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Hackforth

Disappointing Revival?

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Nope, it was done well and very suspenseful.

As far as Davos initiating it, I've said for a long time that I didn't think Melisandre would resurrect him because she had no reason to do so...especially now that she had lost her faith, why would she attempt to bring him back after that?  So I like that it wasn't her idea to start with.  I like that it was only Ghost who saw him come back, too.

Can't wait to see the reaction to it next week.

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4 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

Nope, it was done well and very suspenseful.

As far as Davos initiating it, I've said for a long time that I didn't think Melisandre would resurrect him because she had no reason to do so...especially now that she had lost her faith, why would she attempt to bring him back after that?  So I like that it wasn't her idea to start with.  I like that it was only Ghost who saw him come back, too.

Can't wait to see the reaction to it next week.

Agreed. Also liked the fact that at the end of the ceremony, Mel was literally begging for her ceremony to work, saying "please" and all. I just hope he doesn't go the Beric/Stoneheart route and lose any part of himself- if that happens in the books too that would probably mean we won't get any Jon chapters in TWOW.

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The execution was definitely cliché : the "oh no it isn't working we're leaving...cue to resurrection" has been overdone.

As for the motivation : I don't get it. Why would Davos want to resurrect him (and think it possible in the first place) ? They wanted him back, but couldn't think of a sound reason/explanation for it. Why is Davos cheering Mel up ? Doesn't he know what she's done ? There is little reason as to why he suddenly is team Mel when he mistrusted her for so long.

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I was fine with it.  I thought it made sense to take this approach.  Clearly Mel is losing faith not only in her religion but herself.  To have her have flashbacks or any "AH HA" moments would be so cliche.  I think the man who has denied her this entire time, Davos, for him to approach her seeking her assistance was what made most sense.  This would give her that last bit of confidence, like "Hey this freaking guy wanted me thrown away eons ago, and he believes I can save someone and he is reaching out for help this has to mean something, lets go for it."  I think having Davos comes to her gives her the confidence to believe in herself once again whereas if it was someone else it wouldn't have been enough to convince her.

The actual resurrection scene, I was OK with. Castle Black is in shambles at the moment, to go to the extent of setting him up to be burnt and what have you would be a bit unrealistic at the time considering the circumstances.

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I was also fine with it.  Some type of massive burning of Jon Snow with him walking out of the fire would have been way over the top and way too much like Dany.  Targs are not fire proof, the last thing we need is yet another one pulling that stunt to fuel the fire of conjecture on that belief.  I'm glad they kept it subtle.  

I'd also agree that Davos asking Mel for help gave her the confidence she needed.

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A little premature to conclude anything, until we know how/if? Jon is changed by the experience we can't say whether it's unerwhelming or not.

It does feel a little underwhelming right now but mostly because the show went for the cliff hanging ending.

Anybody who's read my comments on the show knows I'm no show apologist.  But I'll hold off judgement on this until I know more.

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The only problem I had with it was Davos's motivations, like others have said, but other than that, I was fine with it. I knew he was coming back, having read the books and paid attention to filming spoilers, so I'm glad they didn't postpone it for very long.  I'm also glad they kept it simple. If you think about it, that's really the only way they could have brought Jon back, because it's the only precedent that has been set in earlier seasons. Any other method or giant spectacle would have felt like Deus Ex Machina.

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It's supposed to be a FANTASY show. This important character dies, and was brought back to life and . . . nothing. Boring.

Of course, with the media-pandering that went with it, "Oh, no, he's dead;" "He's dead;" "I'm dead, believe me" - all that bull was just bull and it was obvious bull. How anyone could have believed otherwise astounds me.

Now, they've removed any kind of trust there might been for the show, the actors and anyone reporting on it. It's all just spin and bull.

Underdone and underwhelming. Period.

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3 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

The execution was definitely cliché : the "oh no it isn't working we're leaving...cue to resurrection" has been overdone.

As for the motivation : I don't get it. Why would Davos want to resurrect him (and think it possible in the first place) ? They wanted him back, but couldn't think of a sound reason/explanation for it. Why is Davos cheering Mel up ? Doesn't he know what she's done ? There is little reason as to why he suddenly is team Mel when he mistrusted her for so long.

He didn't know if resurrection was possible hence he asked her if it was. 'Can it be done?' is what he said.

He saw her work her magic. It's only natural he'd consider something like this. And he doesn't have to like her or whatever to see her as useful and cooperate with her when it suits him. 

As for his actions with regard to Jon. Those who question them haven't paid much attention to the previous episodes. It's all there.

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The scene was good if you add/remove some things.

1)Remove Shireen Burning. Well Daavos didnt see that. He just knows she died. But he knows she mislead Stannis. So should never ask for help

2) A passing comment like, "the dude is dead. He is the only person who cared about your white walker shit..ive seen you do stuff. If you can , rescue him...bye bye"

And Mel walks upto Jon alonr and does it.

Not like the showed her, now as a makeup/hair stylist. :/

3) Jon was not burnt and brought back. Hence by logic he is just another normal dude (another dead person coming back soon..shhh). So it doesnt imply r+l=j. But we know r+l=j, so the show runners as usual will have no consistency when it is shown.

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38 minutes ago, robasp2 said:
38 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

The scene was good if you add/remove some things.

1)Remove Shireen Burning. Well Daavos didnt see that. He just knows she died. But he knows she mislead Stannis. So should never ask for help

2) A passing comment like, "the dude is dead. He is the only person who cared about your white walker shit..ive seen you do stuff. If you can , rescue him...bye bye"

And Mel walks upto Jon alonr and does it.

Not like the showed her, now as a makeup/hair stylist. :/

3) Jon was not burnt and brought back. Hence by logic he is just another normal dude (another dead person coming back soon..shhh). So it doesnt imply r+l=j. But we know r+l=j, so the show runners as usual will have no consistency when it is shown.

 

Yes, because you know for a fact how Jon is brought back in the book and that it involves pyre. Did you forget Targaryens aren't immune to fire?

And why does his revival need to imply RLJ? It doesn't need to. It's not inconsistent for him to come back with the help of Mel/Lord of Light and then be revealed as R and L's. His resurrection involving ice and fire is just fans' wishful thinking.

Being revived the way he was he was doesn't make him just another normal dude because Lord of Light doesn't revive just anyone. If that were the case, Red Priests would be reviving people left right and centre.

Did you want some flashy and corny scene involving fire, The Wall, smoke, salt, red star and stone dragons? Maybe even Bloodraven and Bran, despite the fact it's never been set up they have that kind of power? Or did you want Jon to become Daenerys 2.0 with the show having an unnecessary repeat of what we saw in season 1, which would diminish Dany's feat?

People tend to build entire mythos around unsolved plot developments and overcomplicate things. They are also too hung up on the prophecies, which the show has never been big on.

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6 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'm often defending the show and pointing out the logical explanations for things. However I don't think the show has done a good job of establishing WHY Davos is so interested in Jon or why he would consider the idea of bringing him back from the dead. That he simply came up with the idea out of nowhere seemed a bit strange. Of all the solutions to your problems you could come up with, why would you consider the possibility of bringing back some guy who'd died as the one you'd prefer. 

I fully agree with you and do so coming from the same standpoint. However, having had time to think about it, the following came to mind. Firstly, Davos was the man instrumental in bringing Stannis to the wall. He saw and believed the danger that the white walkers represented and did so only based on Jon's written pleas to the south for help. It was he that read the ravengram from Jon and persuaded Stannis to go North. From that point of view he was invested in the coming struggle.

Secondly, Stannis sent him to Castle Black before the battle, ostensibly to work with Jon but obviously this was a pretext; one that Davos is still not aware of. As far as he's concerned, Stannis and his family were killed by the Boltons.

Thirdly. Once Jon was dead, there was no-one left to lead the fight against the white walkers. Jon has not only foreseen the danger but had plans in place to hold the wall. Alliser Thorne didn't believe in teh threat and was completely blinkered in his view of what the job of the Nights Watch was: Wildlings, wildlings and wildlings. There was going to be no leadership to be found in that quarter,

Fouthly, Melisandre was there, she was clearly a powerful witch and although he doesn't have any real faith, he knows what he's seen her do and that she had Stannis' best interests at heart. The defence of the wall was something Stannis wanted and Meilsandre was the only person left who could help him. If she had turned around and said it wasn't possible, that would have been the end of the story.

Still weak but Davos had no-one else to turn to.

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1 hour ago, Darksky said:

He didn't know if resurrection was possible hence he asked her if it was. 'Can it be done?' is what he said.

He saw her work her magic. It's only natural he'd consider something like this. And he doesn't have to like her or whatever to see her as useful and cooperate with her when it suits him. 

As for his actions with regard to Jon. Those who question them haven't paid much attention to the previous episodes. It's all there.

I'm sure you'll be so kind as to explain it to me.

As for the rest, resurrection is an entire beast altogether. It is a big deal, and not something someone should randomly bring up even though he's never witnessed it. Having seen Mel do her mojo once, and for something unrelated, doesn't cut it.

 And again, why does he want Jon back ? What can he do for them ? Why is Davos not asking about Shireen or Stannis ? Why didn't he try to kill Mel when he had the chance ?

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5 hours ago, the tower of albion said:

Not Minor wounds - coma inducing wounds me thinks. 

Perhaps. But there have been very lengthy arguments laid out to suggest otherwise. I won't rehash those here. Either way hopefully we will find out soon....

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9 hours ago, Bastard of the Dreadfort said:

Has anyone seen the preview for next episode? (Rhetorical question, I know). *Spoilers if not*

You know that opening shot of Jon sitting up from the back...?

Imagine if THAT was the final shot of the last episode. Jon rising slowly from the slab, but only seen from the back, with NO sudden close up of him gasping back to life, so the viewer doesn't know if he's a wight OR truly himself.

THAT would have been a cliffhanger!

 

This.

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10 hours ago, Darksky said:

Take it up with Martin. He made it predictable. Does anyone actually believe Jon's not coming back in the books? The whole Jon's arc in Dance and what's coming is so predictable.

But predictable doesn't equal bad. A story doesn't have to be always surprising and shocking to be good.

Anticlimatic? Again, Martin's fault. He came up with that resurrection by R'hllor. Thoros and Beric, remember them? Just a few words of prayer and voila!

Davos had lost his son, Shireen and Stannis. He's a follower, he needs someone to follow and advise, and he took a liking to Jon last season. Like Liam said, Davos is drawn to Jon, even if he doesn't realise it, he admires him as a leader and as an honourable, honest person with a good moral code. Jon's like Davos. I totally understand why show Davos is the way he is regarding Jon. They set it up last season.

Honestly, most of the things people criticise have a valid explanation. They just refuse to even consider it.

 

Again, Martin.  Did Thoros have to sacrifice anything to revive Beric six times?

It's curious how people tend to go so far as to criticise the show even about things they do that are canon, while accepting that canon blindly in the books. Happens a lot. Talk about double standards.

 

I prefer the quiet revival scene, especially with just Ghost present, to some flashy, cheesy one. And resurrection by Bran and Bloodraven would be deus ex machina. The worst would be Jon warging upon death, then being guided back to his dead and about to be resurrected body. Would there be a Harry Potter-style meeting between Jon and Bran? Let's not overdo the magical events. Given that the canon stresses that  once the body dies, it's impossible to go back after warging, if Martin does that in Winds, it will be an ass-pull.

Seriously ? This boring resurrection is Martin's fault ? Plot isn't only about hitting the points its about giving them context and making them work and making them powerful. This resurrection was like folding laundry it was so boring. Don't blame Martin. Ya everyone knew he was going to come back, that doesn't mean it won't be exciting in the book. 

There are so many more ways to make this interesting, but a theory of mine is this: Jon spends his time dead in Ghost's body which already makes this process of events more interesting. Also, Thoros gave Beric the "kiss" of life. And then in book 3 Beric uses the kiss of life to revive Catelyn. Thus using the magic and giving up his life. Wouldn't it be AWESOME if Catelyn went to the wall and gave the kiss of life to Jon to bring him back? Thus giving importance to a character that everyone thought was a waste of page space (Lady Stoneheart) and also being powerful due to her previous hate for Jon and giving up her life for him. THAT would be pretty exciting if you ask me. Maybe there's tons of kinks to get the story there, but still, I have no doubt that Martin will come up with something better than that bore-fest I saw on screen on Sunday. 

And ya maybe Davos would want to follow Jon, but none of that has been explained in the show. That character growth, the loss of Stannis and the realization that he needs to find another leader to follow was never shown to us. He doesn't even MENTION Stannis or Shireen. He just totally forgets them and moves along. How can that not bother you ? Maybe you just don't care about consistent characterization but some of us do and it is a valid criticism.

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I wasn't expecting a complicated or flashy ritual, so this was about how I'd imagined it. I liked the rituals that Mel preformed - cutting and washing his hair, cleaning his body. Those are believable funeral rites, which is what brings Beric back to life, after all, run of the mill prayer for the dead unexpectedly imbued with power.

As has been said, I wasn't fond of Davos' part in this. Maybe if he'd even said to her 'Stannis told me about Beric and Thoros, was that true?' Something that doesn't make it seem like it just comes out of the blue because resurrection is huge and not like shadow babies and poison immunity. Why didn't he ask her if she could smite their enemies with lightning? Hey, you're magic - turn back time and bring back Stannis and Shireen.

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It was terrible. "Here have a wash and haircut you'll be as good as new." The fact that Melisandre didnt think of this and Davos had to act of character with how the show has potrayed him didnt help.

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12 hours ago, Darksky said:

Take it up with Martin. He made it predictable. Does anyone actually believe Jon's not coming back in the books? The whole Jon's arc in Dance and what's coming is so predictable.

But predictable doesn't equal bad. A story doesn't have to be always surprising and shocking to be good.

Anticlimatic? Again, Martin's fault. He came up with that resurrection by R'hllor. Thoros and Beric, remember them? Just a few words of prayer and voila!

Davos had lost his son, Shireen and Stannis. He's a follower, he needs someone to follow and advise, and he took a liking to Jon last season. Like Liam said, Davos is drawn to Jon, even if he doesn't realise it, he admires him as a leader and as an honourable, honest person with a good moral code. Jon's like Davos. I totally understand why show Davos is the way he is regarding Jon. They set it up last season.

Honestly, most of the things people criticise have a valid explanation. They just refuse to even consider it.

 

Again, Martin.  Did Thoros have to sacrifice anything to revive Beric six times?

It's curious how people tend to go so far as to criticise the show even about things they do that are canon, while accepting that canon blindly in the books. Happens a lot. Talk about double standards.

 

I prefer the quiet revival scene, especially with just Ghost present, to some flashy, cheesy one. And resurrection by Bran and Bloodraven would be deus ex machina. The worst would be Jon warging upon death, then being guided back to his dead and about to be resurrected body. Would there be a Harry Potter-style meeting between Jon and Bran? Let's not overdo the magical events. Given that the canon stresses that  once the body dies, it's impossible to go back after warging, if Martin does that in Winds, it will be an ass-pull.

Actually you're wrong. 

There is no praying to revive Beric. Thoros gives Beric "The Last Kiss" which is essentially the red priest breathing fire into the deceased person's body. Certainly a lot more cinematic than praying. It's more like a spell than a prayer. 

And actually Thoroa did have to sacrifice his life force to revive Beric who came back with less every time. Thoroa even mentions a seventh resurrection could mean the end of both of them.

And of course, it's obvious that Jon came back. GRRM made it purposefully obvious that he'll come back. I don't think he was expecting you to think he was dead for good. 

There's an interview around where someone asks him why he killed Jon Snow and GRRM's response "oh so you think he's dead, do you?"

Jon's death is to (1) allow the Wall to self destruct (2) change Jon's character into something else 

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