Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

577 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I'm guessing it will be corrected by the intrepid wiki editors soon. :)

Contrary to the claims of some, we are the Keepers of the Lore, ser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, VisenyaTargaryen said:

Oh man... I was really excited about this book because I wanted to know more about Visenya, but this made me quite sad. :(

When I first read about her being passionate, a seductress, a warrior, etc, I immediately liked her, but it seems to me that GRRM wanted her to be "The Evil Sister™", or the female version of Tywin (or Stannis). Her character seemed quite unpleasant, while all the good traits went to the "good sister", aka Rhaenys. So I was hoping to read good things about Visenya in The Sons of the Dragon, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Either way, I can't wait to read this book, even though I have no idea when it's going to be released in my country. Until then, I'll keep checking this thread religiously. Thank you very much for sharing! ^_^

Visenya was always extremely ruthless, albeit highly competent.  And, she did live to be 73, whereas Rhaenys possibly came to a very unpleasant end.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just finished reading, and noticed a few inconsistencies.

First of all, Robar Baratheon. Spelled Robar thrice in TWOIAF, Rogar trice and Robar once in TSOTD.

Secondly, Prince Viserys, born in 29 AC, is described as sixteen years old at his death in 44 AC in SOTD, but fifteen by Yandel. An explainable, but still..

More importantly, Yandel's account gives the mysterious death of the High Septon at Oldtown when Maegor and Visenya threatened to burn the city as having occurred in 44 AC, yet TSOTD clearly places it in 43 AC. Which one is correct here?

Also, Aenys is mentioned as having "sons and grandsons" while Maegor is king. Since English is not my native language, I assume that this is some king of expression, since Aenys did not actually have grandsons?

 

Sadly, no more information on the Velaryon family tree, or information regarding Corlys's parents. But, at least we know now when Rhaena's twins had been born! With the pregnancy announced in 41 AC and the children being less than a year old in 43 AC, their birth is placed in 42 AC :) One "mystery" solved!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Ah, good to know with Dreamfyre.

I'm hesitant to assume Dreamfyre was from Quicksilver, but who knows.  Heck, even as late as the Dance of the Dragons, they might still have had Meraxes eggs lying around...or eggs from the other four besides Balerion who first game to Dragonstone.

That might be the case but we have no reason to believe that such ancient eggs hatched on a regular basis. From what we know, the younger generations during the reign of Viserys I all got their dragon eggs from Syrax and Caraxes.

Quote

I kind of hoped that any time they mention one laying a clutch of eggs was a hint that others descended from it....but thanks to the Cannibal, a lot of those hatchlings never lived to adulthood.

The Cannibal doesn't show up here. Could be he was still around, could be he wasn't. I honestly doubt he had much look raiding those hatcheries while Balerion and Vhagar were essentially permanently in residence on Dragonstone.

Quote

Visenya "destroyed castles"....with Vhagar?  She could still ride a dragon at her age?

Sure:

Quote

It was his mother who struck first. The Dowager Queen mounted Vhagar and brought fire and blood to the Reach as once she had to Dorne. In a single night, the seats of House Blanetree, House Terrick, House Deddings, House Lychester, and House Wayn were set aflame.

Apparently the Wayns are originally from the Reach and where a prominent house in their own right once.

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Visenya was always extremely ruthless, albeit highly competent.  And, she did live to be 73, whereas Rhaenys possibly came to a very unpleasant end.

See above. She was pretty badass.

However, the whole war against the Faith was more or less a holocaust or eradication program. The way it is presented the Faith Militant never stood a real chance. Not against people like Maegor and Visenya.

13 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

First of all, Robar Baratheon. Spelled Robar thrice in TWOIAF, Rogar trice and Robar once in TSOTD.

Where did you find a Robar in TSotD?

13 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Secondly, Prince Viserys, born in 29 AC, is described as sixteen years old at his death in 44 AC in SOTD, but fifteen by Yandel. An explainable, but still.

Yeah, that seems to be a mistake Ran/Linda corrected in TWoIaF.

13 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

More importantly, Yandel's account gives the mysterious death of the High Septon at Oldtown when Maegor and Visenya threatened to burn the city as having occurred in 44 AC, yet TSOTD clearly places it in 43 AC. Which one is correct here?

I assume 43 AC, considering TSotD puts the entire campaign in that year. The High Septon died when the dragons came knocking at the doors of Oldtown.

13 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Also, Aenys is mentioned as having "sons and grandsons" while Maegor is king. Since English is not my native language, I assume that this is some king of expression, since Aenys did not actually have grandsons?

I think that's a mistake, too. It should either read 'sons and granddaughters'. Or perhaps even better 'children and grandchildren'. After all, Aenys had three sons, two daughters, and two granddaughters. The line doesn't seem to refer to any bastards he might have had in addition to his legitimate children.

13 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Sadly, no more information on the Velaryon family tree, or information regarding Corlys's parents. But, at least we know now when Rhaena's twins had been born! With the pregnancy announced in 41 AC and the children being less than a year old in 43 AC, their birth is placed in 42 AC :) One "mystery" solved!

Yeah, it actually seems to be pretty late in 42 AC, considering that Gyldayn immediately begins with the account on the year 43 after covering the birth of the twins.

It seems that Aethan Velaryon may have died in 42 AC, since Alyssa Velaryon seeks refuge with her lord father but later on - when she and the other Velaryons attend Maegor's wedding to Tyanna and do the king homage - only Alyssa's brothers and cousins are mentioned, not her father. One assumes Aethan and Maegor might have gotten along pretty well, in light of the fact that they warred together on the Stepstones a decade ago. In that sense one would expect him to show up for the wedding if he was still around. And the later Lord Velaryon is clearly not Aethan.

In that sense it is exceedingly likely that the Lord Daemon Velaryon mentioned in TWoIaF was indeed Alyssa's brother.

And as I've said - there is no textual evidence in that story that Alyssa Velaryon had a Targaryen mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That might be the case but we have no reason to believe that such ancient eggs hatched on a regular basis. From what we know, the younger generations during the reign of Viserys I all got their dragon eggs from Syrax and Caraxes.

....from a turn of phrase in TRP, I think Caraxes sired some with Vhagar too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It was his mother who struck first. The Dowager Queen mounted Vhagar and brought fire and blood to the Reach as once she had to Dorne. In a single night, the seats of House Blanetree, House Terrick, House Deddings, House Lychester, and House Wayn were set aflame.

Apparently the Wayns are originally from the Reach and where a prominent house in their own right once.

 

Actually all of the houses you mentioned are from the riverlands, this is odd. Perhaps the reach thing is a mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is. We had corrected that in TWoIaF. It seems George gave Gardner the initial version of Sons of the Dragon to work from, not the one that had edits. So there's mistakes in "Sons of the Dragon" that shouldn't be there. We'll see if we can get them fixed in future editions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Where did you find a Robar in TSotD?

Last page of the hard print copy.

His mother Alyssa would act as his regent during the remaining years of the king's minority, whilst Lord Robar Baratheon was named Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. (Half a year later, the two of them would wed.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Actually all of the houses you mentioned are from the riverlands, this is odd. Perhaps the reach thing is a mistake.

Well, I found it odd that the Wayns would be originally from the Reach, but who am I to second-guess the author ;-).

While Visenya burned the Riverlords, Maegor took care of the West:

Quote

Then Maegor himself took wing, flying Balerion to the westerlands, where he burned the castles of the Broomes, the Falwells, the Lorches, the Myatts, and the other “pious lords” who had defied his royal summons.

Those houses are all Westermen, right?

By the way - that Joffrey Doggett chap - a Westermen whose castle and entire family Maegor burned, too - Ran/Linda got to include into TWoIaF is Ser Damon Morrigen's successor as Grand Captain of the Warrior's Sons. He was a pretty significant dude.

It seems the Faith Militant was strongest in the Reach, the West, and the Riverlands - with the biggest chapters of the Warrior's Sons being in Oldtown, Lannisport, Stoney Sept, and King's Landing. There should have been a lot of them in the Vale, too, but those don't feature prominently.

29 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Last page of the hard print copy.

His mother Alyssa would act as his regent during the remaining years of the king's minority, whilst Lord Robar Baratheon was named Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. (Half a year later, the two of them would wed.)

That is 'Rogar', too, in my ebook copy. It seems my hard copy is only going to come next week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a difference between the e-book and printed version? That is bizzare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is 'Rogar', too, in my ebook copy. It seems my hard copy is only going to come next week.

That's odd.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

List of confirmed mistakes:

Robar Baratheon > Rogar Baratheon

He is still called Robar at least once in one of the final paragraphs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ran said:

There's a difference between the e-book and printed version? That is bizzare.

 

27 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That's odd.. 

It seems that way. I don't know why that's the case. Perhaps due to some editing done to the ebook version only? Or some sort of converging issue? There is another instance in the story where an 'm' shows up as 'nr', if I remember correctly - no idea what the word was. That kind of thing might be a hint in that direction. Or not.

18 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

He is still called Robar at least once in one of the final paragraphs.

See above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reign of Maegor I Targaryen, known to history and legend as Maegor the Cruel, lasted six years and sixty-six days. 

Apparently, Maegor was the Antichrist. 

A lot of the resistance to his reign seemed to be akin to the BwB, in that it was mostly smallfolk based. 

Tyanna has a strong Varys vibe: spymaster connected to a Pentoshi magister, associates with spiders and rats (counterpart to mice) and engages in assassination and sorcery. I think she and Maegor deserve each other. Both are pretty sadistic psychopaths.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before Sons of the Dragon, did we know that no common fire could harm Valyrian steel? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Before Sons of the Dragon, did we know that no common fire could harm Valyrian steel? 

It's come up a time or 2 when discussing Lamentation.  I figure dragon fire destroyed it.  Dragon fire is part of the process.  VS has to have some sort of defense against regular flame.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1)

Quote

Queen Visenya put a sword into her son’s hand when he was three. Supposedly the first thing he did with the blade was butcher one of the castle cats, men said…though more like this tale was a calumny devised by his enemies many years later.

This reminded me of Joffrey:

Quote

"Joffrey . . . I remember once, this kitchen cat . . . the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he'd killed him." (Davos VI, ASOS)

2)

Quote

Nonetheless, thousands came to cheer King Aenys as he claimed his father’s seat for his own. Thereafter His Grace set out for Oldtown to receive the blessing of the High Septon, traveling by way of Riverrun, Lannisport, and Highgarden on a grand royal progress. His wife and children made the journey with him, and all along the route the smallfolk appeared by the hundreds and thousands to hail their new king and queen. At the Starry Sept, the High Septon anointed him as he had his father, and presented him with a crown of yellow gold, with the faces of the Seven inlaid in jade and pearl.

Doesn't this read like the High Septon who anointed Aenys is the same High Septon who anointed Aegon? But of course that doesn't make sense because the High Septon who anointed Aegon died in 11 AC, and there were numerous High Septons after that.

3)

Quote

Prince Maegor, on the other hand, was rigid as an iron rod, unyielding, unbending.

Donal Noye gave a similar description of Stannis:

Quote

"Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." (Jon I, ACOK)

4)

Quote

At the high table, Queen Visenya rose and stalked from the hall without the king’s leave. That night she mounted Vhagar and returned to Dragonstone, and it is written that when her dragon passed before the moon, that orb turned as red as blood.

This line caught my eye, given the legend that dragons come from the moon:

Quote

"A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon," blond Doreah said as she warmed a towel over the fire. Jhiqui and Irri were of an age with Dany, Dothraki girls taken as slaves when Drogo destroyed their father's khalasar. Doreah was older, almost twenty. Magister Illyrio had found her in a pleasure house in Lys.

Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. "The moon?"

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return." (Daenerys III, AGOT)

5) Maegor's Trial of Seven obviously brings to mind Dunk's Trial of Seven. Specifically, Bernarr Brune's "Are there no true knights here?" is reminiscent of Dunk's "ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?" And Maegor received "a terrible blow to the head that cracked his helm and left him insensate" which is similar to how Baelor died.

6)

Quote

When the ragged bands encamped about castle Crakehall left to join their fellows on the march, Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena were finally able to depart. Abandoning their royal progress, they made their way to Casterly Rock, where Lord Lyman Lannister offered them his protection.

And to think, years later a Lannister would order the deaths of Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenays.

7)

Quote

When Wat the Hewer was delivered to him, chained yet still defiant, Maegor took off his limbs with the giant’s own axe, but commanded his maesters to keep the man alive “so he might attend my wedding.”

This is similar to what the Mountain did to Vargo Hoat:

Quote

"We heard the Mountain killed him piece by piece. A hand one day, a foot the next, lopped off neat and clean. They bandaged up the stumps so Hoat didn't die." (Brienne IV, AFFC)

8) A small spelling discrepancy:

Quote

Big Jon Hogg, fighting for the king, was blinded by a sword slash early in the battle, yet rallied his men and led a charge that broke through the lines of the Faithful and put the Poor Fellows to flight.

Quote

Old Lord Merryweather was the next to die, followed by Lord Rowan’s son and heir, Davos Darklyn’s aged father, even Blind John Hogg.

9) 

Quote

Rhaena never doubted that he would, she said afterward; it was question of when, not if.

There should be an "a" between there, I believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just finished my first read of TSotD and I'm quite happy to have new ASoI&F material to discuss. I have to say I see absolutely no evidence here that there was an agreement between Aegon, Aenys, or Maegor with the Faith to limit Targaryen marriage customs either in the area of polygamy or in what the Faith considers to be incest. To the contrary,  we are told the following:

Quote

Familiarity is the father of acceptance, it is said. The High Septon who had crowned Aegon the Conqueror remained the Shepherd of the Faithful unit his death in 11AC, by which time the realm had grown accustomed to the notion of a king with two queens, who were both wives and sister"

A new kingdom that had grown through the years of Aegon's rule to accept the Targaryens did these things differently. 

The closest to any agreement we see is a communication between the High Septon and Aegon about Visenya's proposal of a marriage between the twelve year old Prince Maegor and the new born Rhaena. Not only is there objection to the marriage from the Faith, but also from Rhaena's parents, Prince Aenys and Princess Alyssa. With the suggestion of Ceryse Hightower as an alternative bride, Aegon agrees to this second match for Maegor in an attempt to keep the Faith's support. But here it is important to note that this concerns incest, not polygamy. We know from the wedding of Aenys's children that there is no support for a ban on such marriages that the Targaryens have agreed to.

I could go on, and if LV or anyone wants to dispute my reading of the text, I will happily do so. Loving to finally discuss new Martin material.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Those houses are all Westermen, right?

 

Yes they are :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

See above. She was pretty badass.

However, the whole war against the Faith was more or less a holocaust or eradication program. The way it is presented the Faith Militant never stood a real chance. Not against people like Maegor and Visenya.

 

I'd love to get a story from Visenya's POV.

I think of her as Livia Augusta with a dragon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now