Ramsay in S6

[Lautrec]

1 minute ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Oh and Sansa getting raped is critical? We can't have a plot unless she gets raped?

I have no idea what you are trying to argue or how we even got to Sansa's rape, which seems to be ultimate conclusion of every single discussion here.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

3 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

I have no idea what you are trying to argue or how we even got to Sansa's rape, which seems to be ultimate conclusion of every single discussion here.

My point is you're arguing that ADWD was just stupid filler well Sansa getting raped and most lyDorne was just stupid filler and worse it was horriblely written which not anything one could say for the filler in ADWD  

[Lautrec]

5 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

My point is you're arguing that ADWD was just stupid filler well Sansa getting raped and most lyDorne was just stupid filler and worse it was horriblely written which not anything one could say for the filler in ADWD  

So? The poor qualities of S5 don't excuse the poor qualities of Dance and Feast. Whether S5 was the best or the worst season of any show in human history, it wouldn't change anything about Dance and Feast being bad.

Also, there is almost nothing inherently bad about the writing of Winterfell in S5. All of the complaints come from an external perspective, not one that is tied to that narrative as a sole arc. People who hate that Sansa was raped hate it because it doesn't happen in the books, not because it doesn't make sense in the show.

[Cas Stark]

I'm sure he will go out like a badass, after having killed Walda and his father and maybe Ghost and saying The North Remembers at least one more time.  Hopefully he fights without a shirt again as that was awesome.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm sure he will go out like a badass, after having killed Walda and his father and maybe Ghost and saying The North Remembers at least one more time.  Hopefully he fights without a shirt again as that was awesome.

From what we have seen of the S6 promo pics and trailer, Ramsay does put on a shirt for battle this time. But only a shirt; no mail, no armor, no helm. I guess nipples get cold when bared to the winter dusting?

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm sure he will go out like a badass, after having killed Walda and his father and maybe Ghost and saying The North Remembers at least one more time.  Hopefully he fights without a shirt again as that was awesome.

Yes, shirtless ninja Ramsay Sue, it will be comedy gold. 

ps: and absolutely nothing made sense in the Winterfell storyline. From Roose wanting his heir to marry a traitor to the crown, to LF delivering his most important asset, to Brienne candle-watching the whole fucking season except, of course, when the candle was lit, to killing Stannis "for the true King Renly lol, to Sansa pouting and saying stupid shit as if that meant she was actually doing something. Utterly stupid, start to finish. 

[The Fattest Leech]

46 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

I was speaking generally about the whole book, not just that one segment. Those two things wouldn't have made it worse by any means, but are ultimately just fluff.

How is uniting the North through the cooperation of several houses both inside and outside of Winterfell just fluff? There is plenty of wit and history and plenty of action that could have been had with this arc on tv. Even if they just had the Freys and the Manderly's inside the castle that would have been great and entertaining as fuck on screen. Having those two houses would have told the story while still maintaining budget and cast. We already have recognizable Freys that could have been there.

Isn't that why Sansa's story was fast forwarded, or diverted, or whatever? If they wanted to bring Sansa "in to the main story", they could have forwarded through some of her Vale arc if needed while keeping the story in tact. That is what the D's & C's job is anyway. We could have seen the tourney on screen (action- 1 episode) and then Sansa's reveal (drama) and then her rallying the Vale troops as she dons her lady armor and moves to Winterfell (last episode- more action and emotional investment and great cliffhanger)... also saving her childhood friend she thought was dead. This is just one example.

I really want Ramsay dead by the end of episode 1. He is a smug, campy, ignorant complainer in the show. He tortures in the books, but most of the mental stress comes from his boys always lurking around and tormenting and mocking Theon, which causes Theon to retreat even further. That is what makes a villain good. The unkown. Is Ramsay here? Is Ramsay looking at me? Is Ramsay going to see me and call me over to him?

It could also be the way IR plays him. I just can't buy it anymore and casting is one of the things the show usually gets right.

[Ser Quork]

1 hour ago, Lautrec said:

I was speaking generally about the whole book, not just that one segment. Those two things wouldn't have made it worse by any means, but are ultimately just fluff.

I very much doubt Wyman Manderly and the Northern Lords' double cross on the Boltons could be described as "fluff" (and I never thought that Frey Pies might be consider "fluff" by any definition).  Of course, I don't have TWOW, but those things you think are fluff I'm convinced will be the turning of the tide against the Boltons.

[Cas Stark]

48 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

So? The poor qualities of S5 don't excuse the poor qualities of Dance and Feast. Whether S5 was the best or the worst season of any show in human history, it wouldn't change anything about Dance and Feast being bad.

Also, there is almost nothing inherently bad about the writing of Winterfell in S5. All of the complaints come from an external perspective, not one that is tied to that narrative as a sole arc. People who hate that Sansa was raped hate it because it doesn't happen in the books, not because it doesn't make sense in the show.

Well, except the complaint that none of the characters actions make sense in the context of the plot as it has been presented in the show.  Other than plot logic, I guess you could say that, although I thought Show Sansa's bizarro behavior was quite strange, one minute pouting the next minute trash talking Ramsay......

[Stannis is the man....nis]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, shirtless ninja Ramsay Sue, it will be comedy gold. 

ps: and absolutely nothing made sense in the Winterfell storyline. From Roose wanting his heir to marry a traitor to the crown, to LF delivering his most important asset, to Brienne candle-watching the whole fucking season except, of course, when the candle was lit, to killing Stannis "for the true King Renly lol, to Sansa pouting and saying stupid shit as if that meant she was actually doing something. Utterly stupid, start to finish. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How is uniting the North through the cooperation of several houses both inside and outside of Winterfell just fluff? There is plenty of wit and history and plenty of action that could have been had with this arc on tv. Even if they just had the Freys and the Manderly's inside the castle that would have been great and entertaining as fuck on screen. Having those two houses would have told the story while still maintaining budget and cast. We already have recognizable Freys that could have been there.

Isn't that why Sansa's story was fast forwarded, or diverted, or whatever? If they wanted to bring Sansa "in to the main story", they could have forwarded through some of her Vale arc if needed while keeping the story in tact. That is what the D's & C's job is anyway. We could have seen the tourney on screen (action- 1 episode) and then Sansa's reveal (drama) and then her rallying the Vale troops as she dons her lady armor and moves to Winterfell (last episode- more action and emotional investment and great cliffhanger)... also saving her childhood friend she thought was dead. This is just one example.

I really want Ramsay dead by the end of episode 1. He is a smug, campy, ignorant complainer in the show. He tortures in the books, but most of the mental stress comes from his boys always lurking around and tormenting and mocking Theon, which causes Theon to retreat even further. That is what makes a villain good. The unkown. Is Ramsay here? Is Ramsay looking at me? Is Ramsay going to see me and call me over to him?

It could also be the way IR plays him. I just can't buy it anymore and casting is one of the things the show usually gets right.

^^^^This^^^^

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 hours ago, Lautrec said:

So? The poor qualities of S5 don't excuse the poor qualities of Dance and Feast. Whether S5 was the best or the worst season of any show in human history, it wouldn't change anything about Dance and Feast being bad.

Also, there is almost nothing inherently bad about the writing of Winterfell in S5. All of the complaints come from an external perspective, not one that is tied to that narrative as a sole arc. People who hate that Sansa was raped hate it because it doesn't happen in the books, not because it doesn't make sense in the show.

Feast and Dance were great imo. In fact ADWD was my second favorite book in the series.

Anyways actually there was a lot of bad in the writing of the Winterfell plot in the show. It doesn't make sense. Sansa decides to go marry Ramsay for poorly defined reasons for example, Ramsay is the protagonist of the Winterfell plot, Sansa's character devolves back into super victim, and Ramsue take 20 good men and burns Stannis' horses and food. How would they even be able to burn all this shit during a blizzard anyways? They would need some super lighter fluid which they don't have.

Stannis goes from not wanting to burn Shireen to doing it the next episode. There wasn't enough build up for it. 

And Stannis' end comes off as a joke. Ramsay's 20 good men burned all your food and your horses, you have to burn your daugher, your wife just hung herself, half your sellsword army just left, Mel abandoned you, the Boltons are attacking, you're wounded and now Brienne's tracked you down with her Stannisdar in a battlefield and forest littered with bodies to take your life with her Valyrian steel sword

[Lord_Ravenstone]

5 hours ago, Khione said:

With the show steadily progressing and outpacing the books, ASOIAF is losing relevance. If TWOW and ADOS aren't out by the time GOT wraps up. and people will still have to keep waiting and waiting and waiting...many will just accept the show's ending and the preceeding storylines (from those non-existing books) and move on. And ASOIAF's fanbase is nothing compared to GOT's. Many book readers have lost or are losing interest in ASOIAF already due to the long wait and the presence of the show which comes out every year. The latest comments from D+D are a courtesy to Martin and the book readers. They add a layer of uncertainty about what's show-only and what's in both, so that the books aren't too spoiled, can still surprise. Now many show detractors don't have an excuse for why they keep watching. That excuse being 'it's impossible to avoid spoilers anyway'. It's ironic because the same people keep saying the show is 'fanfiction'. So if it is, tthere are no spoilers to avoid. Having said that, the ending and key elements will stay the same, some material will be from adwd and affc. 

This is really silly. Did the Lord of the Rings books lose relevance when the movies came out?

Many people watched all the movies before the books. They're still popular.

And 20 years from now there'll be a whole new generation of people who haven't seen the tv show and will just read the books than watch an outdated show.

[Ruhail]

Tell me logically how Sansa (the last known Stark and legitamate heir) choosing to marry into the family that slaughtered and stole the north/winterfell from the Starks avenges her family? It only stregthens the Boltons hold and legitimacy on them by being the wardern's daughter-in law and producing true born bolton-stark heirs because...

[Khione]

The big difference being LOTR trilogy has been out for decades before the movies happened .It had gained cult-like status before the adaptation, so the relevance was not lost. And yet I bet more people have seen the movies than read the books. Literature hasn't been the most popular form of art in many years.

Now we're talking about an ongoing series of books that will never be finished. A series which will never reach the status of LOTR. The show is way more popular and will have an ending, that's all it takes. 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

7 hours ago, Lautrec said:

So? The poor qualities of S5 don't excuse the poor qualities of Dance and Feast. Whether S5 was the best or the worst season of any show in human history, it wouldn't change anything about Dance and Feast being bad.

Also, there is almost nothing inherently bad about the writing of Winterfell in S5. All of the complaints come from an external perspective, not one that is tied to that narrative as a sole arc. People who hate that Sansa was raped hate it because it doesn't happen in the books, not because it doesn't make sense in the show.

No, it doesn't make a lick of sense.  Explain to me, if you will, what was exactly Sansa's plan for revenge that required marrying Ramsay as a critical part of the plan.  I've asked countless show defenders this and not one has come up with a coherent answer representing any kind of a rational plan.

[I Don't Shagwell]

7 hours ago, Lautrec said:

So? The poor qualities of S5 don't excuse the poor qualities of Dance and Feast. Whether S5 was the best or the worst season of any show in human history, it wouldn't change anything about Dance and Feast being bad.

Also, there is almost nothing inherently bad about the writing of Winterfell in S5. All of the complaints come from an external perspective, not one that is tied to that narrative as a sole arc. People who hate that Sansa was raped hate it because it doesn't happen in the books, not because it doesn't make sense in the show.

The speech Littlefinger gives to Sansa, which somehow convinced her to marry Ramsey; is one of the most poorly written and conceived in the show. There is no logic. It's a bunch of sentences with the word revenge thrown in. But how is marrying Ramsey at all vengeful? She loses all power by doing this and the possibility of having a child that would be considered stark over Bolton. It ensures Bolton rule.

After this scene nothing in fucking Winterfell matters to me because it makes NO fucking sense for her to be there. Sansa gets raped? I don't give a shit because it makes no sense for her to be there. D&D didn't shock me. They made me not give a fuck about their Winterfell arc.

Now I've said this before. Rather then try and keep the Littlefinger impression of master manipulator wise guy.. 

just write "sansa marry Ramsey or I'll kill you." 

THAT MAKES SENSE AT LEAST. And it maintains their lazy writing.

thanks.

[*Deidre*]

On 1/21/2016 at 6:11 PM, El Guapo said:

 

He already has his father's acceptance.

 

I don't know about that...it seems like he might, but it seems like Ramsey will never quite measure up. Through no fault of his own.

[Le Cygne]

At some point, listen to the show itself. The show itself is saying Ramsay's hold on Winterhell is weakened because Sansa ran off. In other words, all she did was help them by marrying him. As if that wasn't completely obvious. They even had Myranda tell her this, they were going to get an heir and kill her. Which Sansa already knew, since this storyline was a rehash of her season 1-3 arc, the show was even calling Ramsay the new Joffrey.

[Rhollo]

13 hours ago, Lautrec said:

I was speaking generally about the whole book, not just that one segment. Those two things wouldn't have made it worse by any means, but are ultimately just fluff.

If you see exploring characters, their motivations and their development as fluff, then yeah, Dance and Feast were mostly fluff.

I view that as a requirement to build a good story, otherwise I'm just waching random events, actions of characters I don't know and therefore can't really care, if they succeed or fail.

And that also reduces the impact of the shocks and twists. Shireens burning was shocking, simply because I don't want so see a child being burned alive, but not as a darkening of Stannis' personality. Sansas wedding night was shocking, because I don't want so see someone getting raped, and not because it symbolized her defeat (or at least a backdrop) in claiming power and agency.

[Lautrec]

Holy cow, a lot of replies to make.

 

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How is uniting the North through the cooperation of several houses both inside and outside of Winterfell just fluff? There is plenty of wit and history and plenty of action that could have been had with this arc on tv. Even if they just had the Freys and the Manderly's inside the castle that would have been great and entertaining as fuck on screen. Having those two houses would have told the story while still maintaining budget and cast. We already have recognizable Freys that could have been there.

Isn't that why Sansa's story was fast forwarded, or diverted, or whatever? If they wanted to bring Sansa "in to the main story", they could have forwarded through some of her Vale arc if needed while keeping the story in tact. That is what the D's & C's job is anyway. We could have seen the tourney on screen (action- 1 episode) and then Sansa's reveal (drama) and then her rallying the Vale troops as she dons her lady armor and moves to Winterfell (last episode- more action and emotional investment and great cliffhanger)... also saving her childhood friend she thought was dead. This is just one example.

I really want Ramsay dead by the end of episode 1. He is a smug, campy, ignorant complainer in the show. He tortures in the books, but most of the mental stress comes from his boys always lurking around and tormenting and mocking Theon, which causes Theon to retreat even further. That is what makes a villain good. The unkown. Is Ramsay here? Is Ramsay looking at me? Is Ramsay going to see me and call me over to him?

It could also be the way IR plays him. I just can't buy it anymore and casting is one of the things the show usually gets right.

It's fluff because in the grand scheme of things it's irrelevant, and just another way Martin expands the story without going forward. I know a lot of people enjoy fantasy because it can be sprawling and messy all over the place (like Feast and Dance are), and that's fine, but in the end when he doesn't finish the story you will wish he had rather spent that time on the main plots rather than getting bogged down. I prefer when it's elegant and concise, and adding more and more characters to what is essentially a subplot is not good writing, in my opinion. The first three books are also sprawling, but there was always a charge of momentum that propelled the narrative forward with every (or most) chapters. When he needed to do (again, in my opinion), was maintain that momentum, and stuff like the aforementioned fluff are the exact opposites of that.
Sansa's storyline obviously could have been much better, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Tthe addition of the Vale is in S6.

 

 

14 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

I very much doubt Wyman Manderly and the Northern Lords' double cross on the Boltons could be described as "fluff" (and I never thought that Frey Pies might be consider "fluff" by any definition).  Of course, I don't have TWOW, but those things you think are fluff I'm convinced will be the turning of the tide against the Boltons.

See the post above for my response.

 

14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, except the complaint that none of the characters actions make sense in the context of the plot as it has been presented in the show.  Other than plot logic, I guess you could say that, although I thought Show Sansa's bizarro behavior was quite strange, one minute pouting the next minute trash talking Ramsay......

I think everyone is operating under the assumption that Littlefinger cares deeply about Sansa, which is completely not true, I think. He cares about her like one would care about an investment or a means to an end, not as a person. So when he risks her life everyone is stumped. The only person Littlefinger cares about is himself, and Sansa's realization of this will be his downfall. Roose accepted the marriage because, in his own words, he no longer cares about the Lannisters. The only person in King's Landing who wants Sansa dead is Cersei, and she is neither Queen nor Regent.

 

11 hours ago, Ruhail said:

Tell me logically how Sansa (the last known Stark and legitamate heir) choosing to marry into the family that slaughtered and stole the north/winterfell from the Starks avenges her family? It only stregthens the Boltons hold and legitimacy on them by being the wardern's daughter-in law and producing true born bolton-stark heirs because...

It doesn't. Littlefinger basically forced her into it. He cares that she is there so he has a justification to invade.

 

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, shirtless ninja Ramsay Sue, it will be comedy gold. 

ps: and absolutely nothing made sense in the Winterfell storyline. From Roose wanting his heir to marry a traitor to the crown, to LF delivering his most important asset, to Brienne candle-watching the whole fucking season except, of course, when the candle was lit, to killing Stannis "for the true King Renly lol, to Sansa pouting and saying stupid shit as if that meant she was actually doing something. Utterly stupid, start to finish. 

Brienne appears in six out of the ten S5 episodes (1,2,3,5,7,10). She makes the candle plan in episode 5, and watches for it in episode 7. So, how exactly does she watch for it the whole season? I think the collective cognitive dissonance in the Rant thread has warped your memory of S5. 
She believed Renly was the rightful king. I don't know what "stupid shit" you are referring to.
I made a response to the other complaints in my above posts.

 

11 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Feast and Dance were great imo. In fact ADWD was my second favorite book in the series.

Anyways actually there was a lot of bad in the writing of the Winterfell plot in the show. It doesn't make sense. Sansa decides to go marry Ramsay for poorly defined reasons for example, Ramsay is the protagonist of the Winterfell plot, Sansa's character devolves back into super victim, and Ramsue take 20 good men and burns Stannis' horses and food. How would they even be able to burn all this shit during a blizzard anyways? They would need some super lighter fluid which they don't have.

Stannis goes from not wanting to burn Shireen to doing it the next episode. There wasn't enough build up for it. 

And Stannis' end comes off as a joke. Ramsay's 20 good men burned all your food and your horses, you have to burn your daugher, your wife just hung herself, half your sellsword army just left, Mel abandoned you, the Boltons are attacking, you're wounded and now Brienne's tracked you down with her Stannisdar in a battlefield and forest littered with bodies to take your life with her Valyrian steel sword

I completely disagree about them being great. I enjoyed them, but they have so many fundamental problems that I wouldn't even call them good books, let alone great. But to each his own.

It is possible to start fires in cold environments.

I agree, there wasn't enough build up for Shireen's death.

I don't see how it's a joke. He lost everything. It's tragic.

 

8 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

No, it doesn't make a lick of sense.  Explain to me, if you will, what was exactly Sansa's plan for revenge that required marrying Ramsay as a critical part of the plan.  I've asked countless show defenders this and not one has come up with a coherent answer representing any kind of a rational plan.

She didn't have a plan, because she didn't think, nor was given a chance to. Littlefinger told her about the marriage not in the Vale, but at Moat Cailin. She agreed because she trusts Littlefinger. Her marrying Ramsay is critical to Littlefinger, not her. In S6 I imagine she will turn on him, and Littlefinger's plan will fail.

 

7 hours ago, I Don't Shagwell said:

The speech Littlefinger gives to Sansa, which somehow convinced her to marry Ramsey; is one of the most poorly written and conceived in the show. There is no logic. It's a bunch of sentences with the word revenge thrown in. But how is marrying Ramsey at all vengeful? She loses all power by doing this and the possibility of having a child that would be considered stark over Bolton. It ensures Bolton rule.

After this scene nothing in fucking Winterfell matters to me because it makes NO fucking sense for her to be there. Sansa gets raped? I don't give a shit because it makes no sense for her to be there. D&D didn't shock me. They made me not give a fuck about their Winterfell arc.

Now I've said this before. Rather then try and keep the Littlefinger impression of master manipulator wise guy.. 

just write "sansa marry Ramsey or I'll kill you." 

THAT MAKES SENSE AT LEAST. And it maintains their lazy writing.

thanks.

Fair enough.

 

2 hours ago, Rhollo said:

If you see exploring characters, their motivations and their development as fluff, then yeah, Dance and Feast were mostly fluff.

I view that as a requirement to build a good story, otherwise I'm just waching random events, actions of characters I don't know and therefore can't really care, if they succeed or fail.

And that also reduces the impact of the shocks and twists. Shireens burning was shocking, simply because I don't want so see a child being burned alive, but not as a darkening of Stannis' personality. Sansas wedding night was shocking, because I don't want so see someone getting raped, and not because it symbolized her defeat (or at least a backdrop) in claiming power and agency.

Don't mistake filler for character development. I am reminded of the Walking Dead, where every second episode is pointless, meandering, boring, dumb filler, but it is defended under the guise of "character development". No, a character doing the exact same thing every chapter (like Daenerys and Tyrion) isn't character development.

In the first three books Martin managed to develop characters at a much higher quality level than in Feast and Dance, and at the same time develop the world and never stop the plot. 

Shireen being burned on the show was obviously about Stannis as a character, and not her. I still don't see why people call Sansa's rape shocking. Isn't surprise a requirement for something to be shocking?