DireWolfSpirit Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Now that we're in the era of "corporations are people", I can't help but wonder when people will attain the same freedom of movement as we afford things like commodities and consumer goods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Really now. I guess if I suggested sending the women and children into battle too it would have satisfied you more? The point is that safe zones can be created by the UN, Nato, etc for those who are vulnerable. Who stays there and who goes forth to fight is up to the people in question. The Kurds are doing it against Isis. They should be applauded. The Kurds...who have female fighters. And yes, they should be applauded, especially with Turkey a hostile force on the other side of ISIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Turkey is our NATO-friend so we can't tell them off for fighting the Kurds instead of supporting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 The Germans are psychologically scarred by WW2 guilt, to the extent that they are willing to sacrifice their children's future for the sake of paying for their ancestors' sins. They need to wake up from this irrationally perpetuated, never ending guilt trip. Yeah about that. Some clever dude dug up the newspaper clips from the 90s when the war in former Yugoslavia took place. It was all "OMG refugee crisis" and how the Bosnians and the Serbs would be a burden and Ruin Our Way of Life (TM). Turns out the average salary or the former refugees are only a tad below the one the native borns get, and interestingly, children of the refugees have a higher attendance in higher education, meaning the net effect on Sweden was a. lots more taxpaying people b. young people with a higher than average will to get a Proper Education. This whole doomsday thing you have going? Judging by past experiences, you are not only wrong, but dead wrong. Your view of the world is not correct, simply put. Really now. I guess if I suggested sending the women and children into battle too it would have satisfied you more? Again, your world view.... You don't exist in the real world. Suggested reading for you here. Also, really really old news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Yeah about that. Some clever dude dug up the newspaper clips from the 90s when the war in former Yugoslavia took place. It was all "OMG refugee crisis" and how the Bosnians and the Serbs would be a burden and Ruin Our Way of Life (TM). Turns out the average salary or the former refugees are only a tad below the one the native borns get, and interestingly, children of the refugees have a higher attendance in higher education, meaning the net effect on Sweden was a. lots more taxpaying people b. young people with a higher than average will to get a Proper Education. The most interesting thing about Yugoslavs is that when it comes to being refugee, we do it perfectly. I am still to know a Yugoslav who hasn't perfectly adapted to a new environment. It seems that for us is easier to sewer the link with the homeland than to create a new one with another country. I have cousins in Canada, France, Italy, Germany, Russia. Not only that they speak the languages like a native, but they consider themselves as Canadians, French, Italians, Russians. The only comparable thing is how everyone who came to US throughout history, considered themselves an American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Yeah about that. Some clever dude dug up the newspaper clips from the 90s when the war in former Yugoslavia took place. It was all "OMG refugee crisis" and how the Bosnians and the Serbs would be a burden and Ruin Our Way of Life (TM). Turns out the average salary or the former refugees are only a tad below the one the native borns get, and interestingly, children of the refugees have a higher attendance in higher education, meaning the net effect on Sweden was a. lots more taxpaying people b. young people with a higher than average will to get a Proper Education. This whole doomsday thing you have going? Judging by past experiences, you are not only wrong, but dead wrong. Your view of the world is not correct, simply put. Again, your world view.... You don't exist in the real world. Suggested reading for you here. Also, really really old news. This. So much. Combined with Werthead's point about Germany's demographics and our current fiscal situation (we've never been in better shape, really), this is just about the perfect opportunity to rejuvenate our social security systems before the issue becomes so pressing it damages our economy. Integration will still require a lot of effort; but reforming our social security net to the degree necessary without immigration would require at least as much effort - and leave the refugee issue unsolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crixus Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 But, but... how can you settle for *gasp* Muslims? Lol. There is a definite undercurrent (and even obvious stating) of this sentiment in some posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 This. So much. Combined with Werthead's point about Germany's demographics and our current fiscal situation (we've never been in better shape, really), this is just about the perfect opportunity to rejuvenate our social security systems before the issue becomes so pressing it damages our economy. Integration will still require a lot of effort; but reforming our social security net to the degree necessary without immigration would require at least as much effort - and leave the refugee issue unsolved. Indeed. The whole "we can't afford it" and "they're ruining our way of life!" is only alarmist bullshit. This is an organisational problem, not some doomsday scenario. Sure, the state needs to sort out places to live, education and make plans for the people arriving, but both the German state (and the Swedish one) should with a little bit of political clout be able to do this just fine. Sure, the initial rush of refugees is hard to handle in similar ways that it has been in the past, but it will be sorted out, as past experiences have shown. Even better, since there were refugee waves in the 90s, there should be accumulated knowledge regarding what worked and what didn't work which can be applied in a rational fashion. Further, everyone afflicted by lots of fears and alarmist media reports, I can recommend Gapminder. It promotes a fact based worldview. Some basic truths they've shown is that people are often very ignorant about the world, base their world view on facts from 30 something years ago, overestimate threats and dangers and in general are far more pessimistic about the world than they should be. But, but... how can you settle for *gasp* Muslims? Lol. There is a definite undercurrent (and even obvious stating) of this sentiment in some posts. Yep. It's alarmist bullshit perpetuated by media reports. There's a brilliant video of Hans Rosling from Gapminder schooling some Danish journalist in how crap the media is and that they're not at all "showing how the world really is". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Lyanna Stark If my comment created the impression that I am against women fighting for their countries then I apologize, because that was not my intent. What someone managed to do up-thread, was divert the discussion away from my real message - which was that pretty much every country that is peaceful and prosperous today, had to be fought for at some point in the past by its citizens. The issue of women fighting is utterly beside the point. I was merely using the language that the average report on the migrant crisis uses, which tends to focus rather dramatically on the plight of the women and children among the refugees. I don't find it unreasonable at all to provide safe zones for women and children in particular. But I certainly don't mean to suggest that women who wish to engage in combat should be prevented from doing so. So please accept my correction, for the sake of clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 What someone managed to do up-thread, was divert the discussion away from my real message - which was that pretty much every country that is peaceful and prosperous today, had to be fought for at some point in the past by its citizens. Every country has been fought for at some point in the past by its citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 True Metis Indeed. Please expand on your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Excuse me, but I really truly honestly think you are out of your mind. Keep the people in Syria, where bombs and poison gas are dropping on them, where the infrastructure has been laid to waste, where the people are caught between rival factions? And where are these shopkeepers and teachers and lawyers and taxi drivers going to get training against the Syrian army? With what weapons, and by whom? And their families? They are going to leave their families there to be bombed and gassed some more?Following your logic the refugees from Hungary, after trying unsuccessfully to rise up against the Communist regime and then the Russian army, should have been stopped at the borders and told to go back and fight the Russians some more. You wouldn't have let the Vietnamese boat people in either, they should have been shipped back to Nam with guns to keep fighting.I don't disagree with your larger point of this post. But regarding the part I bolded, i'm wondering why you think the refugees would be going up against the Syrian army? NATO just recently pointed out that Bashar Assad still enjoys 70% public support with Syrians and that the rebels have the support of no more than 10% of Syrians. http://newsrescue.com/nato-data-70-syrians-support-assad-only-10-support-foreign-backed-rebel-terrorists/ The majority of these rebels are foreign Sunnis backed with foreign aid. The majority of the refugees are fleeing ISIL not Assad. Western meddling has disastrerously compounded this conflict by trying to destabilize Assad. Most Syrians have been grateful that he's been fighting the terrorists! Again this is what NATO admits not opinion( 70% Syrian support for Assad, 10% support for the terrorist). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 True Metis Indeed. Please expand on your point? People fighting for their country doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be peaceful or prosperous. Quite the opposite in fact since plenty of the people fighting and causing the instability are people fighting for their countries. So "pretty much every country that is peaceful and prosperous today, had to be fought for at some point in the past by its citizens." Is a meaningless statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Lyanna Stark If my comment created the impression that I am against women fighting for their countries then I apologize, because that was not my intent. What someone managed to do up-thread, was divert the discussion away from my real message - which was that pretty much every country that is peaceful and prosperous today, had to be fought for at some point in the past by its citizens. The issue of women fighting is utterly beside the point. I was merely using the language that the average report on the migrant crisis uses, which tends to focus rather dramatically on the plight of the women and children among the refugees. I don't find it unreasonable at all to provide safe zones for women and children in particular. But I certainly don't mean to suggest that women who wish to engage in combat should be prevented from doing so. So please accept my correction, for the sake of clarity. Thank you. :) I am unsure what you mean with that every country that is peaceful and prosperous today has been fought for at some point in the past. I live in a country myself which is very doubtful if it has been "fought over" by its citizens. In that case you end up in discussions like "which territory is our Rightful Territory" and how far back that should go. 100 years? 300 years? 500 years? 1000 years? If you go back more than 300 years, I live in an end of the country that was annexed by a foreign power and its population rather violently subdued. So the question is, did I (or, well, my ancestors) fight for, or against my current country? Logically, my ancestors actually fought *against* the country I live now. Going even further back, it's likely I had some ancestors who fought in current day Germany for, well, reasons of religion or just reasons, and even further back my ancestors probably sacked my husband's ancestors. Which begs the question: which part of all this fighting brought the prosperity and what values did it uphold, if any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 True Metis I accept that. But through those struggles the countries of today emerged. And if my ancestors fought for freedom in my country, I don't feel it is fair that people come from somewhere else to benefit from it, instead of fighting to do the same in their own countries. Freedom ain't free, and so on and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I'm utterly unpersuaded of the relevance of wars fought centuries ago to a modern political crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 True Metis I accept that. But through those struggles the countries of today emerged. And if my ancestors fought for freedom in my country, I don't feel it is fair that people come from somewhere else to benefit from it, instead of fighting to do the same in their own countries. Freedom ain't free, and so on and so forth. Are you a Native American? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 True Metis I accept that. But through those struggles the countries of today emerged. And if my ancestors fought for freedom in my country, I don't feel it is fair that people come from somewhere else to benefit from it, instead of fighting to do the same in their own countries. Freedom ain't free, and so on and so forth. So you deserve that benefit, and they don't. Despite the fact that neither of you have a damn thing to do with that freedom's existence. Uh huh. Hey maybe you should go fight instead. Prove you're worthy of that freedom you seem to care so much about. Honour your ancestors. (My freedom was free BTW, we've fought for other people's freedom. But we got our own by asking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 But, but... how can you settle for *gasp* Muslims? Lol. There is a definite undercurrent (and even obvious stating) of this sentiment in some posts. Muslims will destroy Louvre and all that shit :lmao: I thought the homeless housing was bad, but this definitely takes the prize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 True Metis I accept that. But through those struggles the countries of today emerged. And if my ancestors fought for freedom in my country, I don't feel it is fair that people come from somewhere else to benefit from it, instead of fighting to do the same in their own countries. Freedom ain't free, and so on and so forth. Wow, it's been a while since I've read such a load of crap. You feel you should you get some credit for your ancestors' actions? Based on what? Sharing the last name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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