so late in the series if he were legit: you get the fans all worked up over who has the better claim for the throne (Jon, assuming R+L=J is accurate AND that R+J were married before his birth, has a stronger claim than Dany) then suddenly "lol, nm, the real king was here all along!" It would be like watching a basketball game, and one side rooting for Kobe, the other side rooting for LeBron, then all of a sudden the mascot takes off his mask and IT'S MICHAEL JORDAN THE WHOLE TIME.

Basically, they spent the first 3 novels rooting for one claimant or another, and there wasn't room in their hearts for another one.

The rest of it comes from the idea that he's "the mummer's dragon" which many people interpret to mean "fake dragon".

The "many people" includes Daenerys Targaryen: "a cloth dragon on poles" was the way she explained it to Ser Jorah. Aegon will not get the Daenerys Targaryen kiss of approval, and, as Homeless Harry is probably right about the need for that, Aegon's cause will flounder, especially if he is foolish enough not to fight in the War for the Dawn.