Robb_Warged Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, I was. My brain just refused to discuss blame about long dead characters so I automatically jumped to the one who did not "ally" with stannis... You must have a difficult time interacting with GOT/ASOIAF fandom then :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night'sQueen Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Robb was never wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
of man and wolf Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'm a Renly supporter, but Renly was absolutely a douche to Robb and Cat, rightfully so though, Robb was a rebel and he needed to make that clear. Robb keeping the title of "King in the North" would have been meaningless, just like Dorne's princely titles, and the Iron Isles's King of Salt and Rock, meaningless labels for vassals of the Iron Throne. Well then Renly was also a rebel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
of man and wolf Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 ^^ :lol: What a terrible post. Not even going to bother with that shite. Terribly transparent that you either haven't read the books or don't like Stannis. He was actually spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Robb made no war against Stannis, he was fighting the Lannisters for all of the right reasons. I have no problem with Stannis killing Renly. Yes, it was kinslaying but Renly was the userper twit that he was, he got what was coming to him. However, Renly was right about Stannis. "No one wants you for their king". Stannis lacks diplomacy and that is his greatest flaw. No allies and the complete lack of capacity to gain one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noneofyourbusiness Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 And there it is Anyone else feel differently about the North not supporting Stannis after this TWOW preview? No, because Robb didn't have predictive powers or know Stannis's character well enough to anticipate this. All he knew was that Stannis was Robert's rightful heir. Not I necessarily think he should have supported him, mind you. Perhaps things would have turned out better for the North if he had, perhaps not. But something he couldn't have had foreknowledge of shouldn't factor into it retroactively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 *Sigh* Just because Stannis burns Shireen in the show, doesn't mean it will happen in the books. I mean, that quote seems to confirm that Shireen will burn, but it doesn't mean that Stannis is involved (necessarily). Considering the current distance between the two, as well as what we know from the preview TWOW chapter, I would say it is more likely that Shireen is burned without Stannis' permission and/or knowledge. But, if Stannis is involved, I've no doubt that it will be better written than in this episode. Personally, I think having Shireen burnt without his permission/knowledge would be more powerful. Burning Shireen reduces the character to a villain, plain and simple, and Stannis as a character is anything but plain and simple. Far more poetic, in my opinion, is if Melisandre on her own burns Shireen. Because Melisandre (and the other followers of her religion) can, in many ways, be considered the devil on Stannis' shoulder, driving him to do more morally dark deeds (in the name of the greater good). What better (or worse) way to 'punish' that character than by having someone take away his only child in service to that greater good. Stannis with Melisandre has come farther than he (probably) could have without her, so having her kill his daughter would be tragic. And to those who think that is isn't out of character for Stannis to kill his own daughter since he is willing to kill his nephew.... news flash! Stannis is somewhat of a hypocrite. He's a lawful man, except for sometimes. Sometimes he does the right things for the wrong reasons, sometimes he does wrong things with good intentions. It's all part of what makes him such a wonderfully written character. And that's why I don't think he'll be the one to burn Shireen; it's the end of morally complex man, and the beginning of an unlikeable, uncharismatic villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noneofyourbusiness Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 On the other hand, it makes him less selfish in a way if he sacrifices his only heir to the throne, thus ensuring his bloodline won't live on after him, for the sake of saving the world from the Others/White Walkers. It would mean he valued something over his kingliness. So far in books I don't get that impression; things would have to be more desperate to bring him to that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Well then Renly was also a rebel. He was, and so was Stannis. Thing is, Robb was rebelling against what both Renly and Stannis considered their Kingdoms, while for Robb, there is no personal slight in either of the Baratheon brothers rebelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnivora Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'm still not over Robb dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMountianNick Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Just have to love butthurt book snobs. I've read all the books but I guess I'm blessed enough to take the books and show as two different entities. No one is changing your books. Unchanged as far as I can tell. If you can't take the show as a retelling, and see where it goes.... maybe you should stop watching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 TMN, I haven't watched since the end of season 3. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErasmusF Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 This has been talked about at length on a great many topic boards so I'll make this short, Robb was being attacked from the North and South, he had declared himself king of the North AND riverlands (so he can't retreat north completely and leave half his kingdom to be destroyed), he had no significant allies to help him. You can't bank on what happens later in the story like Tywin dying to guarantee Robb the win, and it still wouldn't. At the time of the Red Wedding Robb is in an almost unwinnable situation strategically and politically. I can't speak for what has been "debated" elsewhere. It's not knowable. Here's what Robb has going for him - some of the most strategically defensible locations in Westeros - Winterfell, the Neck, White Harbor, Riverrun, and presumably he is going to get some support from the Lords of the Vale even if Sweetrobin doesn't buy in. He's got more than half of Westeros. That means Tywin needs to take that land back. You're also ignoring other problems in the South. Stannis was not totally defeated. The Tyrells were probably not going to move any further North. They needed to end the siege at Storm's End. The Iron Islands were going to start reaving the Westerlands. The BwB and the chaos in the Saltpans. Tywin had to move to protect his lands, establish order in the Crownlands and Riverlands. And their naval power has been decimated - can't go around to the West for fear of the Iron Islanders and can't take White Harbor. And I think we're going to see what Randyll Tarly is capable of soon, and it's not making Mace Tyrell look good. Yes, Robb's situation meant giving up taking King's Landing for the time being but it by no means left him in an "unwinnable" situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb_Warged Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'm still not over Robb dying. I'm not either. And I never will. Jeyne could be pregnant with Robb's heir, find a great man who Robb would want her to be with, and Robb's baby could lead a great life, the Stark kids could be reunited and have prosperous lives and I will still be made Robb died in book 3/season 3. The Red Wedding is beautifully tragic and orchestrated. It is a marvel. But I won't get over it. It's not even that Robb died, it's that he missed so much of the action by dying early on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
averde Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I can't speak for what has been "debated" elsewhere. It's not knowable. Here's what Robb has going for him - some of the most strategically defensible locations in Westeros - Winterfell, the Neck, White Harbor, Riverrun, and presumably he is going to get some support from the Lords of the Vale even if Sweetrobin doesn't buy in. He's got more than half of Westeros. That means Tywin needs to take that land back. You're also ignoring other problems in the South. Stannis was not totally defeated. The Tyrells were probably not going to move any further North. They needed to end the siege at Storm's End. The Iron Islands were going to start reaving the Westerlands. The BwB and the chaos in the Saltpans. Tywin had to move to protect his lands, establish order in the Crownlands and Riverlands. And their naval power has been decimated - can't go around to the West for fear of the Iron Islanders and can't take White Harbor. And I think we're going to see what Randyll Tarly is capable of soon, and it's not making Mace Tyrell look good. Yes, Robb's situation meant giving up taking King's Landing for the time being but it by no means left him in an "unwinnable" situation. The North is being ravaged by the ironborn, Robb is obligated to take back the North and defend the Riverlands with a grand total of roughly 20,000 men (and at that point there was 0% chance of anyone from the vale joining him), the Tyrells will be sending fresh troops into the Riverlands at that point, which is almost a certainty since in the books we see Tyrell troops that far north, so Robb has to stand and fight the two strongest families in Westeros with drastically fewer men and the Tyrells and Lannisters having no other enemies actively fighting them. Unless Robb is going to abandon the Riverlands, which based on his character isn't very likely, he's screwed.It's said in the books that the Tyrells alone can easily raise and equip double the men of any other great house and the Tyrell army at the time of the books is between 60,000-100,000 when their with Renly and after, just to give you an idea of how badly outnumbered Robb was.This all means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetudo Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Judging that Robb was right for refusing an alliance with Stannis because of future events doesn't make sense. You can't judge someone for something he'll do in the future. Just look at the world recent history. Remember how the USA and Russia made an alliance during WW2, even if Stalin was an asshole, in order to defeat Hitler? Remember the Cold War that occured right after? Following your logic, there would never have been any alliance, and maybe we all would be living in the German empire today. Maybe Stannis is an asshole [still not proven], but even if he really is one, tell me how good Robb did by himself? So yeah, I'm pretty sure that if he could come back in time and choose again, he would choose to follow Stannis, and deal with the consequences later (being alive helps for that, lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Freypie Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 According to the informations he had when he took his decision, I don't think Robb should have backed Stannis (even before knowing anything about him). - at this point he doesn't know about the twincest so Joffrey is still legit, and both Stannis and Renly usurpers. There's nothing like "a little less an usurper than the other", either people are legit either they are not.- he won't make peace with Lannisters, so can only oppose this king- he had 2 valid choices : accepting an alliance / to pledge to the most powerful other ennemy of the Lannisters (who was Renly), or what he did, declaring independance Stannis had no reason to be an option when the choice was made, he hadn't even announced he was running for the crown. If anything it's strange Robb considered him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davos is King Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 "When George first told us about this, it was one of those times that I remember looking at Dan, and going, god, that's so horrible, and it's so good, because it all comes together in a story sense. From the very first time we meet Stannis and Melisandre, they are sacrificing and talking about king's blood, and the power it contains, and it all leads to this, to the sacrificing of Shireen." - David Benioff "This" just seems like they're trying to shift the blame towards GRRM. What is this? Is it Shireen being burned or is it Stannis burning Shireen because frankly the latter doesn't make much sense at the moment. Also Benioff remember your own show. Stannis' first scene is burning effigies of the Seven on Dragonstone not PEOPLE. In the books, only criminals are burnt by Stannis. Edric Storm is an exception and it didn't even come to pass thanks to Davos and the awesome Kingsmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 "This" just seems like they're trying to shift the blame towards GRRM. What is this? Is it Shireen being burned or is it Stannis burning Shireen because frankly the latter doesn't make much sense at the moment. Considering they talk exclusively about Stannis before saying "When George first old us about this", I'd it to be the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracarys Stormborn Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I don't think we can judge Robb on what show!Stannis did. Until Winds comes out, we won't know how book!Stannis handles the Shireen situation. I'm really hoping Mel will do it behind his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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