How do some people honestly think Ramsay wrote the pink letter?

[Nevets]

6 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

um not at all. people here have stated it 1000 times about the "lacking knowledge" in camp stannis he has people who have been around ramsay forever. and motive etc are you trolling? you really should read the manifesto or go look at the huge hint an grin grrm already did

 

if we the op first post and all theones by sweetsunray and others and still cant understand it then I cant help you........ there is tons of motive for stannis. tons

 

why would he change his hand writing now? with all the torture he has done why would he not send any body parts as usual? why no house bolton seal?........ but its written in pink ink.....oh who has pink ink? maester tybald, a prisoner of stannis wtc, and that isnt even in the top 100 obvious reasons

 

why would he use the word whore? he never uses the word ever in the books, but guess who says it ALL THE TIME theon. you guys should read through first few pages

I actually read the thread when it first came out.  I just now reread the first few pages,, and I tend to agree with kimim and butterbumps1 that Ramsay wrote it.

Why would Stannis write it?  Nobody who reads something like that is going to turn over hostages.  He isn't going to get any reinforcements from CB because, as far as he knows, there aren't any (no way to know about Tormund).  Plus it would take forever for them to arrive, and anyway, Jon wouldn't be going to Winterfell because, according to the letter, neither Ramsay nor Arya is actually there.  Both are on their way to CB.  As for trying to convince everyone that he''s dead, or if it is a code for Mel, better to have a message from one of his captains saying, "All is lost.  Get Mel and the family out of there now.!"  Mel would definitely see it then, and the letter would be convincing.

Similar problems for Mance.  No way to know about reinforcements, and CB is too far away.  Plus he has no way to send a message.

While the stylistic issues lead to the conclusion that the letter might be a forgery, they do not mandate such a conclusion.

No seal :  It is his father's seal, not his.  Dad may not be around.  He also might be in the field.  Being in the field could also account for the lack of other signatures.  As could the possibility that he is hiding information from his allies (like the disappearance of "Arya").

That's all I have time for now.

[Jadakiss]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

I actually read the thread when it first came out.  I just now reread the first few pages,, and I tend to agree with kimim and butterbumps1 that Ramsay wrote it.

Why would Stannis write it?  Nobody who reads something like that is going to turn over hostages.  He isn't going to get any reinforcements from CB because, as far as he knows, there aren't any (no way to know about Tormund).  Plus it would take forever for them to arrive, and anyway, Jon wouldn't be going to Winterfell because, according to the letter, neither Ramsay nor Arya is actually there.  Both are on their way to CB.  As for trying to convince everyone that he''s dead, or if it is a code for Mel, better to have a message from one of his captains saying, "All is lost.  Get Mel and the family out of there now.!"  Mel would definitely see it then, and the letter would be convincing.

Similar problems for Mance.  No way to know about reinforcements, and CB is too far away.  Plus he has no way to send a message.

While the stylistic issues lead to the conclusion that the letter might be a forgery, they do not mandate such a conclusion.

No seal :  It is his father's seal, not his.  Dad may not be around.  He also might be in the field.  Being in the field could also account for the lack of other signatures.  As could the possibility that he is hiding information from his allies (like the disappearance of "Arya").

That's all I have time for now.

 

If you dont see the benefits of stannis writing it I canthelp you. its more then just faking his death and keeping people off guard. you should read cantuses stannis manifesto, not being rude but you are very very far off on tons of things, there is about 10 reasons why stannis would do that.

 

Grrm is smart and knows his own characters he knows there mannerisms. Ramsay hates the word bastard hates it! he would not use that word.... he also never uses the word "whore" dont you find it odd the letter says whore, oh and hey who says whore more then anyone else in the book by a mile? Theon..

 

and the no seal? wtf does his dad being around matter? his dad wasnt around the other times and yet they had the house seal, all he would need would be a maester. and again if he had all these prisoners its insane to think he wouldnt be sending body parts or writing in blood. grrm remembers his characters wisely, when it comes to the words they say, you are just missing all the clues.

2+2 shouldn't be super hard, he just tells Massey he may be dead etc, then sure enough a letter pops up saying he is dead. Every part of that latter is info stannis would have, from his time at castle black, to his time with Theon....... theon tells stannis "he wants his reek back"..... sure enough the letter says "I want my reek back". Cant stress how key that is alog the lines of jon having no clue who reek is

You dont find it odd that the words are words he never uses? Also Jon as no idea who reek is so why would ramsay say reek? think about it....... dont you realize the letter is written in pink ink, dread fort ink, who is his prisoner? dreadfort maester....

 

the letter looking like from ramsay is the twist he always does and wants people to think, its just been so many years that people have put it together and debunked it

[Hodor the Articulate]

3 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

Grrm is smart and knows his own characters he knows there mannerisms. Ramsay hates the word bastard hates it! he would not use that word.... he also never uses the word "whore" dont you find it odd the letter says whore, oh and hey who says whore more then anyone else in the book by a mile? Theon..

Ramsay doesn't hate the word "bastard", he hates people calling him a bastard. Never seeing him say "whore" is pretty weak evidence as well. It doesn't seem out of character for him to use the word. I mean, it's not like he has some great respect for women.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Because it does not require all the reaching speculations that the other scenarios do?

(Occam's razor)

[The Sleeper]

The letter has been explained by Buried Treasure. It is a blackmail about an exchange of secrets. Ramsay believes that Jon is in possession of Jeyne and is in position to expose the deception. So he threatens to do the same with Mance and paint him as a liar. Of course, Jon, not having seen Jeyne, has no clue what he is talking about. There  several implications anf inferrences that can be made, but that is the heart of it.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Ramsay doesn't hate the word "bastard", he hates people calling him a bastard. Never seeing him say "whore" is pretty weak evidence as well. It doesn't seem out of character for him to use the word. I mean, it's not like he has some great respect for women.

Exactly because Ramsay in truth doesn't feel an ounce of respect to women, hunts, rapes and flays them and yet he names his dogs after the women and never uses the word "whore" is what is so striking. Ramsay would call them "bitches" perhaps, but he does not call them whores. There's even an understandable reason for it: if he calls women whores, then his mother was a whore as well.

Giving characters their own "voice", their own speech mannerisms is something George excells in. When he has a character avoid a certain word in their personal choice of vocabulary, while someone else uses it all the time and has it as his top n1 word of choice for women in general then yes that is literary evidence. It's "how to write realistic dialogue 101". I'm pretty sure George has a character file including "speech patterns" and top 5 favourite words for main and supporting characters.

Ramsay would not suddenly start to use a word several times that he has not been known to use in his own letter. In a literary sense that is OOC, and George is not going to make a mistake like that.People trying to impersonate Ramsay would use the language they think Ramsay would use (on account of him liking to hunt, murder and flay women), but is actually closer to their own personal voice. Again that's "dialogue 101" as for example beginning authors tend to write characters using the author's language, instead of having the characters a unique voice.

[Jadakiss]

8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Ramsay doesn't hate the word "bastard", he hates people calling him a bastard. Never seeing him say "whore" is pretty weak evidence as well. It doesn't seem out of character for him to use the word. I mean, it's not like he has some great respect for women.

grrm knows his own mannerisms. yes ramsay does hate the word bastard. and the word whore is used by theon the most, and guess who is in stannis camp? Theon... he is leaving clues left and right and some cant see it

 

Ramsay doesnt use the word whore because his mom was a whore, didnt roose tell him that? even tho she wasnt?

 

I can say with 100000% the OP, myself and others are right, I cant tell how and why I know, but I do know and thats what matters, cant make a horse drink so not going to respond anymore, tried my best

[The Drunkard]

21 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

if we the op first post and all theones by sweetsunray and others and still cant understand it then I cant help you........ there is tons of motive for stannis. tons

Nothing that makes sense. He's a thousand miles away from Castle Black and months of travel, and as far as he knows the only reinforcements he can expect are 300 wildlings. 300 poorly equipped and poorly disciplined soldiers aren't going to turn the tide of battle and certainly aren't worth the wait, even if he had the supplies and morale to wait that long. Nor does he have the time or supplies send his forces marching hundreds of miles around the North to the Dreadfort, and nor is he going to trust Theon with taking the Dreadfort or wording the Pink Letter given he's a demonstrably untrustworthy servant (which Stannis is completely clear on). And given how many men and horses Stannis was losing when he tried to plow through the storm, he's not about to march an even greater distance, past Winterfell and back again.

14 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

grrm knows his own mannerisms. yes ramsay does hate the word bastard. and the word whore is used by theon the most, and guess who is in stannis camp? Theon... he is leaving clues left and right and some cant see it

"Oh, leave him be," said Ramsay. "Just see to Blood. I rode the bastard hard."

Ramsay hates being reminded that he is a bastard, but there's nothing at all to suggest he has a problem with the word itself. He uses it casually, here.

I can say with 100000% the OP, myself and others are right, I cant tell how and why I know, but I do know and thats what matters, cant make a horse drink so not going to respond anymore, tried my best

Does your dad work for Nintendo, too?

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

The letter has been explained by Buried Treasure. It is a blackmail about an exchange of secrets. Ramsay believes that Jon is in possession of Jeyne and is in position to expose the deception. So he threatens to do the same with Mance and paint him as a liar. Of course, Jon, not having seen Jeyne, has no clue what he is talking about. There  several implications anf inferrences that can be made, but that is the heart of it.

I hadn't thought about it that way before. thanks. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly because Ramsay in truth doesn't feel an ounce of respect to women, hunts, rapes and flays them and yet he names his dogs after the women and never uses the word "whore" is what is so striking. Ramsay would call them "bitches" perhaps, but he does not call them whores. There's even an understandable reason for it: if he calls women whores, then his mother was a whore as well.

Giving characters their own "voice", their own speech mannerisms is something George excells in. When he has a character avoid a certain word in their personal choice of vocabulary, while someone else uses it all the time and has it as his top n1 word of choice for women in general then yes that is literary evidence. It's "how to write realistic dialogue 101". I'm pretty sure George has a character file including "speech patterns" and top 5 favourite words for main and supporting characters.

Ramsay would not suddenly start to use a word several times that he has not been known to use in his own letter. In a literary sense that is OOC, and George is not going to make a mistake like that.People trying to impersonate Ramsay would use the language they think Ramsay would use (on account of him liking to hunt, murder and flay women), but is actually closer to their own personal voice. Again that's "dialogue 101" as for example beginning authors tend to write characters using the author's language, instead of having the characters a unique voice.

This argument hinges on the assumption that Ramsay purposefully avoids using the word "whore". Unless you can back up that claim (your speculation that he doesn't want his mother to be a whore is just that - speculation), there's nothing striking or significant about a character using a previously unsaid word, especially if said character's dialogue makes up, like, 1% of the total dialogue in the books.

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

This argument hinges on the assumption that Ramsay purposefully avoids using the word "whore". Unless you can back up that claim (your speculation that he doesn't want his mother to be a whore is just that - speculation), there's nothing striking or significant about a character using a previously unsaid word, especially if said character's dialogue makes up, like, 1% of the total dialogue in the books.

It doesn't matter that it's only 1%. Even if a character has only 2 lines in all the books, it's beneficial to give him a distinct personal voice from other speakers (perfect example of this is Shitmouth with his Tourettes, or Pia's rapist who Jaime beheaded who's only line is "we all had her hunnerd times!").

And no, I don't have to prove that Ramsay avoids the word on purpose, because Ramsay probably doesn't even know himself he avoids it. Our personal "voice" is something that is partially subconscious anyway, just like we're only subconsciously aware of our friends having a distinct personal voice.

All I need to show is that George wrote Ramsay dialogue as not using that word, not when he's pretending to be Reek in aCoK, not when he's Ramsay in aDwD. The only time the word whore is used is in the Pink Letter and in a manner as if the author loves using that word to any woman. If the author is Ramsay and loves that word so much then George would have had Ramsay use it any circumstance that was even remotely appropriate for Ramsay to use - like when he talks about killing Barbrey Dustin, or reminding Theon of Kyra's fate, or when being welcomed by Theon in WF and offered the kennel's daughter, in the letter to Asha... Those would be typical situations where a person who loves to use the word whore for women (even to those who aren't whores), just as in the Pink letter, would in fact use it in dialogue. But the word just doesn't pop up in Ramsay's vocabulary, but then in the Pink Letter it's used almost gratuitously.

That just doesn't jibe, and in literature with an author as George who pays great personal distinct dialogue, yes that's evidence. 

 

[GloubieBoulga]

Quote

All I need to show is that George wrote Ramsay dialogue as not using that word, not when he's pretending to be Reek in aCoK, not when he's Ramsay in aDwD. The only time the word whore is used is in the Pink Letter and in a manner as if the author loves using that word to any woman. 

Perhaps he doesn't just have occasion or reason to say "whore"  when we see him on the scene.

"Whore" in the series is a commun word for "prostitute" (professionnal), and it occurs more than 300. Kyra or Barbrey Dustin aren't whores. Shall we suspect all the characters who employ this word to have scriven the pink letter ?

Here, the women with "Abel" are in fact whores for all the men at WInterfell : the whores who are following the armies, just like Shae is.  

 

Also, Jon has already received a letter from Ramsay, and this time, he has no doubt about its authenticity. 

[Greywater-Watch]

21 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

I can say with 100000% the OP, myself and others are right, I cant tell how and why I know, but I do know and thats what matters, cant make a horse drink so not going to respond anymore, tried my best

If I count the zeros correctly, you are about 10 times more sure about your theory of who wrote the Pink Letter, than you were sure about Theon being the Hodded Man (see your post:

Hooded Man of WF is 10000% Theon

Started by Jadakiss, Thursday at 3:14 PM)

I think the source of the Pink Letter is one of the nicests riddles in the novel (besides the Tower of Joy). All theories I have read about who might be the author (Stannis, Ramsay, Mance, Melisandre) have good arguments (as well as counter arguments) for their course. I still think Jon Snow himself should not be discarded as possible author.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 1.12.2016 at 6:15 AM, Nevets said:

We believe it because, while having Ramsay write the letter is somewhat unsatisfying and has certain problems associated with it, all of the other candidates are either lacking necessary knowledge, means, and/or motive.  Only Ramsay has all three.  That is why I believe Ramsay wrote it.

The black crows, however, keep bothering me. The phrase has been used by: Osha, Craster, Ygritte, Rattleshirt, Mance Rayder, Harma, Tormunds Giantsbane, Jon Snow... and the author of the Pink Letter. That's the complete list, I believe. The words "black crow" weren't, on the pages of the books, ever said south of the Wall until Lord Snow said them in Mole's Town to wildlings. "It’s us that keeps you safe, the black crows you despise”, was the actual wording, as if Jon made an intentional choice to speak wildling. He did, I believe.

The author made a deliberate effort to establish "black crow" as a uniquely wildling term. In four different books, eleven occurrences, eight different characters - nope, that is not accidental, and that is not casual. And then he put the "black crows" in the Pink Letter - for what purpose? I have yet to see a satisfying answer, if the letter is really written by Ramsay.

[GloubieBoulga]

Quote

The black crows, however, keep bothering me. The phrase has been used by: Osha, Craster, Ygritte, Rattleshirt, Mance Rayder, Harma, Tormunds Giantsbane, Jon Snow... and the author of the Pink Letter. That's the complete list, I believe. 

There is also peasants, during Arya's journey with Yoren (ACOK, Arya III)

Quote

"It's sweetcorn, better'n a stinking old black bird like you deserves," one of them answered roughly. "You get out of our field now, and take these sneaks and stabbers with you, or we'll stake you up in the corn to scare the other crows away."

Craster says also "black bird". 

And for example, Ygritte or Tormund or Craster say not only "black crow", but also "crow", without adjective. 

Other interesting thing : Dareon is called "black singer" by the Bravosii Whores, even is not black at all. 

Quote

It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna as his fingers danced across the harp strings. The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock. (Cat of the Canals, AFFC)

In these conditions, why "black crow" would be only used by people beyond-the-wall. The fact is also that "black crow" occurs more often with the wildlings because the narrativ arc with the Night Watchers is also the narrativ arc of the Wildlings

"Crow" is especially used as an insult or depreciative. Wildlings are fighting against "black brothers" from centuries at least, not the realm. Tyrion say "black brother" because he has no reason to insult the Night Watch. But Ramsay has some reasons to insult Jon Snow. He does with "bastard", and he does with "crow", "black crow" is a redondance also for bastard, because it is know even in the south of the Wall that bastard have black blood.

Oh yes, I know, Tormund says also "black bastard" and "crow" to his friend Jon Snow, but just have a look to the context, Tormund's character and his kind of humour. Surely, Ramsay is inviting Jon to a great party, just to see who have the biggest 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

 

1 minute ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Craster says also "black bird". 

And for example, Ygritte or Tormund or Craster say not only "black crow", but also "crow", without adjective. 

Other interesting thing : Dareon is called "black singer" by the Bravosii Whores, even is not black at all. 

"Black bird". "Black singer". Not "black crow".

1 minute ago, GloubieBoulga said:

In these conditions, why "black crow" would be only used by people beyond-the-wall.

It is, though.

It's not a natural way of speaking. "Black crow" is redundant, just like "white milk" or "wet water". It's a beyond-the-Wall colloquialism, not encountered among the kneelers. Until someone wrote the Pink Letter.

Which is curious.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Perhaps he doesn't just have occasion or reason to say "whore"  when we see him on the scene.

"Whore" in the series is a commun word for "prostitute" (professionnal), and it occurs more than 300. Kyra or Barbrey Dustin aren't whores. Shall we suspect all the characters who employ this word to have scriven the pink letter ?

Here, the women with "Abel" are in fact whores for all the men at WInterfell : the whores who are following the armies, just like Shae is.  

 

Also, Jon has already received a letter from Ramsay, and this time, he has no doubt about its authenticity. 

But some of  the woman called "whore" in the Pink Letter aren't "prostitutes" either... If Ramsay uses the word "whore" willy nilly in the Pink Letter to talk vicious of women just in general, then he would do so when he dismisses or talks about flaying or murdering women, such as Dustin, Kyra, etc. You conveniently forget that Mel is also called a "whore" in the letter. And in fact  the spearwives' professioin isn't prostitution. They are warrior women pretending to be washerwomen. If Ramsay killed them all and flayed them, he knows they're not actual washerwomen, and if as you propose he only uses "whore" in the professional sense and none other, then Ramsay wouldn't use it for them either, OR he would have applied it to Kyra. 

Jon doesn't know Ramsay, nor his speech mannerism. He never met him. He only has one letter from him before that, and there are noted differences to us readers that Jon does not seem to take into account. So, Jon's opinion is quite unreliable.

[GloubieBoulga]

"Black singer" is a diverting : as bird, the crow is also a singer, and no doubt that the whores in Braavos know very well the expression "black crow"; other way why keep "black" when Dareon isn't black at all ? It is sure that the whores in Braavos have seen a lot of Wildlings in their life and, they have them heard talking about "black crows" ^^

"Black bird" isn't exactly the same word, but in the following phrasis, the peasant speaks about the "others crows" (= he has already crows in front of him). So the link is clearly here. The sense is exactly the same. 

Without context, words have absolutely no signifcation. It matters to examine why and when Wildlings are saying "black crows", if it is all the time or if there are others expressions, if others people than Wildlings are speaking about the Night Watch or Nigtht Watchers, and the context of that, and if they have reason to insult them or not. 

 

Edit : 

Quote

But some of  the woman called "whore" in the Pink Letter aren't "prostitutes" either... If Ramsay uses the word "whore" willy nilly in the Pink Letter to talk vicious of women just in general, then he would do so when he dismisses or talks about flaying or murdering women, such as Dustin, Kyra, etc. You conveniently forget that Mel is also called a "whore" in the letter.

 

Mance's women aren't whores but they plaid oppenly the part of whores when they are at Winterfell. 

Mel is called "whore" because she notorious (=following the public rumor) beds with Stannis with the consequence that she is paid with some power. And concretly, she received politic power from Stannis. Exactly the same thing when Tyrion or Jaime are talking (or thinking) about Cersei like a whore : Cersei is bedding for some benefits, not for love. 

Nothing equivalent with lady Dustin, who has no known lover, or even Kyra, despite the fact she slept with Theon (she had no retribution), she was simply a villager in love with a fair lord. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

58 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

"Black singer" is a diverting : as bird, the crow is also a singer, and no doubt that the whores in Braavos know very well the expression "black crow"; other way why keep "black" when Dareon isn't black at all ? It is sure that the whores in Braavos have seen a lot of Wildlings in their life and, they have them heard talking about "black crows" ^^

"Black bird" isn't exactly the same word, but in the following phrasis, the peasant speaks about the "others crows" (= he has already crows in front of him). So the link is clearly here. The sense is exactly the same. 

They called Dareon "black singer" for the same reason Johnny Cash is "man is black". He wore black. (Well, Dareon changed his attire, but the legacy name kinda stuck).

And please, don't waste time and effort proving that the meaning is the same. I don't disagree with you here, it is the same. Just like when, if you want three glasses, you might show it extending your index, middle and ring fingers, or your thumb, index and middle finger. The meaning is the same, the concept of "three" is, after all, fairly fundamental, and the same in English and in German. but the gesture itself is different (not even completely - slightly different, is all), and that's important, and the difference inevitably leads to a basement flooded with blood (at least if Tarantino is directing).

I'm not talking about the ubiquitous nicknames, puns, insults, built around "black" or around "crow" - I'm talking specifically about the, exclusively wildling, term "black crow".

[Amris]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

*snip*

If Ramsay uses the word "whore" willy nilly in the Pink Letter to talk vicious of women just in general, then he would do so when he dismisses or talks about flaying or murdering women, such as Dustin, Kyra, etc.

*snip*

That is quite a logic leap you make there.

We have no evidence whatsoever for your claim that Ramsay uses the word 'whore' always in the same way and only for the same reasons. Thus whether he called Kyra a whore or not has absolutely no bearing on whether he is the author of the Pink Letter.

And an additional problem with your logic:

The Pink Letter was obviously meant to provoke Jon. So there was reason for Ramsay to use offensive wording (whore for instance) even if your assumption that he wouldn't use the same word in other circumstances was true. And it is completely irrelevant if the women mentioned really are whores or not. The letter is meant to make Jon mad, not to communicate an unbiased truth.

The same goes for the often cited use of the word bastard of course.

It seems to be a term that Ramsay disliked when used on himself. So from his perspective applying it to Jon in the Pink Letter must seem like just the thing to do to get Jon mad.