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Iron Fist [SPOILERS - after page 3]


RedEyedGhost

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Okay, I saw all the eps, finally. I'll sum up what I thought of the series, then put the rest in spoilers just to be careful. Definitely the worst of the Marvel Netflix series. I haven't changed my opinion that the reviewers way overdid it in mauling the series. However, Iron Fist did the traditional Marvel Netflix thing of falling apart at the end. This would be less of a problem if it had ever achieved greatness, which is also a traditional thing with Marvel Netflix, but it never once achieved that. 

Luke Cage, which was likely the second worst Marvel Netflix series, did achieve greatness in those first 7 eps. And because of that it allowed to love the entire season because I just plowed through riding high on the first half. Iron Fist was quite watchable and entertaining to me. But it had no single great episode and only a couple of very good eps. (6 and 8) And some bad ones really at the end, in particular 13 was bad and a complete waste of time.

So, why was Iron Fist a failure, overall? I actually liked Jones as Iron Fist and I don't think that was the problem.

Spoiler

 

1. Biggest problem was the main story line wasn't that compelling. And it's directly related to the villains not being compelling. Madame Gao is awesome, but one, she's not quite as compelling as Kingpin and Kilgrave. And two, she was horribly wasted in this series. She was literally left in a room! One wonders if she is still in there. The switching villain was a problem. Harold was a great character, but not enough to anchor the series. And Bakuto was merely okay.

They should have used Madame Gao much more. Either that, or they should have had Steel Serpent. I'm not sure why they didn't, since lack of one great villain is the single thing that kinda sunk this series. The Kingpin, Punisher, and Kilgrave are a big part of what made DD and JJ great series. Same with Cottonmouth and Luke Cage.

2. Stinginess with the action and mysticism, which were the elements that made eps 6 and 8 very good episodes. They did make an attempt in ep 12 to cut loose with the action, but it didn't quite work for some reason. It failed in execution. 

3. Stinginess with showing K'un-Lun. And one thing that really pissed me off, not showing the fracking dragon! Really, show us the eyes only? It's great that there is a Dragon in the MCU, but I wish they had shown it. It feels like they were holding a lot back for future seasons, which is kinda dumb when you are trying to establish yourself.

4. The Meachum story line and characters were some of the best parts of the show. It's what made so many episodes watchable and entertaining, I believe. However, that in its self becomes a problem, since it outshines the main Iron Fist story line. And using Harold as the final boss did not work at all. It felt added on and a waste of time of an ep.

5. Eps 12 and 13 were the only eps that did not work for me at all. 13 in particular was very bad. 12 just kinda failed in execution of the action.

6. Moves kind of slow, in particular at the start. Takes a lot of patience.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Okay, I saw all the eps, finally. I'll sum up what I thought of the series, then put the rest in spoilers just to be careful. Definitely the worst of the Marvel Netflix series. I haven't changed my opinion that the reviewers way overdid it in mauling the series. However, Iron Fist did the traditional Marvel Netflix thing if falling apart at the end. This would be less of a problem if it had ever achieved greatness, which is also a traditional thing with Marvel Netflix, but it never once achieved that. 

Luke Cage, which was likely the second worst Marvel Netflix series, did achieve greatness in those first 7 eps. And because of that it allowed to love the entire season because I just plowed through riding high on the first half. Iron Fist was quite watchable and entertaining to me. But it had no single great episode and only a couple of very good eps. (6 and 8) And some bad ones really at the end, in particular 13 was bad and a complete waste of time.

So, why was Iron Fist a failure, overall? I actually liked Jones as Iron Fist and I don't think that was the problem.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1. Biggest problem was the main story line wasn't that compelling. And it's directly related to the villains not being compelling. Madame Gao is awesome, but one, she's not quite as compelling as Kingpin and Kilgrave. And two, she was horribly wasted in this series. She was literally left in a room! One wonders if she is still in there. The switching villain was a problem. Harold was a great character, but not enough to anchor the series. And Bakuto was merely okay.

They should have used Madame Gao much more. Either that, or they should have had Steel Serpent. I'm not sure why they didn't, since lack of one great villain is the single thing that kinda sunk this series. The Kingpin, Punisher, and Kilgrave are a big part of what made DD and JJ great series. Same with Cottonmouth and Luke Cage.

2. Stinginess with the action and mysticism, which were the elements that made eps 6 and 8 very good episodes. They did make an attempt in ep 12 to cut loose with the action, but it didn't quite work for some reason. It failed in execution. 

3. Stinginess with showing K'un-Lun. And one thing that really pissed me off, not showing the fracking dragon! Really, show us the eyes only? It's great that there is a Dragon in the MCU, but I wish they had shown it. It feels like they were holding a lot back for future seasons, which is kinda dumb when you are trying to establish yourself.

4. The Meachum story line and characters were some of the best parts of the show. It's what made so many episodes watchable and entertaining, I believe. However, that in its self becomes a problem, since it outshines the main Iron Fist story line. And using Harold as the final boss did not work at all. It felt added on and a waste of time of an ep.

5. Eps 12 and 13 were the only eps that did not work for me at all. 13 in particular was very bad. 12 just kinda failed in execution of the action.

6. Moves kind of slow, in particular at the start. Takes a lot of patience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

6 and 8 were my favorite as well, and I mostly agree with your review, though I barely cared for Ward at all. His story took too much space. 

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14 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

6 and 8 were my favorite as well, and I mostly agree with your review, though I barely cared for Ward at all. His story took too much space. 

8 was my favorite mostly because of the drunken Lewis Tan. Most entertaining moment of the show. Reminded me of Jackie Chan in Drunken Master.

6 was mediocre even with Rza directing. The tournament made no sense, the fights were mediocre and the spider woman was some of the worst bit of writing in the entire show. But at least something happened.

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17 minutes ago, red snow said:

Marvel being racist seems too far of an accusation while I think it's fair they are maybe guilty of unconscious bias (which you'd hope big studios would be aware of) and/or being lazy in terms of not thinking outside the box. Danny Rand as an american of Asian descent was a missed opportunity but I don't think the show creators made the choice maliciously - they just went on autopilot. But I suspect a lot of people upset with the casting aren't assuming that Marvel's TV wing is inherently racist.

It doesn't diminish other people's strong feelings but I'd be interested in seeing how many (or the proportion) of people upset by the Danny Rand casting are people of Asian descent.

 

I don't know how many people actually believe Marvel to be racist but I would guess its only the most ludicrously rabid of commentators suggesting it. Most of the decisions I see them making seem to heavily take into account race and seem to doing things in order to not court controversy. On the whole they are pretty inclusive in all their decisions. Again, there would have been just as much, if not more controversy had they made Danny Rand Asian. Maybe if the show had been better we could have mitigated a lot of the uproar. 

Hard to know who those who write articles are, I've seen some asian guys on youtube discussing Iron Fist and none of them seem to have any sort of issue with Danny Rand being white, instead they thought it was a stupid thing to worry about. 

I haven't seen many people thinking its anything to do with a conspiracy against Marvel tbh. Mostly its anger at a perceived over reaction, and an agenda to play race politics in as many situations as possible. I think there is some truth in that, its all about being as clickbaitey as possible these days. 

 

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11 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

But it was Arrow that copied it from Iron Fist, not the other way around.

Doesn't matter; Arrow's been out for a while and most people are familiar with it. Iron Fist being the 'original' doesn't make the story any fresher or more interesting. 

6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I would have preferred if it was even closer to Arrow, but without Arrow's campiness. One recurring theme, though maybe not so much with Jessica Jones, is related to the environment. The situation in Hell's Kitchen, and DD's constant struggle to keep it safe, because the city is part of him. The situation in Harlem, where its history and legacies also play a part in the story. Knowing almost nothing about the Iron Fist, other than that he was a billionaire's son in New York, I expected a similar approach where the Iron Fist takes a role in protecting the city, or at least his corner of the city, but instead it was just Rand that the story focused on.

I think focusing on Rand would be fine if Finn Jones is a more interesting actor. Focusing on Luke was fine, as an example. Focusing on Jessica was fine too. A lot of the same structural failings are in the other shows (and in most shows in general), but they're glossed over because other parts are compelling or cool. When those are lacking, you start looking at all the other bad bits too. 

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Yeah, 6 was a big letdown considering how much praise it got in here, and the spider woman scene was just terrible. Colleen is IMO also a bit overrated...her acting is ok, but the character as written kinda veers all over the place, for example her conflict over fight for pay doesn't seem to fit into her Hand/cult storyline, and just gets dropped w/o explanation. Harold and Ward both have good and bad moments, but I'll say that their sudden direction changes can at least be attributed to in-story motivations. Joy is maybe the most believable performer, but let down by the writers.

In general the writing has some inspired ideas, like showing the Hand from a kind of collegiate inside POV, or exploring Danny's training as abuse, and Harold's cynical manipulation of his children. But these are almost invariably undermined by poor execution. 

Maybe the most interesting aspect is the inclusion of Rosario Dawson's character as she often articulates my own objections to the narrative choices, either by word or by 'are you serious?' facial reactions. It's as though she's a protest piece written into the script. 

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I made my thoughts known in the watch, watched, watching thread.. and they seem to be in-line with most other people's thoughts. Short story: I didn't like it and found it mostly unmemorable, gave it a 1 star rating in Netflix and wish I could get back the weekend time I spent watching it. It will take heavy convincing and a lot of free time to get me to watch a second season.

That said, what is the spider woman scene everyone is talking about? Did I sleep through that part?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

I made my thoughts known in the watch, watched, watching thread.. and they seem to be in-line with most other people's thoughts. Short story: I didn't like it and found it mostly unmemorable, gave it a 1 star rating in Netflix and wish I could get back the weekend time I spent watching it. It will take heavy convincing and a lot of free time to get me to watch a second season.

That said, what is the spider woman scene everyone is talking about? Did I sleep through that part?

 

 

I'm tempted to leave your memory undisturbed, but 

The second of the 3-part 'tournament' in episode 6, ie the seduction-poison one. Something a 12-year old might have written.

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3 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I'm tempted to leave your memory undisturbed, but 

The second of the 3-part 'tournament' in episode 6, ie the seduction-poison one. Something a 12-year old might have written.

You say 12-year old, but doesn't that feel like something you would find in a superhero comic book? I don't know if that character exists in the comic books, but it certainly seemed that she was drawn from the pages of a comic.

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5 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

You say 12-year old, but doesn't that feel like something you would find in a superhero comic book? I don't know if that character exists in the comic books, but it certainly seemed that she was drawn from the pages of a comic.

I want to say you're wrong, but then I remember the costumes/build of most female comic heroes/villains and I suspect you might be right. Still, I would hope tv writers would not feel anchored by that kind of limitation. 

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35 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 A lot of the same structural failings are in the other shows (and in most shows in general), but they're glossed over because other parts are compelling or cool. When those are lacking, you start looking at all the other bad bits too. 

Very true.

46 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I don't know how many people actually believe Marvel to be racist but I would guess its only the most ludicrously rabid of commentators suggesting it. Most of the decisions I see them making seem to heavily take into account race and seem to doing things in order to not court controversy. On the whole they are pretty inclusive in all their decisions. Again, there would have been just as much, if not more controversy had they made Danny Rand Asian. Maybe if the show had been better we could have mitigated a lot of the uproar. 

 
I haven't seen many people thinking its anything to do with a conspiracy against Marvel tbh. Mostly its anger at a perceived over reaction, and an agenda to play race politics in as many situations as possible. I think there is some truth in that, its all about being as clickbaitey as possible these days. 

 

I'd say the Marvel films do make a concerted effort to show things on a world scale at least. Gone are the days only New York/Washington or LA/SF are the sole locations most of the marvel films have a Willy Fogg aspect to them racing around making sure as many of their core overseas audience get to see a location from their own country. They are still tip-toeing wrt having prominent characters of diverse ethnic groups. But let's face it, we're still waiting for the first female lead film to appear a dozen plus films in. They are conervative in terms of thinking this is playing it safe. Although I wonder how much of the perceived risk of such films is down to the majority of producers putting down the money being predominantly white men?

We have to keep in mind Marvel film and TV are now run separately as well and the guy who has the final say in the TV deparment (Ike Perlmutter) is someone who according to wikipedia " alleged controversial comments and actions by Perlmutter, such as replacing the casting of Terence Howard as James Rhodes with Don Cheadle because black people "look the same."

The bolded bit is sad but true. The clickbait, stir, fuel, stir, backlash cycle is a horrible thing as it usually feels like all it achieves is solidifying polarisation. There's no real discussion.

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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Colleen is IMO also a bit overrated...her acting is ok, but the character as written kinda veers all over the place, for example her conflict over fight for pay doesn't seem to fit into her Hand/cult storyline, and just gets dropped w/o explanation.

This is a bit confusing, because at first it seems she's fighting for the money, but then it's presented as actually being about a need for thrills and action, which explains why she agrees to help Danny... until the shitty revelation that she's been in the Hand all along, when that explanation retrospectively makes no sense any more, and neither does the financial one.

I really could go on for hours about how bad that twist is and how it screws Colleen's character up completely.

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Maybe the most interesting aspect is the inclusion of Rosario Dawson's character as she often articulates my own objections to the narrative choices, either by word or by 'are you serious?' facial reactions. It's as though she's a protest piece written into the script. 

I do love that about her. Jeri gets similar moments. They get even more impact because these two actresses are clearly the best on screen and have been in much better Marvel series.

1 hour ago, Martell Spy said:
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1. Biggest problem was the main story line wasn't that compelling. And it's directly related to the villains not being compelling. Madame Gao is awesome, but one, she's not quite as compelling as Kingpin and Kilgrave. And two, she was horribly wasted in this series. She was literally left in a room! One wonders if she is still in there. The switching villain was a problem. Harold was a great character, but not enough to anchor the series. And Bakuto was merely okay.

They should have used Madame Gao much more. Either that, or they should have had Steel Serpent. I'm not sure why they didn't, since lack of one great villain is the single thing that kinda sunk this series. The Kingpin, Punisher, and Kilgrave are a big part of what made DD and JJ great series. Same with Cottonmouth and Luke Cage.

 

DD S2 has a similar problem, though: there are too many antagonists (the Punisher at first, then the Hand and the Blacksmith, plus Kingpin and even Stick at times). The problem here is that Bakuto is introduced late, gets very little character work before he does a heel turn and then gets defeated in fairly short order. That, plus the final fight being Harold, as you point out. That might work thematically if you're trying to make it a father-son thing but he doesn't measure up as a threat.

25 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

You say 12-year old, but doesn't that feel like something you would find in a superhero comic book? I don't know if that character exists in the comic books, but it certainly seemed that she was drawn from the pages of a comic.

http://marvel.com/universe/Bride_of_Nine_Spiders_(Immortal_Weapons)

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

A lot of the same structural failings are in the other shows (and in most shows in general), but they're glossed over because other parts are compelling or cool. When those are lacking, you start looking at all the other bad bits too. 

I totally agree. Each of Marvel/Netflix shows has some bad bits but there is always something better that keeps your mind focused. Whether it is amazingly choreographed, one-shot fight scene in Daredevil, acting in JJ and LC, music, etc. there is always something else. Here, there is nothing.

Also, I think that this show, as the last one before The Defenders utterly failed as being the lead in. I feel as if we are going to spend half the season of The Defenders in them meeting, getting to know each other, sorting out possible issues etc. And it can be a drag, to be honest.

As for characterization, at one moment I thought Danny left Kun Lun because he was bored. Simply, it was all over the place. For a second, I thought that Hand will be humanized and then, bam, back to being evil ninjas again.

DD had issues with balancing the storyline of character doing two things, but here is it a plain mess. Not only that it is repetitive, it is borderline idiotic that someone who wanted to be Danny Rand suddenly dropped huge part of it.

Simply, now that I am done, I can't even put together one so to say cool episode. A lot of things that irk me.

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Another large failure here is that instead of taking the excellent progressive momentum that Jessica Jones and Luke Cage fostered in their stories - making them unusual in both their stories and who was telling them - we get an entirely dull, basic storyline that can't even be explained via artistic choice. 

As an example, if following the JJ/LC idea they decided to make Iron Fist entirely run by Asian talent (JJ is going to be entirely written and directed by women, LC entirely by African Americans) much of the white savior bullshit would likely be either ignored or explained as a deliberate choice. You could focus on how Danny Rand is a typical white man who thinks he can solve everything and knows better than the ignorant savages and how completely wrong he is about it. Make it a story about how much power he actually does have and how little wisdom he has to use it. From what I've read of it, this is something of where I think they were going with it - Rand constantly failing, looking bad, the ending of Kun Lun as a giant crater, people constantly telling him he's the worst Iron Fist ever, his business in shambles, etc - but the execution was poor and the acting was meh, and they kept going into shitty other stereotypes and pastiches to back things up here and there. 

The first season ends with him realizing that he may have the power, but not the wisdom to use it or to deal with others, and this leads into the Defenders - him seeking out others who can teach him the soft skills he is lacking. 

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As for the Asian aspect, I am not sure that's a criticism I can get behind. The story might allow for an Asian lead and it would have been an interesting choice, but I don't think it's a failure simply by omission. 

Another dissapointing aspect is that as I now read about the show, it appears many involved are busy pointing fingers at everyone but themselves. If there's a second season, it will be a very interesting setmosphere.

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What if the show had embraced the white privilege aspect and made Danny the Iron Fist not because he earned it, but that he literally appropriated it?  Didn't even spend 15 years there, just walked in one day and thought he could do a better job having it than anybody else, then cheated his way to defeating the dragon?  Then we find out the elders had been replaced by people loyal to Danny's father, so the people of K'un Lun are being oppressed by an occupying cabal from the Hand, orchestrated from America, and they had arranged it so Danny was given the power of the Iron Fist.  How do you actually tell a story of Danny realizing his privilege and reacting to it?  How does he become a hero?

 

By the way, having watched the series I still don't get what the explanation was for Danny abandoning his post guarding the gates of K'un Lun.  That was not given a good enough answer, and Danny never really behaved like he wasn't suppose to be there in NY.

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29 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

By the way, having watched the series I still don't get what the explanation was for Danny abandoning his post guarding the gates of K'un Lun.  That was not given a good enough answer, and Danny never really behaved like he wasn't suppose to be there in NY.

I swear at some point I thought he was just bored watching the gate no one seems to attack.

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38 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

By the way, having watched the series I still don't get what the explanation was for Danny abandoning his post guarding the gates of K'un Lun.  That was not given a good enough answer, and Danny never really behaved like he wasn't suppose to be there in NY.

He saw the eagle, and interpreted it as a sign that he needed to leave to get answers to the questions that have been nagging him for 15 years. :dunno: The thing is, Danny always wanted to leave, but couldn't until the way opened, and by then he had become the Iron Fist, so he made a half-assed attempt at doing his duty. The bigger question, why was he chosen to go the cave and gain the power of the Iron Fist? The series is filled with moments when he lacks the discipline that a shaolin-like monk, that was trained for 15 years, should have, so how did his teacher made such an enormous error to allow him to go to the cave? I suppose Danny's troubled heart was a better choice than Davos's jealous heart, but were there no other options? 

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Also, the show seems overpopulated by special-force types who prefer to use their guns as clubs for w/e reason. I'd maybe say they have orders to take IF alive, but they seem to have no reservations when it comes to blades.

edit: I'd also complain about the fact that almost every fight involving a blade is resolved via rotation fracture, but that's certainly not unique to this show. 

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17 hours ago, mormont said:

Why would you lose that?

Unless you have a second generation Asian-American that goes back to Asia, gets orphaned, and spends over half his life in K'un Lun, then comes back to America, I'm not sure how you emphasize the K'un Lun connection. You could do it, it's not any more contrived than the Iron Fist backstory as it stands, but it undermines the "-American" connection. I'd rather just see an immigrant/first generation narrative.

6 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

What if the show had embraced the white privilege aspect and made Danny the Iron Fist not because he earned it, but that he literally appropriated it?

I don't remember the details, but was there a comic storyline where Danny was chosen over Davos because the Iron Fist is destined to die young, so the outsider was selected as a throwaway? I do know there's some storyline where a Rand ancestor made the Rand fortune off K'un Lun somehow. Been a few years though.

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