manchester_babe

Is R+L=J canon in the books?

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I know the books are so....different but is R+L=J canon? I worded this wrong. Is it possible in the books?

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It's absolutely possible. It hasn't been stated in the books but there are many hints toward it. You must be new? If you use the search feature you will find a crap ton about it. 

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as Lyanna<3Rhaegar says, the books haven't confirmed it yet, just dropped a whole lot of hints. The best place to start if you're looking for those hints is probably the running R+L=J thread here, currently on its 164th incarnation. The first post in each incarnation is a "reference guide" with links and a FAQ.

15 minutes ago, manchester_babe said:

I know the books are so....different

We're really not supposed to be talking about the show at all here, so this may belong on the show forums instead. Or it may be better to just reword your post so it doesn't imply a show spoiler. But meanwhile, let me just mention, in general terms, that this probably isn't one of the ways the books are different, based on the fact that the first question GRRM asked D&D when he met with them was who Jon's mother is, and they got it right…

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Depends on who you ask ;)

Personally I would say yes BUT it hasn't technically been confirmed yet so there are still other theories floating around and its hard to completely rule out some kind of plot twist from George, knowing his signature style. 

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As said, it's not exactly confirmed, but there's a huge number of little clues scattered throughout, as well as major themes that line up with it. What it comes down to, to me anyway, is that the whole mystery of Jon's parentage and his existence as a character just don't make sense unless there's something very special about him. Considering how heavily Rhaegar and Lyanna weigh in Ned's inner thoughts, it's hard to believe that they don't all connect to the story in a very concrete way.

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5 hours ago, manchester_babe said:

1 - but is R+L=J canon?

2 - Is it possible in the books?

1 - no

2 - yes

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8 hours ago, manchester_babe said:

I know the books are so....different but is R+L=J canon? I worded this wrong. Is it possible in the books?

Possible ? yes. Likely ? Maybe. Depends who you ask. Will the meaning be the same ? No. 

Book Jon can even end up like his book counterpart Lady Stoneheart. The show simply cut so many characters that it is unknown if they merged Jon with other characters. And that includes the Dany love triangle. 

Edited by SirArthur

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Not only is it possible, it is by far the most likely answer to Jon's parentage. None of the other alternatives presented over the many years even come close to standing up to R+L=J.

And R+L=J is canon, just not in the books....yet. ;)

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No it isn't canon. As for Robert's bastards, neither Barra nor Bella have blue eyes. 

Quote

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …"
 
"She does." Eddard Stark had touched the baby's fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert's firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall.

Nothing about the eyes.  She has Roberts hair and his nose.  Ned comments on the hair only.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya V
"Well, I might be." When the girl shrugged, her gown slipped off one shoulder. "They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn't have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best."
The girl did have hair like the old king's, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn't mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair.


The only similarity that Arya sees between Bella and Gendry is black hair.  Bella doesn't have blue eyes.   Robert acknowledges Barra, so I see no reason not to accept Bella's story about her mother as well.

This also puts me in mind of the show.  Kit was asked to dye his hair black for some reason.  When Ned looks at the book of lineages, he only says black of hair (doesn't include blue eyes).  So I wonder if they were anticipating a reveal with WoW but the book never materialized and went with the fan favorite instead.

RLJ might still be true but it might not be Rhaegar.


 

 


 

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This is cannon...

Quote

"What do you say, Ned? Just you and me, two vagabond knights on the kingsroad, our swords at our sides and the gods know what in front of us, and maybe a farmer's daughter or a tavern wench to warm our beds tonight."

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege . . . to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were."

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . "

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil."

Eddard II, Game 12

This is theory...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/146027-rlj-v164/&page=1

This is a thread for small questions about the books...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137792-small-questions-v-10105/&page=1

 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Nothing about the eyes.  She has Roberts hair and his nose.  Ned comments on the hair only.

Well, if nothing is said about the eyes, how can you conclude that Bella and Barra did NOT have blue eyes? Given that Bella had "light red hair", it would seem blue eyes would be highly likely. With Barra as her and Robert's offspring, ditto.

That Arya compares Gendry's hair and Barra's is part of the humor. Both Barra and Gendry were Robert "by-blows." At this point, none of them know it yet. Much later (many books), when Brienne starts to tell Gendry, she's interrupted and has to fight for her life. Similarly, Ned Stark tells Jon he'll tell him everything about his mother - when he returns from King's Landing. That didn't work out so well, either.

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3 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, if nothing is said about the eyes, how can you conclude that Bella and Barra did NOT have blue eyes? Given that Bella had "light red hair", it would seem blue eyes would be highly likely. With Barra as her and Robert's offspring, ditto.

That Arya compares Gendry's hair and Barra's is part of the humor. Both Barra and Gendry were Robert "by-blows." At this point, none of them know it yet. Much later (many books), when Brienne starts to tell Gendry, she's interrupted and has to fight for her life. Similarly, Ned Stark tells Jon he'll tell him everything about his mother - when he returns from King's Landing. That didn't work out so well, either.

The point is that not all of Robert's bastards have blue eyes.  So the notion that Robert has 16 bastards all of whom must have the magical gene that produces only black haired blue-eyed bastards is wrong. Arya, who is comparing Bella with Gendry and who has seen Robert; says that the only thing they have in common is Robert's hair.  Ned also only notes that Barra has Robert's hair and Robert acknowledges that Barra is his bastard.  What of Varys who says that he knows of 8 bastards while only seven have been revealed in the books so far.  So who is the unknown bastard?  It looks to me like Jon is Robert's bastard.  There is a stronger case to be made for Robert than there is for Rhaegar.

People often cite the clues.  What clues?  Would you know a clue if you saw one?  Here's a clue, one that reader's wouldn't be aware of on a first read.

There is an odd discrepancy between Catelyn 1.3 and Eddard 1.4 in Got.  In 1.3 Ned tells Cat that he is looking forward to seeing Robert's youngest who was five the last time he saw him.  But then we learn in 1.4 that the last time Ned saw Robert was during the Greyjoy rebellion nine years previous not seven or five.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I
"It will be good to see the children. The youngest was still sucking at the Lannister woman's teat the last time I saw him. He must be, what, five by now?"
"Prince Tommen is seven," she told him. "The same age as Bran. Please, Ned, guard your tongue. The Lannister woman is our queen, and her pride is said to grow with every passing year."


So Ned is thinking of Joffrey as the youngest the last time he saw him nine years previous.  How can Joffrey be the youngest if he is the firstborn of Robert's children.  We learn later that Robert has at least one bastard who is older in the Vale.  Catelyn has also heard rumors of Robert's bastards (probably from Lysa) and she recognizes that Ned is thinking about Robert's older bastards.  Ned is confusing Joffrey with Tommen who has an older sister and an older brother.  Catelyn recognizes that Ned is confusing the two and thinking about Robert's bastards.  She corrects him and tells him to guard his tongue.

Blatantly stating something like "Lyanna was kidnapped" isn't a clue.  Nor is it in any way subtle.  

 

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It's more than likely, to put it mildly.

 

Edited by Фейсал

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15 hours ago, manchester_babe said:

I know the books are so....different but is R+L=J canon? I worded this wrong. Is it possible in the books?

It will be, assuming the next book will get published

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16 hours ago, manchester_babe said:

is R+L=J canon? I worded this wrong. Is it possible in the books?

Certainly.

And I think you've worded that very well, actually.  Possible is the correct term.

Once people start using phrases like "unwritten canon" or "100% probability" they've wandered unwittingly onto a section of very thin ice.

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If you want to run with Robert + L = J why would Ned hide him from Robert? what's the promise he made? 

Robert/Lyanna were also merely betrothed and IIRC Ned says Robert didn't actually know her very well, doubt they got intimate enough to conceive a boy. 

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On 9/26/2017 at 8:28 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's absolutely possible. It hasn't been stated in the books but there are many hints toward it. You must be new? If you use the search feature you will find a crap ton about it. 

I've watched the show. And now I'm reading the books. (I'm on A Clash Of Kings)

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On 27/09/2017 at 6:01 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

It will be, assuming the next book will get published

Or the last book. I would rather bet on a very late reveal. Even if we have plenty of evidences Jon is the promised prince in the next book. I like the idea of having an insane amount of evidences. And still people saying "maybe not." At some point, any other alternative is plain absurdity or bad story.

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On 9/26/2017 at 8:25 PM, manchester_babe said:

I know the books are so....different but is R+L=J canon? I worded this wrong. Is it possible in the books?

Oh no.  It is not canon in the books.  It is possible but only one of many other possibilities.  There is Brandon + Lyanna, Ned + Ashara, Mance + Lyanna, etc.

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