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Why was Storm's End given to Renly and not Stannis? 

This really pisses off Stannis, and I'm trying to understand why as the elder of the two younger brothers, he isn't given Storm's End, AFTER he has already secured Dragonstone. Are we given any background as to why Robert disliked Stannis (other than his stiffness, dullness and lack of humor)? Or why Robert preferred Renly?

"And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm's End," Cersei said thoughtfully. "The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights . . . If you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter." 

"He took it as a slight." (Tyrion's reply)
"It was meant as a slight," Cersei said.

aCoK 

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3 hours ago, Wolfkin said:

Why was Storm's End given to Renly and not Stannis? 

This really pisses off Stannis, and I'm trying to understand why as the elder of the two younger brothers, he isn't given Storm's End, AFTER he has already secured Dragonstone. Are we given any background as to why Robert disliked Stannis (other than his stiffness, dullness and lack of humor)? Or why Robert preferred Renly?

"And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm's End," Cersei said thoughtfully. "The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights . . . If you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter." 

"He took it as a slight." (Tyrion's reply)
"It was meant as a slight," Cersei said.

aCoK 

Between 1) story convenience, 2) the fact that Stannis was Robert's heir at the time, and 3) they (the fief of Dragonstone) were likely still rebellious and Stannis would hold them in line... it was actually a good idea.

The Storm Lords were WAY more loyal to Robert and/or the Baratheon's, so it made a manner of sense.

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8 hours ago, Yaya said:

 

@Rhaenys_Targaryen THANKS for the reply/info also/again - I will shre any of my analysis here :read:

One more thing with regards to THK timeline. The year the story takes place is the same as the year the Great Spring Sickness began and Daeron II died. Dunk and Egg were in Dorne at the time, so THK must have taken place before the start of the sickness in order for them to have travelled from Ashford to Dorne.

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8 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

Does the Mystery Knight not take place in 212 AC? I know the Worldbook states 211, but as you pointed put earlier, there are some issues with the "16 years after the Blackfyre Rebellion" line.

Yeah, the text imo indicates that the story takes place in 212 AC. There are several quotes stating that it has been 16 years since the rebellion ended:

Sixteen years ago, a bastard son of King Aegon IV named Daemon Blackfyre had risen in revolt against his trueborn brother

 

By that time Lord Peake and John the Fiddler and their party were no more than a plume of red dust in the distance. It was sixteen years ago. The Pretender died, and those who followed him were exiled or forgiven. Anyway, it has nought to do with me.

 

"What, all of them?" Dunk shook his head. "If it was true, that was a long time ago. The Black Dragon's dead, and those who fought with him are fled or pardoned. And it's not true. Lord Butterwell's sons fought on both sides."

"That makes him half a traitor, ser."

"Sixteen years ago." 


As well, we are given the clue that TMK takes place early in the year, as Lord Frey tells us this:

"Lady Butterwell, the maiden brick, my darling daughter. May the Mother make her fertile." Frey gave the girl a smile. "I shall want a grandson before the year is out. Twins would suit me even better, so churn the butter well tonight, my sweet."

Unless he is expressing an unrealistic expectation here, or is overstating it, the impression is given that there are at least still 9 months left in the year.

 

With the rebellion having ended sixteen years ago, and having ended in 196 AC (and late in the year, as the war began in 196 AC as well and lasted "night on a year"), "sixteen years ago" brings us to 212 AC. Although you could argue that someone might describe the timing of the war's end in early 213 AC as having been "sixteen years ago", at no point in 211 AC such a description should apply.

 

And yet, TWOIAF places the story in 211 AC (specifically stating it), so that is the year we must currently place it in.

Perhaps @Ran has had a chance to mention the issue to GRRM for newer TWOIAF prints? 

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26 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

And yet, TWOIAF places the story in 211 AC (specifically stating it), so that is the year we must currently place it in.

Not sure about that. Was it not mentioned that the stories trump the history books?

By the way, I think the starting date for the rebellion could be an error as well. For years people (even Ran himself) thought the rebellion started in 195 AC, and the "If it was truly all for the love of Daenerys, how is it that eight years passed before the rebellion bloomed?" line seems to support this assumption. 

I think the easiest way to solve the issues would be to place the start of the First Blackfyre Rebellion in 195, the Redgrassfield in 196, the Sword Sword in 211 and the Mystery Knight in 212.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

212 AC should have been the date, and ought to have been corrected a good long while ago.

Thanks for that one. Do you have any insights one the 195 AC date for the First Blackfyre Rebellion? Why did people assume it started then so long and where did the 196 date come from?

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On 1/12/2019 at 12:10 AM, The Map Guy said:

All we know is he disappeared while ranging and he ended up with the CotF. If he went to them intentionally, that would be deserting anyways.

My theory involves him ranging alone and deserting, OR he was with a group of NW, and sneaked out.

What do we know about him so far from his history? He has a high IQ, he is vengeful, and he has the capacity to lie and bait.

His high IQ would not let him openly tell his NW brothers that he is intentionally deserting.

Sounds like a party, i hope 40k skeletons has some Bodies to bring to the party!
......eh bad joke, joke only works with one skeleton

Thanks, love you too!

Here is a food for thought.

While Bran, Meera, Jojen, and Hodor is in that sunless cave of Bloodravens, where do they get their hefty meals from? More importantly, where do all the onions come from without sunlight?

My theory is that Craster is Bloodraven's son, and their plan was to bait Bran and the gang to them. Craster's Keep is where you can find onions. BOOM BOOM BOOM!

@kissdbyfire @The Fattest Leech

Nice to meet you @The Map Guy :cheers:

Although I have been lately slowed down by a chaotic work life (I program robots and it takes lots of mental energy), I have been quietly pressing onward with my new analysis of asoiaf and learning so much my friends. For instance, I used to be quite confident, as some people are aware, that LF poisoned Tyrion's pie at PW. However, I now believe that both the pie AND the wine were poisoned, and that Varys was responsible for the wine! Joffrey got double poisoned! I'll explain later ;) 

For now, Bloodraven. I view asoiaf basically like a giant 2-level conspiracy. At the surface level of the story, you have the wannabe players/POV characters who you even might think are being smart on a first read but actually they are super dumb, like Ned, TYRION, Cat, Robb, Cersei, Sansa, even Tywin. Then you have the 1st tier of conspiracies which includes the characters I deem the "real" players: Varys, LF, Doran, Euron, the maesters/Hightowers/Faith (excluding Marwin/Qyburn who appear to be on team Doran), and I would argue also Stannis and Mance. And then finally, you have the 2nd tier of the GRRM conspiracy, which is that the Old Gods themselves are the ones manipulating all the real players. Side note, notice that Varys was cut, LF almost died from his duel with Brandon, Doran is crippled from gout, Euron is presumably blind in one eye, and Mance almost died from a (skinchanged?) shadowcat, meaning the "third eyes" of all these people are potentially open, at least wider than the average person, like after Bran is crippled and almost dies (having that crazy coma dream where he opens his third eye) and later being in darkness to enhance his abilities. And having your third eye open means the Old Gods can communicate with you and manipulate you, says me.

So what is BR's role in all this? He too was a direct pawn of the Old Gods it seems, and obviously he ultimately joined the weirnet, literally becoming part of the Old Gods. BR famously lost an eye and presumably had his third eye fully opened at that point. Your telepathy potential is also probably affected by your genes, and BR got the right genes either through one of his parents or a combo, further implied by his albinism (mentioned explicitly by Jojen as being indicative of potential greenseer blood among the COTF). While BR was in KL, I think his main purpose was to rig the line of succession (via murder) and put the 4th son of a 4th son, Aegon the UNLIKELY, on the throne so that ultimately he could marry a Blackwood and then more incest and the COTF who came with Jenny and then Summerhall and stuff. I'm being concise :) 

After leaving KL, I think his main purposes were to start Craster's Other-producing factory and then join the weirnet (which is actually tragic and awful and you def shouldn't do it bro) and get Bran to do the same. I think adding another greenseer to the weirnet makes it more powerful, and ultimately I think the goal of the real bad guys (the Old Gods) is to absorb Bran's power of human mental enslavement (demonstrated via Hodor) which is literally the worst most evil thing you could ever do to another person and they are gonna use that newly acquired super-power to ensure that no weirwoods are ever killed again.

So when I question specifically what happened to BR when he was at the Wall, I assume that he was getting periodic Jojen-style green dreams and felt he had to fulfill/obey them, even though it is totally a bad idea and everybody should listen to Meera who is super smart and questions the veracity of the evil green dreams! Go Meera! I think you are gonna die Meera! Anyways, BR probably produced Craster who then proceeded to have more children with his own mother, then sisters, then eventually daughters, sacrificing the sons along the way. BR presumably then went to his cave, where he completed his greenseer training (as Bran is currently doing) and joined the weirnet. And now I believe he has lost control of his own consciousness and dead body and is trapped in a permanent Hell (until Arya and Chekhov's wolf pack destroy it because valar morghulis motherfuckers), and the "Old Gods" are now utilizing his corpse to lure in Bran as well.

:cheers:

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Welcome back, @40 Thousand Skeletons, always nice to see you! :cheers:

As you can probably guess, I wholeheartedly disagree w/ everything you said. :P

Well, apart from the programming robots bit, b/c that is super cool and I agree it must demand tons of mental energy. :)

 

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15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Welcome back, @40 Thousand Skeletons, always nice to see you! :cheers:

As you can probably guess, I wholeheartedly disagree w/ everything you said. :P

Well, apart from the programming robots bit, b/c that is super cool and I agree it must demand tons of mental energy. :)

:D 

What is your general opinion on Bran joining the weirnet? Should he do it? Will he? What do you think GRRM wants Bran to do?

And just to be clear, I do believe it is possible that I am wrong and that the weirnet is some sort of heavenly paradise in which the memories and consciousnesses of thousands of people are blended together without filters or separation, as described in A Song For Lya, but even in that story the truth is ambiguous, and we never learn if the Greeshka is heaven or hell, benevolent beseecher or Machiavellian manipulator. I think the weirnet is the same... at least until book 7.

But as I have previously described, I'm pretty sure GRRM is reusing the plot of Unsound Variations. The Old Gods have been using time travel to cheat at the game of thrones and do shit like: Oh no, Jon Snow aka the soon-to-be messiah got his horse shot by Ygritte and the wildlings killed him. Alright, rewind. This time try skinchanging into the horse to change its path slightly... Yes! Jon Snow Christ got hit in the leg, saving his horse and himself! Perfect, 'ctrl+s' that shit, save it and move on to the next mistake.

So... Long story short I think joining the weirnet is a trick and Bran will be faced with an ultimate choice between love (not joining the weirnet) and selfishness/hate (joining the weirnet). I'm pretty sure... :dunno:

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21 hours ago, Ran said:

212 AC should have been the date, and ought to have been corrected a good long while ago.

Follow-up question: Does this impact the date of the founding of the Golden Company? Is this still 212 AC, or has thus subsequently been moved to 213 AC, in order to still take place one year after Daemon II's failed attempt to claim the throne?

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On 1/21/2019 at 3:35 AM, Wolfkin said:

Why was Storm's End given to Renly and not Stannis? 

This really pisses off Stannis,

We should consider three things in regards to Storm's End

  • What Stannis thinks of it
  • What Robert thinks of it
  • How its titles and incomes objectively compares to the Lordship of the Narrow Sea Islands

What Stannis thinks of it

Well clearly Stannis thinks it the bigger prize, the primary reasons being it's ancestral status for the Baratheons and the ability to raise more land troops than he's capable of on Dragonstone in his bid to win the Iron Throne. The second reason is not something Robert will have considered given he expected both brothers to remain loyal to his sons.

What Robert thinks of it

Robert was raised in the Vale, even when becoming Lord of the Stormlands seems to have spent much of his time with Arryn or tourneys. Storm's End may not be some great prize to Robert, he may well consider Dragonstone every much its equal or maybe even superior given its Targaryen association. 

How it titles and incomes objectively compares to the Lordship of the Narrow Sea Islands

These are very different seats, but the Lordship of the Narrow Sea Islands, when managed right, should be far wealthier than the Lord of the Stormlands. 

And Stannis being made the Master of Ships and the Velaryons as his vassals hints at a regular seat on the small council for his descendents. 

Storm's End has the edge in land and troops, Dragonstone in wealth and influence. 

Lastly, Robert may not have been thinking of their feelings but what was in the realms best interests.  Renly was charismatic and better use to rebuild relations between the Crown and the former Targ loyalists in the Stormlands, Reach and Dorne. Stannis' abrasive personality may have complicated matters.  Renly was the carrot. 

Stannis was needed to keep the most hardcore Targ loyalists in line, houses Robert would never trust. Stannis was the stick.

Quote

"And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm's End," Cersei said thoughtfully. "The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights . . . If you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter." 

"He took it as a slight." (Tyrion's reply)
"It was meant as a slight," Cersei said.

aCoK 

That's just hoe Cersei thinks though. The 30 something Cersei is bitter and vindictive, she'd assume it was a slight. I suspect 21 year old Robert didn't really think of Stannis or Renly in that way nor would he assume that Stannis, entitled to nothing, would years later complain about it. 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity. - GRRM

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Thank you for the reply @Bernie Mac - I'm sorry, I don't know how to tag you. 

I like your explanation. It makes good sense. I just wondered if Cersei knew something (or had mentioned something someplace else in the story) that I hadn't picked up on. 

Another question laid to rest :)

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On 1/22/2019 at 10:45 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

@kissdbyfire @The Fattest Leech

Nice to meet you @The Map Guy :cheers:

Although I have been lately slowed down by a chaotic work life (I program robots and it takes lots of mental energy), I have been quietly pressing onward with my new analysis of asoiaf and learning so much my friends. For instance, I used to be quite confident, as some people are aware, that LF poisoned Tyrion's pie at PW. However, I now believe that both the pie AND the wine were poisoned, and that Varys was responsible for the wine! Joffrey got double poisoned! I'll explain later ;) 

For now, Bloodraven. I view asoiaf basically like a giant 2-level conspiracy. At the surface level of the story, you have the wannabe players/POV characters who you even might think are being smart on a first read but actually they are super dumb, like Ned, TYRION, Cat, Robb, Cersei, Sansa, even Tywin. Then you have the 1st tier of conspiracies which includes the characters I deem the "real" players: Varys, LF, Doran, Euron, the maesters/Hightowers/Faith (excluding Marwin/Qyburn who appear to be on team Doran), and I would argue also Stannis and Mance. And then finally, you have the 2nd tier of the GRRM conspiracy, which is that the Old Gods themselves are the ones manipulating all the real players. Side note, notice that Varys was cut, LF almost died from his duel with Brandon, Doran is crippled from gout, Euron is presumably blind in one eye, and Mance almost died from a (skinchanged?) shadowcat, meaning the "third eyes" of all these people are potentially open, at least wider than the average person, like after Bran is crippled and almost dies (having that crazy coma dream where he opens his third eye) and later being in darkness to enhance his abilities. And having your third eye open means the Old Gods can communicate with you and manipulate you, says me.

So what is BR's role in all this? He too was a direct pawn of the Old Gods it seems, and obviously he ultimately joined the weirnet, literally becoming part of the Old Gods. BR famously lost an eye and presumably had his third eye fully opened at that point. Your telepathy potential is also probably affected by your genes, and BR got the right genes either through one of his parents or a combo, further implied by his albinism (mentioned explicitly by Jojen as being indicative of potential greenseer blood among the COTF). While BR was in KL, I think his main purpose was to rig the line of succession (via murder) and put the 4th son of a 4th son, Aegon the UNLIKELY, on the throne so that ultimately he could marry a Blackwood and then more incest and the COTF who came with Jenny and then Summerhall and stuff. I'm being concise :) 

After leaving KL, I think his main purposes were to start Craster's Other-producing factory and then join the weirnet (which is actually tragic and awful and you def shouldn't do it bro) and get Bran to do the same. I think adding another greenseer to the weirnet makes it more powerful, and ultimately I think the goal of the real bad guys (the Old Gods) is to absorb Bran's power of human mental enslavement (demonstrated via Hodor) which is literally the worst most evil thing you could ever do to another person and they are gonna use that newly acquired super-power to ensure that no weirwoods are ever killed again.

So when I question specifically what happened to BR when he was at the Wall, I assume that he was getting periodic Jojen-style green dreams and felt he had to fulfill/obey them, even though it is totally a bad idea and everybody should listen to Meera who is super smart and questions the veracity of the evil green dreams! Go Meera! I think you are gonna die Meera! Anyways, BR probably produced Craster who then proceeded to have more children with his own mother, then sisters, then eventually daughters, sacrificing the sons along the way. BR presumably then went to his cave, where he completed his greenseer training (as Bran is currently doing) and joined the weirnet. And now I believe he has lost control of his own consciousness and dead body and is trapped in a permanent Hell (until Arya and Chekhov's wolf pack destroy it because valar morghulis motherfuckers), and the "Old Gods" are now utilizing his corpse to lure in Bran as well.

:cheers:

Howdy 40K Skeletons!

40K skeletons & programming robots ... are you making an army of Terminators? If you do please don't forget to program the remote's easy-access shutdown button, we don't want a Judgment Day now do we? Well, it would be nice to see Arnold back in action again.

And wow o wow to your wild theories. I do agree with some bits of it. Well maybe just two.

On the 1st read of Bran's ADWD chapters, its just a gang on a hard journey to see an old man with special powers.
On the re-read of Bran's ADWD chapters, its about Bran being dumb. The POV chapters are from the perspective of a child being lured into a trap.

THINK ABOUT IT. How would Bran tapping into the weirwood net help the humans against the Others? If Bran discovers R+L=J from weirwood net, how does that help Jon fight against the Others? The humans are already ready. We have Daenerys controlling THREE DRAGONS. Westeros will learn about the importance of dragonglass real soon, and they have an abundance at Dragonstone. Seriously, what can Broodraven and Bran do as good guys to help the cause, while being surrounded by wights? Nothing. Its because Bran's ADWD plot is about the gang being deceived by a bad guy.

Bloodraven wants the gang for several reasons, so with the help of Coldhands they staged a incredibly tough, cold, starving journey to his cave.
Just before they get inside, they were attacked by wights ... but that was the part of the deception.

Once inside, they are given a false sense of security with the wights having a siege outside, but cannot enter. They are given warm meals everyday, but they do not know that the food is supplied by Craster (Bloodraven's son) with the help of the Others & wights. They are unaware that they are hostages.

I'm not sure if you were around when I posted "Top Secret Theory". But I believe GRRM is basing Bloodraven on a certain villain from a movie because he was "hooded" when he was younger, and now he has a "yellowed skull." In this movie, this villain teamed up with another villain who may be the inspiration of the Others. Together, the villains & their minions lured the good guys of the movie into a trap by disguising themselves as ....... chefs!

So I think the evidence that Bloodraven & Craster (serving the Others) are bad guys is the secret ingredient in the stew they make for Bran, Meera, Jojen & Hodor ... its the onions that do not belong in the sunless cave that is besieged by wights. Thus, GRRM created Davos, our onion smuggler, to foreshadow this clue, this "secret" ingredient.

Also, the big deal about Craster being Bloodraven's son is that Gilly's baby has kings-blood. After the baby-swap, guess whose death will pay for Jon's revived life in TWOW?

I think Bloodraven is programming Bran to develop greenseer powers and it takes a lot of mental energy. Afterwards, Bloodraven will warg into Bran's younger body, a body that can re-warg and green-see. This is all foreshadowed in the ADWD Prologue with Varamyr-A.

Oh yea, my core theories involves Meera being a big deal in ADOS.

Edited by The Map Guy

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8 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

#theoryguard

Believe it or not, some of the Theoryguards don't even believe in R+L=J&M ... which is fine. I have no problem with that.

They also don't believe some of my Stan Ly references. Why else would Bran's direwolf be named Summer?
 

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