DCEU: The Wings of Liberty Have Lost Some Feathers

[Eggegg]

36 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I think the original comics were fetish-wear, but that's only based on what I've heard in podcasts lately. I agree about Gadot. I was trying out a new podcast called Chapo Traphouse or something, and I happened to listen to their Wonder Woman review. Not only did they act like she was the worst actor, but they were extraordinarily out of touch with the theme of the film. Either way, listening to these people berate her acting and screen presence was almost shocking--those were things I never questioned for a moment. She was awesome. I think these three were the last three holdouts from the time when she was cast and everyone flipped out. (Just an aside: I summarily unsubscribed from that podcast--I can handle dissenting views, but this one seemed ethnocentric and mean spirited)

I had to go looking for this podcast.. and found it, scanned through it briefly, and gave up. I don't know how people manage to listen to these rambling irritating nobodies blather on for over an hour. 

I don't even particularly like Wonder Woman as a movie, it has a ton of problems and seems to be highly rated outside of any real quality it has on its own, but most of their criticisms seemed barbed and just spiteful in a way I can't get on board with. ( They seem to have real issues with Israel or something?!)

[red snow]

4 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

I think the original comics were fetish-wear, but that's only based on what I've heard in podcasts lately. I agree about Gadot. I was trying out a new podcast called Chapo Traphouse or something, and I happened to listen to their Wonder Woman review. Not only did they act like she was the worst actor, but they were extraordinarily out of touch with the theme of the film. Either way, listening to these people berate her acting and screen presence was almost shocking--those were things I never questioned for a moment. She was awesome. I think these three were the last three holdouts from the time when she was cast and everyone flipped out. (Just an aside: I summarily unsubscribed from that podcast--I can handle dissenting views, but this one seemed ethnocentric and mean spirited)

 

So yeah, this guy Marston who created her was really something. A psychologist hired by DC in the 1940s to create a female character. He wanted to create one who didn't punch her way through problems but solved problems the way a woman did. You know, love, making people tell the truth, and stuff that mom's are good at I guess? I suppose I shouldn't be so hard on the guy as he was going with aspects of what was considered empowering at the time, but he sure did fetishize her costume by playing up to the bondage imagery of the time.

There's a bipoic just come out about Marston and his works. It's getting good reviews and he seemed quite a character leaving in a 3 unit relationship, inventing the lie detector (guess that's where the lassoo came in) and creating wonder woman. I think I'll watch it when it hits amazon/netflix.

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

6 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I had to go looking for this podcast.. and found it, scanned through it briefly, and gave up. I don't know how people manage to listen to these rambling irritating nobodies blather on for over an hour. 

I don't even particularly like Wonder Woman as a movie, it has a ton of problems and seems to be highly rated outside of any real quality it has on its own, but most of their criticisms seemed barbed and just spiteful in a way I can't get on board with. ( They seem to have real issues with Israel or something?!)

Yeah, it's really fucked up, and the sad thing is someone told me, "hey, check that podcast out, they're totally open-minded, leftist thinkers like you." If this is how I'm coming off, I need to rethink my approach to social situations. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

There's a bipoic just come out about Marston and his works. It's getting good reviews and he seemed quite a character leaving in a 3 unit relationship, inventing the lie detector (guess that's where the lassoo came in) and creating wonder woman. I think I'll watch it when it hits amazon/netflix.

 

It looks really interesting, I think. Marston's family is really hostile to it though as they hate the portrayal of the 3 unit relationship, but most sources say that's not a fabrication. I don't know. I suppose you take any biopic with a grain of salt.

[red snow]

39 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

It looks really interesting, I think. Marston's family is really hostile to it though as they hate the portrayal of the 3 unit relationship, but most sources say that's not a fabrication. I don't know. I suppose you take any biopic with a grain of salt.

I guess it all depends on the sources that are chosen and the writer/directors POV/bias.

I wonder whether the hostility is aligned with a particular mother to his kids? eg one side might prefer to sideline the other non Marston's in case there's any royalty divisions. Reading the wiki page it seems the likely problem is not with the 3 unit family but the suggestion the women were loves too. I guess that may well be innacurate and several claim they were more like sisters. I guess that would be annoying and could well be modern day sensibilities (where the idea of non-sexual relationships seens unthinkable) projecting onto the past.

[Mexal]

I saw it last night at a free screening. It did not work for me. Some spoilers below.

Steppenwolf was a horrible CGI villain that shows up, proclaims his evilness, does a little fighting, then disappears again. He's not scary, he has very limited backstory and his entire goal is put together mysterious doo daa to annihilate the world? It's so stupid.

The fight scenes have very little stakes to them. This is a super hero problem but it always feels worse here. People smash through everything and anything and get right back up. 

Superman is cheat mode. When he finally comes back, there is even a point where he runs off in the middle of the climatic fight to go save some civilians because he knows he can. it's so dumb.

I liked Aquaman. I like Wonder Woman. Batman was fine. I didn't love the Flash though I know some people will. The socially awkward, no friend shtick fell flat most of the time, mostly because I've seen a few seasons of the CW Flash where he's a smart, normal human being .The difference here was jarring.

Tonally, it was a mess. It's very clearly a Zack Snyder film but there are definitely elements of Whedon in here that felt forced and out of place (quips that just didn't work for me). It could be because I saw Thor on Saturday, which I found genuinely funny, even if not all the jokes landed, I don't know. There were a few moments where I chuckled though.

All in all, there are some entertaining moments and I'm sure some people here might think it's ok. It was definitely better than Batman vs Superman but falls way short of what I'd consider a good movie.

[The Anti-Targ]

Surely one of the problems of Justice League is the introduction of 3 entirely new "lead" characters in an ensemble movie. Compare to the first Avengers movie: We'd already had Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Thor, and Black Widow was introduced to us in Iron Man 2. And Loki was also already known to us. We also already knew Nick Fury, and Agent Coulsen and that there was this govt entity called S.H.I.E.L.D. Avengers only introduced* one new hero, and that was Hawkeye, who spent half the movie under the influence and control of Loki. 

There are possibly other flaws, and possibly more significant flaws, but I don't think it was a good idea to give 3 heroes and introduction in this movie.

 

Apparently he was thin Thor, but don't remember.

[The Anti-Targ]

8 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I had to go looking for this podcast.. and found it, scanned through it briefly, and gave up. I don't know how people manage to listen to these rambling irritating nobodies blather on for over an hour. 

I don't even particularly like Wonder Woman as a movie, it has a ton of problems and seems to be highly rated outside of any real quality it has on its own, but most of their criticisms seemed barbed and just spiteful in a way I can't get on board with. ( They seem to have real issues with Israel or something?!)

I think WW got some probably a 0.5 to 1 point boost from critics because there were low expectations both because there was concertn about WW as a movie itself and because recent DC movies bombed to a lesser or greater extent with critics. So the movie was better than expected and better than recent DCEU movies, and thus it got more praise than it should have.

I still liked a lot, so I'm not going to say it was overrated to a great extent.

If those pod casters were left politically and that's part of their schtick, then sure I think they will be pretty strongly anti-Israel and this will be influencing their attitude towards Gal. If I have a personal bias against an actor, for whatever reason, then I will look for reasons to confirm that bias to diminish their performance. Like there are some actors a lot of people think are pretty good, but something just rubs me the wrong way with them, and I just never really enjoy any of their work, and I am almost never sympathetic to their character even when you are meat to be totally on their side. 

 

[williamjm]

The current Rotten Tomatoes score for Justice League is an improvement on Batman vs Superman and Suicide Squad, but not a particularly big improvement standing at 37%.

[Kalbear]

I strongly suspect that Lego Batman will continue to be the best DC superhero story so far done. 

[The Anti-Targ]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I strongly suspect that Lego Batman will continue to be the best DC superhero story so far done. 

On a Rotten Tomatoes basis The Dark Knight beats it. So at least there's that to keep live action DC fans happy.

[Calibandar]

So far I'd rate them as:

1) Man of Steel ( Almost entirely excellent)

2) Batman vs Superman ( has its moments but not great overall)

3) Wonder Woman ( Ok opening, poor denouement)

I'd hope for Justice League to go between 1 and 2.

 

[Eggegg]

17 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

So far I'd rate them as:

1) Man of Steel ( Almost entirely excellent)

2) Batman vs Superman ( has its moments but not great overall)

3) Wonder Woman ( Ok opening, poor denouement)

I'd hope for Justice League to go between 1 and 2.

 

Ouch. Thats harsh on WW.

If I was gonna rank them it would go, for the post Dark Knight movies:

1) Man of Steel ( I really like it, although I understand its criticisms)
2) Wonder Woman ( Like you said, good opening, but pretty stupid after that and is really pretty damn average)
.
.
.
.
.
.
3) BVS - A mostly horrible movie which descends in to a full grown turd by the end. Its only saving grace is the occasional good Batman scene.
.
.
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4) Suicide Squad - Maybe one of the worst movies I've ever seen.

 

[Red Tiger]

The only live action DC movie I like so far is Wonder Woman. Considering everything im hearing and Zack Snyder being behind this, im not going to see Justice League.

[Mexal]

6 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

The only live action DC movie I like so far is Wonder Woman. Considering everything im hearing and Zack Snyder being behind this, im not going to see Justice League.

Probably for the best. I'd wait for the video. Wonder Woman is infinitely better.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

16 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I think WW got some probably a 0.5 to 1 point boost from critics because there were low expectations both because there was concertn about WW as a movie itself and because recent DC movies bombed to a lesser or greater extent with critics. So the movie was better than expected and better than recent DCEU movies, and thus it got more praise than it should have.

I still liked a lot, so I'm not going to say it was overrated to a great extent.

If those pod casters were left politically and that's part of their schtick, then sure I think they will be pretty strongly anti-Israel and this will be influencing their attitude towards Gal. If I have a personal bias against an actor, for whatever reason, then I will look for reasons to confirm that bias to diminish their performance. Like there are some actors a lot of people think are pretty good, but something just rubs me the wrong way with them, and I just never really enjoy any of their work, and I am almost never sympathetic to their character even when you are meat to be totally on their side. 

 

Are people really criticizing Gal Gadot because she is from Israel?  What the hell?  You hold someone personally responsible for being from a particular nation of origin as though that individual can do anything, by themselves, to change that nations' policies?  What a load of crap.

[polishgenius]

14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Are people really criticizing Gal Gadot because she is from Israel?  What the hell?  You hold someone personally responsible for being from a particular nation of origin as though that individual can do anything, by themselves, to change that nations' policies?  What a load of crap.

 

Well, it's more that she's said things in the past that seem to indicate support for some of those policies or at least willful blindness to the harm they're causing, although it does all seem to come back to one tweet.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Well, it's more that she's said things in the past that seem to indicate support for some of those policies or at least willful blindness to the harm they're causing, although it does all seem to come back to one tweet.

Hamas is hardly a group of heroic freedom fighters.  Given her background I don't have much problem with that tweet even if I don't always support Israel's responses to Hamas.

[Eggegg]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Hamas is hardly a group of heroic freedom fighters.  Given her background I don't have much problem with that tweet even if I don't always support Israel's responses to Hamas.

Yeah her response and opinions are hardly unusual for someone from Israel, it would be more shocking if she was pro Hamas!

[polishgenius]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Hamas is hardly a group of heroic freedom fighters.  Given her background I don't have much problem with that tweet even if I don't always support Israel's responses to Hamas.

Nobody says they were. The problem with that tweet is that it appears to be blaming the deaths of women and children at the IDF's hands entirely on Hamas even if it was the IDF that killed them.

I understand her response, given her background, but I don't like it much. It's not enough of a thing to be putting me off being a fan of her, but it's not a good look.