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Robb should have already been betrothed


Canon Claude

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I understand that Ned wanted his kids to stay close to his side (given how his family members ended up, it's hardly surprising). But all the same, Ned is still the Lord of Winterfell. He knows that lords, especially north of the Neck, don't always have a long life to establish themselves.

And it's not like Robb was lacking options. Right off the top of my head (and even excluding the eldest daughters), he could have been betrothed to Wylla Manderly, half the Mormont girls, one of Greatjon's daughters, Meera Reed, even Jonelle Cerwyn or Beth Cassel. If Alys Karstark can be betrothed to Daryn Hornwood before she's flowered, then surely Robb, as the heir to Winterfell, had nothing holding him back from a betrothal of his own.

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If Lyanna really did elope with Rhaegar to avoid marrying Robert, it may have put Ned off of choosing who his children marry. An effort to avoid the mistakes of his generation, so to speak. Might have been a good idea to invite more 'visits' from suitable girls that Robb might have taken a shining to, though. If I'd have been Ned, I might have even extended an invite to Mace Tyrell and Margaery, hoping that the Stark name and heritage, combined with the fact that Ned is Robert's best bud, would win him over. Probably wouldn't have worked (Mace's ambitions and all) but I'd have tried.

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Of all the girls you named, only Wylla Manderly would be a match for Robb. Her family controls the largest city in the North. Meera is from the cronnagmen, which are looked down upon. Beth Cassel (and Jeyne Poole) are too far below Robb on the nobility that it would be an insult to the other big houses. The others might work but they don't have the economic might that the Manderly's have.

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6 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So should Edmure Tully. And Willas Tyrell. And Renly Baratheon. And Arianne Martell. All of them older (or much older) than Robb Stark, all of them not spoken for at the start of the series.

Well Arianne had a reasonable excuse, given that her father already promised her to Viserys in secret. And Renly clearly has no interest in marrying, and there's nobody who will force him to marry, since neither Stannis or Robert care.

But I agree about the others. I'm surprised that Willas is allowed to stay a bachelor while Garlan is already married. And given how Hoster didn't stop arguing with his brother for years because Brynden didn't marry, I'm shocked that Edmure isn't already married with kids. The thing is that Edmure and Robb were only single because of plot, regardless of whether it makes sense within the story. Edmure being allowed to swan around the Riverlands without needing to commit to anyone, but the Blackfish is blacklisted for life?

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8 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Well Arianne had a reasonable excuse, given that her father already promised her to Viserys in secret. And Renly clearly has no interest in marrying, and there's nobody who will force him to marry, since neither Stannis or Robert care.

But I agree about the others. I'm surprised that Willas is allowed to stay a bachelor while Garlan is already married. And given how Hoster didn't stop arguing with his brother for years because Brynden didn't marry, I'm shocked that Edmure isn't already married with kids. The thing is that Edmure and Robb were only single because of plot, regardless of whether it makes sense within the story. Edmure being allowed to swan around the Riverlands without needing to commit to anyone, but the Blackfish is blacklisted for life?

Perhaps that's why Edmure is allowed to swan around? Hoster had already alienated Lysa and Brynden with his marriage expectations. Perhaps he didn't want to alienate his only son and heir. Although he did invite Arianne Martell, presumably to marry Edmure (a wedding they both probably would have been happy enough with).

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Ned wasn't an ambitious man to care for alliances through marriage.He probably thought it was too early for Robb to marry. He also didn't expect that a war would happen or that he would die young. Perhaps he would propose a Northener bride (a Manderly, a Mormont or an Umber) but  Lewin or Catelyn would propose a southern bride (a Royce, a Bracken, a Blackwood).

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14 minutes ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Perhaps he would propose a Northener bride (a Manderly, a Mormont or an Umber) but  Lewin or Catelyn would propose a southern bride (a Royce, a Bracken, a Blackwood).

We'll never know, but this may have been why Robb wasn't promised. Cat and Lewin had Southern plans while Ned wanted Northern spouses for his kids. There may have been friction and Ned decided to drop it until later. We do know that Alys was brought to Winterfell to see if a match would happen and that fell through for some reason. As I said...we'll never know the truth of it, but I do think that Cat may have been pulling in one direction and Ned in the other.

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13 minutes ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

We'll never know, but this may have been why Robb wasn't promised. Cat and Lewin had Southern plans while Ned wanted Northern spouses for his kids. There may have been friction and Ned decided to drop it until later. We do know that Alys was brought to Winterfell to see if a match would happen and that fell through for some reason. As I said...we'll never know the truth of it, but I do think that Cat may have been pulling in one direction and Ned in the other.

A good compromise between them would be marrying Robb to Bethany Blackwood.

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Ah, good points all and very interesting discussion @Canon Claude.   Robb was 15 and Jon was 14, right?  Correct me where needed.   Sansa was 12.    Seems to me all 3 of them should have at least been of interest to Ned in the Betrothal Game.   Ned seems quite stunned by Robert's offer of Joffrey (also 12 at the time or was he older since he sparred with Robb?) to Sansa.  We all read the series and nuances therein differently and I read Game with the express understanding that Ned only continued to King's Landing after Bran's fall because of Sansa's betrothal.  I understand Ned's taking Arya along.   I think he wanted to expose her to the life she was meant to have as a daughter of a high lord, but Bran???  It's not like Bran (had there been no fall) would not have had many opportunities to attain knighthood right there in the North.   So I'm thinking exposure to the Southron way and court had to be the prime motive.  

Alys Karstark was taken to meet Robb when she was only 6.  Certainly the Northern lords considered Robb a fine catch.  Conversely, I saw Oberyn and Elia courting houses for marriage outside of Dorne, but not Arienne or Quentyn.  Perhaps these far reaching areas preferred to marry their children in region because of the consequences befallen by Uncle Brandon and Auntie Elia?   Though like Doran, I've wondered if Ned didn't have some other plan up his sleeve for Robb as he told Jon specifically they would speak of his mother next time they met.   Is it possible that Ned had a rebellion or exile in mind?  Surely Ned would have had some plan for Jon, bastard or no.  (It may have well been the NW to protect him, but Ned didn't strike me as a force the kids into anything sort of dad or lord.)

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah, good points all and very interesting discussion @Canon Claude.   Robb was 15 and Jon was 14, right?  Correct me where needed.   Sansa was 12.    Seems to me all 3 of them should have at least been of interest to Ned in the Betrothal Game.   Ned seems quite stunned by Robert's offer of Joffrey (also 12 at the time or was he older since he sparred with Robb?) to Sansa.  We all read the series and nuances therein differently and I read Game with the express understanding that Ned only continued to King's Landing after Bran's fall because of Sansa's betrothal.  I understand Ned's taking Arya along.   I think he wanted to expose her to the life she was meant to have as a daughter of a high lord, but Bran???  It's not like Bran (had there been no fall) would not have had many opportunities to attain knighthood right there in the North.   So I'm thinking exposure to the Southron way and court had to be the prime motive.  

Alys Karstark was taken to meet Robb when she was only 6.  Certainly the Northern lords considered Robb a fine catch.  Conversely, I saw Oberyn and Elia courting houses for marriage outside of Dorne, but not Arienne or Quentyn.  Perhaps these far reaching areas preferred to marry their children in region because of the consequences befallen by Uncle Brandon and Auntie Elia?   Though like Doran, I've wondered if Ned didn't have some other plan up his sleeve for Robb as he told Jon specifically they would speak of his mother next time they met.   Is it possible that Ned had a rebellion or exile in mind?  Surely Ned would have had some plan for Jon, bastard or no.  (It may have well been the NW to protect him, but Ned didn't strike me as a force the kids into anything sort of dad or lord.)

Robb and Jon are the same age so both 14 and Sansa was 11. 

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OP: Robb was only 15, so it's not too young to not have a match. We have to bear in mind that those super-young betrothals and marriages were uncommon.

14 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

And given how Hoster didn't stop arguing with his brother for years because Brynden didn't marry, I'm shocked that Edmure isn't already married with kids. The thing is that Edmure and Robb were only single because of plot, regardless of whether it makes sense within the story. Edmure being allowed to swan around the Riverlands without needing to commit to anyone, but the Blackfish is blacklisted for life?

How long had Hoster been too ill to rule? I got the impression that Edmure had been de-facto Lord of Riverrun for quite some time, in which case his dad can't force him to do anything. (Also, Edmure may be impotent.)

13 hours ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

...we'll never know the truth of it, but I do think that Cat may have been pulling in one direction and Ned in the other.

I don't know, neither Cat nor Ned ever think of this.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Conversely, I saw Oberyn and Elia courting houses for marriage outside of Dorne, but not Arienne or Quentyn.  Perhaps these far reaching areas preferred to marry their children in region because of the consequences befallen by Uncle Brandon and Auntie Elia?

It seems like every big family was making political marriages during Aerys's reign; clearly, there's more to learn. Doran seems to have his own plans that require keeping his kids free.

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I think the reasons why people weren’t being betrothed were various


a-    It was a time of peace. There was no hurry to seal alliance 
b-    Robert’s dynasty was a young and therefore fragile one. The fact that a Lord Paramount had died after asking too many questions is concerning. Especially since his only heir happened to have blood ties with half of the most powerful families in Westeros. Things could change very badly and very quickly, with allies becoming enemies and viceversa. Opportunities cropping up that could be seized with marriages
c-    Tywin was in no hurry to appoint his heir. That decision alone was bound to change the entire diplomatic landscape. If Tywin convinced Robert to let Jamie leave the KG, then Jamie would have become one of the most sought bachelors in the kingdom. Considering that Joffrey was promised to Sansa, than Mace would probably be interested in him marrying Margaery to Jamie which would have consolidated the alliance between the two richest regions and indirectly between the Reach and the crown (Jamie was the King’s Uncle). Robert who was heavily indebted with the Westerlands would probably offer him Myrcella and if Eddard was wise enough (he wasn’t), then he should have considered a matchup between Jamie and Arya. On the other hand if Tywin chose Tommen, then the royal family stocks would soar to ridiculous levels. The royal family would be the ruling family, the owners of the richest region in all Westeros and would be married/related to people who are related to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, North, Vale and Riverlands. Robert’s negotiating hand will be much stronger on that regard.
d-    Another influential person in Westeros was taking it easily ie Eddard. Ned was Lord Paramount of the North and the hand of the king. His wife shared blood ties to both the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the Lord Paramount of the Vale, while his daughter was going to marry the crown prince.  We can safely say that at that point, Ned was possibly the joint second most powerful person in Westeros, (alongside Tywin). His children would have been sought off by all Westeros. I suspect that, that was the reason why Ned took Arya to KL.

I suspect that everyone was waiting for the dust to settle with Tywin being the triggering point (assuming the Lannister ‘little secret’ remains safe). Once Tywin announced his heir, someone would propose a marriage between that heir and his daughter and an auction would start.
 

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16 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Ned wasn't an ambitious man to care for alliances through marriage.He probably thought it was too early for Robb to marry. He also didn't expect that a war would happen or that he would die young. Perhaps he would propose a Northener bride (a Manderly, a Mormont or an Umber) but  Lewin or Catelyn would propose a southern bride (a Royce, a Bracken, a Blackwood).

This is the same man who married his older brother's fiancee to cement an alliance in time of war and betrothed his daughter to a prince of the realm, to bind his family to the king and his best friend. The same Ned whose son agreed to marry a Frey and arranged for his sister to marry a Frey to cross a bridge? Robb framed literally everything he did in the Wo5K on what his father would do.

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My take about the lack of marriages for Westeros' best grooms is that their families were playing a waiting game: Sansa, Arianne, Margaery, a lot of regional candidate are unmarried too.
Maybe people in this culture and generation are going to keep their chances open until a dire need arises.

If this was a Crusader Kings style game I would probably have tried to start building alliances in peace time, to be fair, just to get prepared.
If Robb was already bethroated (or even married!) when his army got to the Twins Walder Frey could only have asked to ward and marry Rickon to a girl of his, in addition to Arya, sparing a lot of trouble down the road.
If Sansa had also been bethroated to Theon before the start of the series, a lot of trouble would have been spared to the North.

The only advantage waiting is to (still) have a shot at the best ones: Jeoffrey, Edmure, Renly even just as Lord of Storm's End, Robb and the girls above.

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2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

This is the same man who married his older brother's fiancee to cement an alliance in time of war and betrothed his daughter to a prince of the realm, to bind his family to the king and his best friend. The same Ned whose son agreed to marry a Frey and arranged for his sister to marry a Frey to cross a bridge? Robb framed literally everything he did in the Wo5K on what his father would do.

He did that because Hoster would probably not commit his troops to the case without having his two girls married to  Lord Paramount. Ned would probably marry Robert if that secured Lyanna's return. 

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