R+L=J v.156

[Lord Varys]

I don't have read that essay, but the idea that Lyanna felt something for Robert cannot be discounted easily. I mean, they had been betrothed for a long time, and her not being happy with him having other women before their marriage doesn't mean she didn't feel attracted to him in a way. Essentially Robert and Lyanna are much more alike personality-wise than Rhaegar and Lyanna. They were both active, fierce, and adventurous people, and one could easily see young Robert and young(er) Lyanna go together on a mad horse race exploring the vast pasture of the Vale in summer during a visit of the Stark family with Ned and Jon (and the Stark kin in the Vale).

 

Robert must have personally known Lyanna Stark before he decided to ask for her hand through Ned. Else he wouldn't have developed such strong feelings for her. And it may have never crossed his mind to marry a Stark girl if he had never met her. I mean, we are talking about Robert here. His parents died before they had brokered a match for him, apparently, and there is little reason to assume that the Lord of Storm's End would concede to or even contemplate the idea of marrying a woman he has never even seen or interacted with before. If you are a man grown and the head of your house you make those decision yourself.

[LadyMary]

I don't have read that essay, but the idea that Lyanna felt something for Robert cannot be discounted easily. I mean, they had been betrothed for a long time, and her not being happy with him having other women before their marriage doesn't mean she didn't feel attracted to him in a way. Essentially Robert and Lyanna are much more alike personality-wise than Rhaegar and Lyanna. They were both active, fierce, and adventurous people, and one could easily see young Robert and young(er) Lyanna go together on a mad horse race exploring the vast pasture of the Vale in summer during a visit of the Stark family with Ned and Jon (and the Stark kin in the Vale).

 

Robert must have personally known Lyanna Stark before he decided to ask for her hand through Ned. Else he wouldn't have developed such strong feelings for her. And it may have never crossed his mind to marry a Stark girl if he had never met her. I mean, we are talking about Robert here. His parents died before they had brokered a match for him, apparently, and there is little reason to assume that the Lord of Storm's End would concede to or even contemplate the idea of marrying a woman he has never even seen or interacted with before. If you are a man grown and the head of your house you make those decision yourself.

 

I don't see a reason to doubt Lyanna's own words on the subject of Robert. The only thing we know from textual evidence was that she felt wariness about Robert's character. She did not seem to be happy about the prospect of marriage to him. 

 

I don't see any reason to doubt Ned when he told Robert "you didn't know her". Robert saw her beauty but didn't know her personality. I didn't get the sense that Robert had gotten to know Lyanna very well at all. No doubt Robert had met Lyanna because she was the sister of his best friend/foster brother, but that doesn't mean he had more than a superficial knowledge of Lyanna. Even if Robert hadn't met Lyanna before the match, I'd reckon the idea of marrying the sister of his best friend and daughter of one of the highest lords would have been appealing, even sight unseen. The fact that Lyanna was beautiful was icing on the cake.  I also had the impression that Jon Arryn may have played a part in arranging the marriage of Robert and Lyanna, so it's not like Robert was completely on his own. 

 

As far as personalities, we know that Robert was impulsive and pledged love to everyone he bedded and then dumped them afterwards, according to his best friend Ned. Ned always thought the best about people, but I think Lyanna had a better understanding of what Robert would be like as a husband. And if Lyanna and Robert were more alike, that would have been disastrous, in my opinion. 

[UnViserion]

Philandering aside, I think Robert was as good a match as a free spirited woman like Lyanna could have hoped for.

he would have let her pursue whatever personal endeavors she desired. He didn't "see the iron underneath," but doubtless he knew her hobbies didn't align with the typical highborn lady, and he loved her all the same.

[Lord Varys]

LadyMary,

 

we know that Ned arranged the Lyanna-Robert match after Robert asked him to speak about that to his father. That's from the App. Jon Arryn had nothing to do with that as far as we know. I agree that in light of Robert's friendship with Ned and the Starks in general there is a very strong possibility that a Lyanna-Robert match might have been made even without the two ever meeting each other, but it does not seem as if that was the case. A Baratheon-Stark match would have been an unusual and unexpected match in general, and one assumes that Robert had had other marriage offers both from local Stormlords as well as from other greater and lesser houses in the South. He was the closest cousin of House Targaryen, after all.

 

In turn, Stark daughters seemed to marry seldom into non-Northern or non-First Men houses, so the friendship between Ned and Robert might not have been enough if Rickard hadn't also had those 'Southron ambitions', intending to play an important role in the politics of the Realm.

 

I'm not saying Lyanna was fine with Robert having other women - she clearly was not - but that doesn't mean she didn't love him or wasn't attracted to him. She may have wanted even more from a man she intended to marry, and the idea that she saw that in Rhaegar isn't far-fetched. But that doesn't mean she did not love Robert, too, at least at one point, or that she wasn't attracted to him.

 

Ned's 'you didn't know her' is spoken at a later time, when he knew a lot more about Lyanna than he himself might have known previously. It is rather likely that Ned/Benjen were as much convinced of the rape/forced marriage idea Robert was or else the Starks wouldn't have supported Robert's Rebellion at all. They would have tried to contact Rhaegar to make a deal with him and get him to move against his father with their help.

[purple-eyes]

LadyMary,
 
we know that Ned arranged the Lyanna-Robert match after Robert asked him to speak about that to his father. That's from the App. Jon Arryn had nothing to do with that as far as we know. I agree that in light of Robert's friendship with Ned and the Starks in general there is a very strong possibility that a Lyanna-Robert match might have been made even without the two ever meeting each other, but it does not seem as if that was the case. A Baratheon-Stark match would have been an unusual and unexpected match in general, and one assumes that Robert had had other marriage offers both from local Stormlords as well as from other greater and lesser houses in the South. He was the closest cousin of House Targaryen, after all.
 
In turn, Stark daughters seemed to marry seldom into non-Northern or non-First Men houses, so the friendship between Ned and Robert might not have been enough if Rickard hadn't also had those 'Southron ambitions', intending to play an important role in the politics of the Realm.
 
I'm not saying Lyanna was fine with Robert having other women - she clearly was not - but that doesn't mean she didn't love him or wasn't attracted to him. She may have wanted even more from a man she intended to marry, and the idea that she saw that in Rhaegar isn't far-fetched. But that doesn't mean she did not love Robert, too, at least at one point, or that she wasn't attracted to him.
 
Ned's 'you didn't know her' is spoken at a later time, when he knew a lot more about Lyanna than he himself might have known previously. It is rather likely that Ned/Benjen were as much convinced of the rape/forced marriage idea Robert was or else the Starks wouldn't have supported Robert's Rebellion at all. They would have tried to contact Rhaegar to make a deal with him and get him to move against his father with their help.

Even Ned knew that lyanna run off happily and willingly, I think he still will rebell. To avenge his father and brother, and to save his own life and robert's life and also foster father' life.
I think even lyanna herself came back to winterfell during the war and declared they are lovers, nothing will change about the war.

[Alia of the knife]

On Lyanna and  Robert:

 

Because we know even less about Lyannas heart than Rhaegars, I have always thought it was odd the disappointment she seemed to feel over a would-be political union to a man she supposedly didn't know.

 

As a motherless daughter with only Nan, and who is surrounded by nothing but men, and who also seems close to Brandon, it would not be lost on her the behaviors of men. Even Cat, initially, was not put out by the notion that Ned might solace in another womans bed, so Lyannas speech to Ned sounds  a bit like disillusionment as well as disappointment, the very emotions that a person who had cared very much, might exhibit.

 

Why would it matter to Lyanna if she didn't care that Robert had fathered  a child, (which was very common in especially young noble boys usually with a servant of the household given proximity and burgeoning, adolecent desire), and was likely  to never keep to her bed alone if she didn't care?

 

I also agree that Robert was likely "star struck" or more in awe of Lyannas physical appearance thus missing, (or ignoring), all the dangers signs regarding her own strong personality that would be off-putting to him when he tried to dominate her.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

On Lyanna and  Robert:
 
Because we know even less about Lyannas heart than Rhaegars, I have always thought it was odd the disappointment she seemed to feel over a would-be political union to a man she supposedly didn't know.
 
As a motherless daughter with only Nan, and who is surrounded by nothing but men, and who also seems close to Brandon, it would not be lost on her the behaviors of men. Even Cat, initially, was not put out by the notion that Ned might solace in another womans bed, so Lyannas speech to Ned sounds  a bit like disillusionment as well as disappointment, the very emotions that a person who had cared very much, might exhibit.
 
Why would it matter to Lyanna if she didn't care that Robert had fathered  a child, (which was very common in especially young noble boys usually with a servant of the household given proximity and burgeoning, adolecent desire), and was likely  to never keep to her bed alone if she didn't care?

 
We don't know what Lyanna's attitude towards Brandon was. Maybe she heard about him having bastards he never cared for and she resented it/him.
 
Because it's bastards the problem Lyanna had about Robert's behaviour, not the whoring. And his indifference towards them. The conversation between her and Ned goes something like this:
 
"I heard he has a bastard".
"Yes, but as soon as he's married with you, it won't matter!"
 
That's HER problem. That neither Robert or Ned (and maybe even Brandon) mind bastards. And Robert's indifference towards them is a highlight of his whole personality: he gets excited by things one moment and the next one, he moves on to the next best thing. He will be married to her and then, get some random women pregnant, and he will forget about such kid. Rpea
 
That's why Ned also remembers that scene so sadly: because he was also part of the problem. He told her bastards were a thing to be forgotten, and now he's ended up raising one who was likely conceived out of love and not lust.

[UnViserion]

It is hypocritical of Lyanna to chastise Robert for hypothetically not staying to one bed, only to actually run off into the bed of a married man herself. I hope we are all in agreement about how effed up that is.

Just lovely.

[Alia of the knife]

 
We don't know what Lyanna's attitude towards Brandon was. Maybe she heard about him having bastards he never cared for and she resented it/him.
 
Because it's bastards the problem Lyanna had about Robert's behaviour, not the whoring. And his indifference towards them. The conversation between her and Ned goes something like this:
 
"I heard he has a bastard".
"Yes, but as soon as he's married with you, it won't matter!"
 
That's HER problem. That neither Robert or Ned (and maybe even Brandon) mind bastards. And Robert's indifference towards them is a highlight of his whole personality: he gets excited by things one moment and the next one, he moves on to the next best thing. He will be married to her and then, get some random women pregnant, and he will forget about such kid. Rpea
 
That's why Ned also remembers that scene so sadly: because he was also part of the problem. He told her bastards were a thing to be forgotten, and now he's ended up raising one who was likely conceived out of love and not lust.

Except she specifically speaks of Robert never keeping to one bed-hers.

[IceFire125]

I'm of the belief that Rhaegar slept with 2 women.  Elia and Lyanna.

 

Rhaegar shared a bed with Lyanna, none others, after Elia was pregnant and birthed Aegon.

 

Even if Lyanna's criticism of Robert was hypocritical, it holds true, Robert was whoring himself for years after marrying Cersei.

 

Not only that, save for a few, he didn't care what happened to them after they were born.  He even allowed Cersei to kill twins born to him by a woman, as it was a slight to the Lannisters that Robert was whoring at her Father's tourney.

 

So were Rhaegar and Lyanna perfect? saints? No, but I believe they grew to love each other in their intimate and short time together.  We will just have to wait until TWOW is released to find out more about what happen.

[Alia of the knife]

It is hypocritical of Lyanna to chastise Robert for hypothetically not staying to one bed, only to actually run off into the bed of a married man herself. I hope we are all in agreement about how effed up that is.

Just lovely.

The popular theory is that Lyanna would overlook Rhaegars marriage to Elia because it's a political union, and the only reason he was sleeping with her to begin with was to get an heir.
Now that she is rendered barren by Aegons birth, no need to share her bed.

[purple-eyes]

I'm of the belief that Rhaegar slept with 2 women.  Elia and Lyanna.

 

Rhaegar shared a bed with Lyanna, none others, after Elia was pregnant and birthed Aegon.

 

Even if Lyanna's criticism of Robert was hypocritical, it holds true, Robert was whoring himself for years after marrying Cersei.

 

Not only that, save for a few, he didn't care what happened to them after they were born.  He even allowed Cersei to kill twins born to him by a woman, as it was a slight to the Lannisters that Robert was whoring at her Father's tourney.

 

So were Rhaegar and Lyanna perfect? saints? No, but I believe they grew to love each other in their intimate and short time together.  We will just have to wait until TWOW is released to find out more about what happen.

 

Actually I have a little (and silly) question here, Rhaegar was 21 when he got married to Elia. 

As a crown prince, do you think he is (or he is allowed to be) a virgin until 21?

I mean Ned imagined rhaegar would not "frequented" brothel, not that he would not "visited" brothel. 

Somehow I doubt Rhaegar only had two women in his whole life of 24 years.

what is your opinion? 

[Mithras]

Actually I have a little (and silly) question here, Rhaegar was 21 when he got married to Elia. 

As a crown prince, do you think he is (or he is allowed to be) a virgin until 21?

I mean Ned imagined rhaegar would not "frequented" brothel, not that he would not "visited" brothel. 

Somehow I doubt Rhaegar only had two women in his whole life of 24 years.

what is your opinion? 

 

He must have read it in a book first.

[purple-eyes]

The popular theory is that Lyanna would overlook Rhaegars marriage to Elia because it's a political union, and the only reason he was sleeping with her to begin with was to get an heir.
Now that she is rendered barren by Aegons birth, no need to share her bed.

 

The way you are addressing this question is sort of annoying (to be honest).

So a political union can not have any affection and bonding even with two children?

How about Ned and Cat? how about Dany and Drogo?

So the wife can not have more children, then a husband has no need to share her bed?

How about the older couple in Westeros? They should stop sex right after the wife pass the age of having children? (remind you, most marriages in this book are political and arranged ones)

 

If you hold R and L's true love as such a "faithful and pure" thing, then rhaegar should immediately refuse sleeping with Elia after HH (since the popular theory is that they fell in love in HH). Because he is physically betraying his true love Lyanna by sleeping with Elia he did not love (by your opinion). therefore he is cheating and hurting Lyanna by sleeping with Elia. Is this your opinion?  

[Mithras]

how about Dany and Drogo?

 

That is terrible writing. George wants us to take that as a love story but it is anything but a love story.

[MtnLion]

 

Actually I have a little (and silly) question here, Rhaegar was 21 when he got married to Elia. 

As a crown prince, do you think he is (or he is allowed to be) a virgin until 21?

I mean Ned imagined rhaegar would not "frequented" brothel, not that he would not "visited" brothel. 

Somehow I doubt Rhaegar only had two women in his whole life of 24 years.

what is your opinion? 

Ned visited a brothel . . .  Does it mean that he availed himself of the services?  No.  The problem with Ned is that he was never the boy he was, according to Robert.  Ned looking favorably upon Rhaegar in comparison to Ned's best friend, Robert tells us a great deal.  Since it is a fictional character, it is up to GRRM to tell us the answer to your doubts, but I give Rhaegar credit, because Ned does.  ;)

[purple-eyes]

 

That is terrible writing. George wants us to take that as a love story but it is anything but a love story.

 

We are clearly told that he is her "sun and star". 

Even you reject to believe it, he is still telling us this is a love story. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm of the belief that Rhaegar slept with 2 women.  Elia and Lyanna.

 

Rhaegar shared a bed with Lyanna, none others, after Elia was pregnant and birthed Aegon.

 

Even if Lyanna's criticism of Robert was hypocritical, it holds true, Robert was whoring himself for years after marrying Cersei.

 

Not only that, save for a few, he didn't care what happened to them after they were born.  He even allowed Cersei to kill twins born to him by a woman, as it was a slight to the Lannisters that Robert was whoring at her Father's tourney.

 

So were Rhaegar and Lyanna perfect? saints? No, but I believe they grew to love each other in their intimate and short time together.  We will just have to wait until TWOW is released to find out more about what happen.

Did Robert allow it? We're not even told he knew of their existence, only that Littlefinger knew (since he tells the story0, that Cersei knew (since she ordered the hit), and that Varys might have known (they could have been 2 of the 8 Varys is aware of).

 

Robert can't react to something Cersei did, if he didn't know she did it. 

[Mithras]

We are clearly told that he is her "sun and star". 

Even you reject to believe it, he is still telling us this is a love story. 

 

Yes but he was her rapist first.

[purple-eyes]

Ned visited a brothel . . .  Does it mean that he availed himself of the services?  No.  The problem with Ned is that he was never the boy he was, according to Robert.  Ned looking favorably upon Rhaegar in comparison to Ned's best friend, Robert tells us a great deal.  Since it is a fictional character, it is up to GRRM to tell us the answer to your doubts, but I give Rhaegar credit, because Ned does.  ;)

 

I did not understand you. I did not ask anything about Ned's opinion about Rhaegar and Robert or whatever about Rhaegar's credit.

I am only asking do you think he has visited a brothel and/or slept with a woman besides Elia and Lyanna.

You answered me nothing about your opinion except that only GRRM can tell. 

So yes or no? (if you want to still answer this question)