House Frey should be respected

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Roof - noun

1. 1.
   the structure forming the upper covering of a building or vehicle.

    

   monocle_emoji_man.jpg

    

   Yes the tent clearly is not a roof. It's a structure that has a roof. My bad. GUYS FREYS ARE FREE AND CLEAR

    

No offence, but did you actually bother to read anything I wrote? The actual quotes from the books? Th fact that bread and salt as well as being under the host's roof is what counts as offering guest rights?

And who claimed the Freys were free and clear? There was a hundred, maybe more guests that they broke guest rights to. Probably the largest breakdown of this custom in the history of Westeros. No one is claiming the Freys are free and clear or that what they did to the soldiers outside was deserved, it wasn't, with or without guest rights it was still and underhanded shitty thing to do. 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No offence, but did you actually bother to read anything I wrote? The actual quotes from the books? Th fact that bread and salt as well as being under the host's roof is what counts as offering guest rights?

Yes and summarily dismissed the legal case study you did on guest right because literally nothing the author writes in this book is held to that level of scrutiny and people in story call it violating guest right/consider. It makes no sense to when people like Marq Piper say otherwise.

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And who claimed the Freys were free and clear? There was a hundred, maybe more guests that they broke guest rights to. Probably the largest breakdown of this custom in the history of Westeros. No one is claiming the Freys are free and clear or that what they did to the soldiers outside was deserved, it wasn't, with or without guest rights it was still and underhanded shitty thing to do. 

I did. Scroll up.

 

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes and summarily dismissed the legal case study you did on guest right because literally nothing the author writes in this book is held to that level of scrutiny and people in story call it violating guest right/consider.

Who in the boosk refer to the soldiers outside the Twins being protected by the Guest Rights? I genuinely have missed that quote but will be happy to be wrong?

The conversation between Tyrion and Tywin strongly implies that it was only Robb and his guests inside the Twins that were protected Guest Rights. 

In fact Cat is in the Freys hall and she does not consider herself protected until she has had food. 

And it is not a high level of scrutiny, it is pointing out what the people of Westeros consider to be Guest Rights. 

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It makes no sense to when people like Marq Piper say otherwise.

eh? I think you may be confusing Marq Piper with Clement Piper. Marq is captured at the Twins, we see no quotes from him on the subject. 

"I don't imply, Frey. I say what I mean straight out, like an honest man. But what would you know of the ways of honest men? You're a treacherous lying weasel, like all your kin. I'd sooner drink a pint of piss than take the word of any Frey." He leaned across the table. "Where is Marq, answer me that? What have you done with my son? He was a guest at your bloody wedding."

"And our honored guest he shall remain," said Edwyn, "until you prove your loyalty to His Grace, King Tommen."

"Five knights and twenty men-at-arms went with Marq to the Twins," said Piper. "Are they your guests as well, Frey?"

"Some of the knights, perhaps. The others were served no more than they deserved."

 

Though it bares pointing out that the Riverland contingnet in Robbs host were mostly guests of the wedding, rather than part of the army. 

 

"Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north."

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I did. Scroll up.

There is 20 pages. If you want to make accusations against people then at least quote them rather than vaguely hinting that some did. 

I have never claimed the Freys were free and clear and pointing out that the books are more than clear on what constitutes as  guest rights, as much as you don't like it, it not claiming the Frey's are innocent. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

 

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The conversation between Tyrion and Tywin strongly implies that it was only Robb and his guests inside the Twins that were protected Guest Rights. 

Not one bit. I'm not debating this with you. Clement Piper and Edwyn Frey both consider the entire Piper contingent guests. You posted the quote yourself.

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is 20 pages. If you want to make accusations against people then at least quote them rather than vaguely hinting that some did. 

An accusation against myself? I literally typed that phrase and said I typed it. What are you on about?

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I have never claimed the Freys were free and clear and pointing out that the books are more than clear on what constitutes as  guest rights, as much as you don't like it, it not claiming the Frey's are innocent. 

The books are not free and clear. That's the whole point of the f*cking series.

[Bernie Mac]

10 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Not one bit. I'm not debating this with you. Clement Piper and Edwyn Frey both consider the entire Piper contingent guests. You posted the quote yourself.

Edwyn does not. Or did you miss the perhaps?

"Are they your guests as well, Frey?"

"Some of the knights, perhaps. The others were served no more than they deserved."

 

And Piper only mentions that his son was a guest. 

10 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

An accusation against myself? I literally typed that phrase and said I typed it. What are you on about?

Forget it. I have no idea what you are on about. Instead of responding to what I wrote you made some  bizarre comment about the Freys being free and clear in reply to what I said. As I have never claimed that they I don't understand what you were trying to infer. 

10 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The books are not free and clear. That's the whole point of the f*cking series.

Some things are. You want to make an argument that Guest Rights does not include food, that the many characters I quoted who all claimed that food is part of the deal then make a decent case for it. So far you have offered nothing. 

And if you think the whole point of the series is that nothing is "free and clear" then why are you adamant that the Freys owed the soldiers outside of the Twins, the soldiers who they offered no food to, the protection of Guest Rights?

 

 

[Kandrax]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No one is claiming the Freys are free and clear or that what they did to the soldiers outside was deserved, it wasn't, with or without guest rights it was still and underhanded shitty thing to do. 

 

 

Well, scumbags among them deserved.

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is book only forum. So he was talking about the book series not the show. 

In fairness it was a reference to a show scene 

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Well, scumbags among them deserved.

Please gives us quotes from the books that support this gross assertion. Name the scumbags. Actually there are more scumbags in the Frey family than in the entire North/Riverlands army.

btw, everyone here has grasped that you were a lover of the red wedding, but do you really need to use swearwords in each of your posts?

[Kandrax]

46 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Please gives us quotes from the books that support this gross assertion. Name the scumbags. Actually there are more scumbags in the Frey family than in the entire North/Riverlands army.

btw, everyone here has grasped that you were a lover of the red wedding, but do you really need to use swearwords in each of your posts?

Evidences that i am lover of the red wedding.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

In fairness it was a reference to a show scene 

Sorry about that @Kandrax! Thanks for correcting me Jaehaerys

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The Freys will never be respected . One they are seen as gaining their power through money and not blood . Walder Frey actions seen only to justify people's hatred of the Freys .

[300 H&H Magnum]

Here's the bottom line.  The Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters won.  The Starks and the North got their asses handed to them.  It's sour grapes coming from sore losers.  And the phrase "the north remembers" is pretty stupid.  It just results in more conflict for the future.  The Starks chose to play the game of thrones and they played badly.  The Starks forced the Freys to join them, then betrayed them, and thought bread and salt could wipe away the insult. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Here's the bottom line.  The Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters won.  The Starks and the North got their asses handed to them.  It's sour grapes coming from sore losers.  And the phrase "the north remembers" is pretty stupid.  It just results in more conflict for the future.  The Starks chose to play the game of thrones and they played badly.  The Starks forced the Freys to join them, then betrayed them, and thought bread and salt could wipe away the insult. 

The Freys could not be forced to join the rebellion(though it's clear Robb would do so or destroy them if it served his interests and he could and Catelyn did threaten lord Frey)), the Freys only needed to wait and buckle down in their castle. And the rebellion would end at the twins

[Yukle]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who in the boosk refer to the soldiers outside the Twins being protected by the Guest Rights? I genuinely have missed that quote but will be happy to be wrong?

Think of the Frey's holdings as being their entire house, with a roof over it. From the moment you step onto Walder Frey's lands, you are either trespassing or you have a valid reason for being there. If he decides that you're not allowed on his land, and arrests you, the Crown wouldn't intervene on your behalf. It's his land and he can do what he likes on it.

The Twins would have a parcel of land connected to the castles which act as their property, too. The people at the wedding were all invited by Frey to be there, with his permission, and were eating and drinking at his expense under the understanding that they were guests.

All of the people present were only there because Walder Frey invited them, so they're all covered by guest right. The whole purpose of the tradition is to avoid complications arising from being invited into a house with whom you are feuding; beginning with sharing bread and salt, or offering some other hospitality, is a contract that none of the parties present will engage in any violence or harm to the others.

[300 H&H Magnum]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The Freys could not be forced to join the rebellion(though it's clear Robb would do so or destroy them if it served his interests and he could and Catelyn did threaten lord Frey)), the Freys only needed to wait and buckle down in their castle. And the rebellion would end at the twins

Closing the gates and waiting for Tywin is not a bad choice if the Tullys all die in the war.  The Tullys would punish the Freys for staying neutral.

[Bernie Mac]

8 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Think of the Frey's holdings as being their entire house, with a roof over it. From the moment you step onto Walder Frey's lands, you are either trespassing or you have a valid reason for being there.

By that logic Robb Stark broke guest rights when some of his invited guests killed others in Winter town. 

"Don't act the boy with me, Bran," Robb said. "You know better than that. Only two days ago one of Lord Bolton's men knifed one of Lord Cerwyn's at the Smoking Log. Our lady mother would skin me for a pelt if I let you put yourself at risk." 

Yet it is clear that no one considers this a breaking of Guest Rights. 

And this ignores what Cat actually says, as despite having been invited to the Twins, been allowed inside she still does not feel she is protected until she has had food. The books are pretty clear, I don't know why everyone is ignoring what they actually say and making up their own interpretations of the custom that is clearly stated multiple times throughout the books. 

Quote

 

If he decides that you're not allowed on his land, and arrests you, the Crown wouldn't intervene on your behalf. It's his land and he can do what he likes on it.

Walder invited them. That is what the whole negotiations at Riverrun were about and yet not a single person beleives this invite protects them. Cat pointedly, on more than one occasion, stresses that it is food that that seals their protection 

"Robb, listen to me. Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof."

Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt.

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"My guests," he said. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."

"We thank you for your hospitality, my lord," Robb replied. Edmure echoed him, along with the Greatjon, Ser Marq Piper, and the others. They drank his wine and ate his bread and butter. Catelyn tasted the wine and nibbled at some bread, and felt much the better for it. Now we should be safe, she thought.

 

Why do people think GRRM has Cat, Sansa, Mance, Davos and other characters point out what constitutes as guest rights if it is as simple as being invited to be on a man's property?

Tywin Lannister and his army were invited by Aerys into Kings Landing and despite everyone acknowledging that this was a shitty dishonrable betrayal by Tywin, no one considers it as breaking guest rights, which if we go by your definition it clearly would be. 

Quote

The Twins would have a parcel of land connected to the castles which act as their property, too.

Were the camp was set up was not connected to the castle ala Wintertown's connection to Winterfell. 

 "We have thrown up three great feast tents on the far bank, to provide them with some shelter from the rains."

Quote

 

The people at the wedding were all invited by Frey to be there, with his permission, and were eating and drinking at his expense under the understanding that they were guests.

Yes, the guests inside the wedding were. The soldiers, who were returning home to liberate the North.  outside were not, nor were they offered food by Walder. The Freys are quite pointed about this. 

Edwyn cleared his throat. "We have chambers prepared for you in the Water Tower, Your Grace," he told Robb with careful courtesy, "as well as for Lord Tully and Lady Stark. Your lords bannermen are also welcome to shelter under our roof and partake of the wedding feast."

"And my men?" asked Robb.

 "My lord grandfather regrets that he cannot feed nor house so large a host. 

 

So while the Freys do savagley break guest rights, from everything we have been told in the series it is only the guests inside who were protected, the soldiers who he did not feed and are not under his roof (both of which have to happen) were not protected. 

That is what we have been told, nothing anyone has said has contradicted the information we have been given about Guest Rights in the books. Now in the future GRRM may offer further information on the subject and it will change but until then the information we have shows that the soldiers outside were not protected by Guest Rights unlike the hundreds of Nobles inside. 

Quote

All of the people present were only there because Walder Frey invited them, so they're all covered by guest right.

So why does Cat repeatedly tell Robb to eat his food?

Why does GRRM have so many characters bring up salt and bread (food) as what protects them? Why does Craster's wife warn Jon that he is not protected because he did not sleep under Craster's roof or eat his food? Why does Mance, who was not invited to Winterfell by Ned, make it clear he was protected as he ate Ned's food?

 

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Closing the gates and waiting for Tywin is not a bad choice if the Tullys all die in the war.  The Tullys would punish the Freys for staying neutral.

Like they were punished for Roberts Rebellion? Stop making stuff up. They were never going to be punished for staying out the war. The Freys would have been fine staying out the war  

[The Sunland Lord]

6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Evidences that i am lover of the red wedding.

In the previous post you wrote. It's easy to find. 

9 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Well, scumbags among them deserved.

 

[Kandrax]

On 22.1.2018. at 0:06 PM, Kandrax said:

Massacre can only be justified if someone was blackmailed.

 

[Kandrax]

47 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

In the previous post you wrote. It's easy to find. 

 

Read above post.