S John Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 nanny state leftist complains about government fines... If Oliver interviewed someone about the topic (Rand Paul perhaps) rather than his 20 minute scripted soapbox, they might say this is the product of the thousands of chicken shit laws controlling everything we do. Perhaps but the examples Oliver gave were speeding, running a stop sign, and shoplifting. Those things are always going to be illegal and they should be. But the punishment should fit the crime. If you can't pay the fee, you should have to do some community service and that should be the end of it. Nobody deserves to have their life ruined over committing a petty crime. The problem is that too many communities rely on revenue generated by traffic tickets and other fines to offer citizens a community service option. Which essentially means that the police force is not only there to serve and protect, they are also quite literally out to get people because they need to shake their own community down for our lunch money in order to meet their budget needs. And some continue to be baffled as to why so many Americans dislike and mistrust the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 In some European countries, traffic fines are calculated based on your income, which makes sense if the purpose of the fine is prevention and everyone is 'equal under the law'. In Norway there's a central collection agency for unpaid fines, student loans, child support, and such. They have the power to collect the debt directly from your employer, or from the tax authorities if you've paid in too much taxes, but there are regulations which ensures that they won't take too much, and there's no extra or late fees. The Penal Code have some penalties that have fines or prison, but prison is only an option if you actually refuses to pay the fines, not if you're unable to pay the fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Somewhat unrelated but the biggest municipal fine has to be for a new residential building in west hollywood. A year after residents moved in, some nimby decided to file a lawsuit, found a typo or some nonsense in the permits and now wants to steal the residents condos forcibly evict them and tear down the building. They'll probably win to. There's also a target in Hollywood that nimbys retroactively challenged their approved permits and got a judge to shut it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 In some European countries, traffic fines are calculated based on your income, which makes sense if the purpose of the fine is prevention and everyone is 'equal under the law'. Shouldn't it be based on wealth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 the libertarians have a point. While the spiral late fees and collection shenanigans are a huge part of the problem, another part of the problem is having rules that everybody is going break and enforcement is entirely discretionary. An obvious example is speed limits which are either set arbitrarily or far too low in order to collect money from speeding tickets. Instead speed limits should be set at something near the 85th percentile of the speeds of cars traveling on the road. Removing much of the discretion (obviously it would be a idea to remove discretion) from enforcement gives law enforcement much less room to disproportionately target minorities and the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 the libertarians have a point. While the spiral late fees and collection shenanigans are a huge part of the problem, another part of the problem is having rules that everybody is going break and enforcement is entirely discretionary. An obvious example is speed limits which are either set arbitrarily or far too low in order to collect money from speeding tickets. Instead speed limits should be set at something near the 85th percentile of the speeds of cars traveling on the road. Removing much of the discretion (obviously it would be a idea to remove discretion) from enforcement gives law enforcement much less room to disproportionately target minorities and the poor. Not going to happen. Either you have a speed limit or you don't. The way to remove discretion is to install radar cameras and send tickets to everyone who breaks the law, or remove the speed limit altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkerX Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Guess I'm lucky up here in the north country. Or maybe the situation is a bit different. Here, rule of thumb is, if its a very minor traffic violation - say running a stop sign or no more than ten miles over the speed limit, AND the cop gives you a ticket, there are two ways out: 1 - Challenge in court. Folks at the courthouse absolutely DO NOT want their time taken up with such petty matters. Fair chance this will result in a dismissal before a court date is set. 2 - If no prior's in a long while, something that minor the cops will often give up on the paperwork. I am reliably informed the paperwork for even a minor traffic infraction takes hours. This happened to me a few years ago: cop pulled me over for not signaling quick enough, wrote me a ticket...and then nothing. Went and checked, paperwork never went through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 yeah, frags, dunno. i got like yaknow no sympathy for parking violators, speeders, and other lumpenized antisocial nihilists. if y'all can't be civilized, move to some scumbag libertopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Not going to happen. Either you have a speed limit or you don't. The way to remove discretion is to install radar cameras and send tickets to everyone who breaks the law, or remove the speed limit altogether. I'm not saying get rid of speed limits, I'm saying they should be close to 85th percentile of the speeds people actually drive through. the video explains it in detail. This already built into most yellow light lengths (except for the ones that are shortened in conjunction with installing read light cameras) which are designed to be safe for 85% of the people driving through rather than the speed limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 nanny state leftist complains about government fines... If Oliver interviewed someone about the topic (Rand Paul perhaps) rather than his 20 minute scripted soapbox, they might say this is the product of the thousands of chicken shit laws controlling everything we do. Case in point, Eric Garner. Nanny state leftists complaining about the effect of small government. All of this could be easily addressed when streamlining this regulatory and financial shit at state or nation levels rather than municipal or community. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zelticgar Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Guess I'm lucky up here in the north country. Or maybe the situation is a bit different. Here, rule of thumb is, if its a very minor traffic violation - say running a stop sign or no more than ten miles over the speed limit, AND the cop gives you a ticket, there are two ways out: 1 - Challenge in court. Folks at the courthouse absolutely DO NOT want their time taken up with such petty matters. Fair chance this will result in a dismissal before a court date is set. 2 - If no prior's in a long while, something that minor the cops will often give up on the paperwork. I am reliably informed the paperwork for even a minor traffic infraction takes hours. This happened to me a few years ago: cop pulled me over for not signaling quick enough, wrote me a ticket...and then nothing. Went and checked, paperwork never went through. I'd actually add a 1a on front - be nice to the cop when you get pulled over. Not sure if I was just lucky but the last two times I've been pulled over I was able to get off with warnings. Had my license and registration handy, kept my hands on the steering wheel so they could see what i was up to and immediately fessed up to driving too fast and apologized. Both stops were up in rural areas of New Hampshire so it could just be the location but it is still a good idea to give being nice a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish pasty Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 There was a BBC radio documentary about this a couple of weeks ago too."The bizarre workings of St. Louis county Missouri"Should still be available on the BBC documentaries podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 In some European countries, traffic fines are calculated based on your income, which makes sense if the purpose of the fine is prevention and everyone is 'equal under the law'. You're unfamiliar with the United State's version of equality that is popular in some quarters of our political landscape? You know, they think flat tax is fair, because, look, everyone is paying the same percentage! In Norway there's a central collection agency for unpaid fines, student loans, child support, and such. They have the power to collect the debt directly from your employer, or from the tax authorities if you've paid in too much taxes, but there are regulations which ensures that they won't take too much, and there's no extra or late fees. Where's the profit for private companies in that model? Pffffppppppt. Re: Zeltigar Not sure if I was just lucky but the last two times I've been pulled over I was able to get off with warnings. Lucky to be born with a lack of melanin in your skin epidermis, perhaps. But sure, give being nice and cooperative a try, if you get pulled over. For many, that's hardly going to make a difference. For some, it can. So worth a shot, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 TP,My lack of Melinnin hasn't done me much good. I haven't gotten a warning in 20 years and I also make a point to be polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 TP,My lack of Melinnin hasn't done me much good. I haven't gotten a warning in 20 years and I also make a point to be polite. There is just something about you that screams lawyer, I imagine it would be more obvious if your wearing a suit at the time and not shorts. Its not just about being polite, but also being suitably embarased. Also batting eylids and a kind of shy gental flirting has been kinda effective for me. (although that may have more to do with being pulled over by the same police officer a few times for a routine stop and looking about 12 a few years earlier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 When municipalities do not get the revenue needed to function, they too often turn to regressive 'fines' to replace progressive taxes.Also, 'scofflaws' are easy targets for for-profit companies. Leave a car in a tow-away zone in San Francisco (which involve arcane rules that are often poorly marked) if you don't believe me. $85 a day storage fees - twice the legal limit for overnight parking in a garage. And your car sold if you can't pay. And if your car doesn't generate enough money at the auction, expect liens with aggressive fines added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mance Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 My lack of Melinnin hasn't done me much good. I haven't gotten a warning in 20 years and I also make a point to be polite. On how many of those warning stops were you and the occupants of your vehicle ordered out of the car, searched, and left cuffed on the sidewalk while the nice officers ran background checks on the lot of you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 TP,My lack of Melinnin hasn't done me much good. I haven't gotten a warning in 20 years and I also make a point to be polite. A rough estimate indicates you've been shot dead after a routine traffic stop exactly zero times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuellar Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 On how many of those warning stops were you and the occupants of your vehicle ordered out of the car, searched, and left cuffed on the sidewalk while the nice officers ran background checks on the lot of you? Probably showed some skin to get out of it... It'll be interesting to see what these government organizations do when all the cars are automated and traffic fines don't provide any revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 On how many of those warning stops were you and the occupants of your vehicle ordered out of the car, searched, and left cuffed on the sidewalk while the nice officers ran background checks on the lot of you? A rough estimate indicates you've been shot dead after a routine traffic stop exactly zero times. while i would never speak for my friend Ser Scot...since he is more than capable of doing it himself.... ...i don't believe he was minimizing the issue of racial profiling and other bogus treatment of peole of color (including horrific murders)...i think he was pointing out rightly that his skin color hasn't stopped him from being ticketed by cops...i am in this same sub-group...i can't remember the last warning i got...though i do remember getting ticketed for less than 10 miles over speed limit while surrounded by drunken fools driving all over the road...cop literally said i chose you because i knew you would stop...really??!! i also watched the show cited in Fragile Bird's OP...i got that it was less the cities and more the private companies that the city assigned the debt to that ran up the fees etc...and that they collect their fees before paying fines...now that is an issue - the privatization of public services...why not just pay more clerks to process fines...instead of handing debt off to a service that charges to pay a bill you could walk off the street and pay in person...i have been fined plenty in my life...and all were processed by the employees of the place i violated...not a pay your ticket on line for 100 additional dollars private company looking to make a profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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